Enterprise 11/28
12-04-01 | 09:47 PM
#54
Originally posted by strife
I still stand by this statement
I still stand by this statement
das
12-05-01 | 01:45 AM
#55
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From: Bartertown due to it having a better economy than where I really live.
some of those guys are even working on warp theory
Originally posted by das Monkey
You'll stand alone. It's a TV show. They sometimes make dramatic choices over those of science. But no show has been more faithful or inspiring to genuine science as Star Trek, especially before Braga got his limited brain into the mix. There's a reason that Hawking and Asimov and Feynman and Clarke and Kamen and countless others leading the way are massive Star Trek fans.
das
You'll stand alone. It's a TV show. They sometimes make dramatic choices over those of science. But no show has been more faithful or inspiring to genuine science as Star Trek, especially before Braga got his limited brain into the mix. There's a reason that Hawking and Asimov and Feynman and Clarke and Kamen and countless others leading the way are massive Star Trek fans.
das
12-05-01 | 01:44 PM
#56
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From: Right now, my location is DVDTalk, but then again, you should already know that, shouldn't you?
Originally posted by Wizdar:
I’m not buying the Enterprise blasting air into the hold to compensate. There would be a device to realize that the doors had been opened and thus prevent that from happening. Even before that, the act of opening the doors (as opposed to an accident/explosion) would also include a cut-off for the air supply.
All well and good, except that it seems logical and probable to me that the ENTERPRISE's interior sensors also are capable of registering that, even though the doors were opened, there are still living beings in the hold. In an effort to keep said beings alive, I feel that the ENTERPRISE would have been programmed to blast air into the hold at a rate at least near-equal with the rate of escaping oxygen. Though this could actually be counteractive in terms of perhaps accidentally blowing a person out of the opening in the hold, it's obviously better than the alternative. Another thing to keep in mind that defends my hypothesis is that, if there was no air left in the hold, just the vacuum of space, then, when Archer opened the door to ENTERPRISE's interior to escape the compromised shuttlebay, the blast of air that would have rushed out of the oxygenated room on the other side into the airless hold would have likely blown Archer out in to space or, if we cut a little scientific slack, at least visibly tussled his hair, neither of which occured, indicating that the difference in pressure between the two rooms was much closer than total vacuum vs. oxygenated Earth-style, which could only be possible if ENTERPRISE was actively trying to fill the shuttlebay with replacement air.
Therefore, the rest of your most excellent (but slightly flawed) argument doesn’t work. But given the time and effort you put into it, I thought it courteous to go with your reasoning and see where it led, rather than shoot it down completely and possibly cause hurt feelings.
Hurt feelings? From a conversation this nerdy? It is to laugh...
However, continuing from this shaky foundation: First, the blast effect you cling to would have surely prevented him from standing at the open doors for a moment before launching himself into the void. So the lack of control you mention would be inconsistent.
But where is the replacement air coming from? If it is being blasted in from vents straight over the open shuttlebay doors, and the Suliban is on the outer edge of the room, along the catwalk, he may very possibly be outside of the perimeter of the downward force, in an air-pocket, so to speak. Indeed, in this position, the force of the downward propelled air might actually have pushed the Suliban backward, toward the wall, forcing him to actively jump into the column of downward wind force. Then, once inside the wind tunnel, we go to...
Second, the arms would also be subject to the same force. It's not as if he's being hit in only one area, as your statement would lead me to believe. [If you want to talk about distribution of force vs mass vs surface area, we'll surely see page 3 in no time]
The force wouldn't be identical throughout the column of air pressing down on him. If we assume there is a vent directly above forcing air downward, the force of the blast would be most intense at the center of the column, which would likely coorelate with the center of the Suliban's back, as the force of air currents would have either migrated him to the center of the column or thrown him outside of the column entirely (the latter of which obviously did not take place). Spiraling out from that center point, the force of dissipating air would have become progressively lesser; therefore, the greatest force would have been centered on the SUliban's solar-plexus, with lesser force coming down on his extremities and even lesser force coming down around the near perimeter.
And third, having myself experienced the joy of leaving the relative calm of the interior of an aircraft in flight to encounter the forces on the outside in an instant, I can say with certainty that there is no flapping about like a loose piece of paper. 120 MPH (indeed, 200 MPH at times) is quite manageable.
Having trouble following what assertion of mine this statement is targeted at. If your use of the word "paper" is meant as a counter-illustration of my example of pressing down on a piece of paper over a sink hole, then it would appear you've radically misunderstood what concept of physics I sought to illustrate. If not, please clarify.
As for the change in direction, it may very well be just a change in camera angle. But what purpose would there be to change position from a normal free-fall position to a “tracking” position and at the same time show a change in direction if not to give the illusion of forward motion?
The only sense I got from that scene was that the Suliban knew his ship was below the hold, and he threw himself out of the shuttlebay to sail down to a point where he would be within rescue range. Any changes in direction appear to be brought about simply due to artistic choices via alteration of camera angle. Can you clarify again if you have a different take on this scene? Is your implication that the Suliban, without any source of transportation, altered his trajectory beyond the simple push and pull of escaping air currents? If so, I highly disagree with your visual understanding of the scene.
Damn, I've just got geek-boy stamped all over my head in shining red letters today, don't I?
I’m not buying the Enterprise blasting air into the hold to compensate. There would be a device to realize that the doors had been opened and thus prevent that from happening. Even before that, the act of opening the doors (as opposed to an accident/explosion) would also include a cut-off for the air supply.
All well and good, except that it seems logical and probable to me that the ENTERPRISE's interior sensors also are capable of registering that, even though the doors were opened, there are still living beings in the hold. In an effort to keep said beings alive, I feel that the ENTERPRISE would have been programmed to blast air into the hold at a rate at least near-equal with the rate of escaping oxygen. Though this could actually be counteractive in terms of perhaps accidentally blowing a person out of the opening in the hold, it's obviously better than the alternative. Another thing to keep in mind that defends my hypothesis is that, if there was no air left in the hold, just the vacuum of space, then, when Archer opened the door to ENTERPRISE's interior to escape the compromised shuttlebay, the blast of air that would have rushed out of the oxygenated room on the other side into the airless hold would have likely blown Archer out in to space or, if we cut a little scientific slack, at least visibly tussled his hair, neither of which occured, indicating that the difference in pressure between the two rooms was much closer than total vacuum vs. oxygenated Earth-style, which could only be possible if ENTERPRISE was actively trying to fill the shuttlebay with replacement air.
Therefore, the rest of your most excellent (but slightly flawed) argument doesn’t work. But given the time and effort you put into it, I thought it courteous to go with your reasoning and see where it led, rather than shoot it down completely and possibly cause hurt feelings.
Hurt feelings? From a conversation this nerdy? It is to laugh...
However, continuing from this shaky foundation: First, the blast effect you cling to would have surely prevented him from standing at the open doors for a moment before launching himself into the void. So the lack of control you mention would be inconsistent.
But where is the replacement air coming from? If it is being blasted in from vents straight over the open shuttlebay doors, and the Suliban is on the outer edge of the room, along the catwalk, he may very possibly be outside of the perimeter of the downward force, in an air-pocket, so to speak. Indeed, in this position, the force of the downward propelled air might actually have pushed the Suliban backward, toward the wall, forcing him to actively jump into the column of downward wind force. Then, once inside the wind tunnel, we go to...
Second, the arms would also be subject to the same force. It's not as if he's being hit in only one area, as your statement would lead me to believe. [If you want to talk about distribution of force vs mass vs surface area, we'll surely see page 3 in no time]
The force wouldn't be identical throughout the column of air pressing down on him. If we assume there is a vent directly above forcing air downward, the force of the blast would be most intense at the center of the column, which would likely coorelate with the center of the Suliban's back, as the force of air currents would have either migrated him to the center of the column or thrown him outside of the column entirely (the latter of which obviously did not take place). Spiraling out from that center point, the force of dissipating air would have become progressively lesser; therefore, the greatest force would have been centered on the SUliban's solar-plexus, with lesser force coming down on his extremities and even lesser force coming down around the near perimeter.
And third, having myself experienced the joy of leaving the relative calm of the interior of an aircraft in flight to encounter the forces on the outside in an instant, I can say with certainty that there is no flapping about like a loose piece of paper. 120 MPH (indeed, 200 MPH at times) is quite manageable.
Having trouble following what assertion of mine this statement is targeted at. If your use of the word "paper" is meant as a counter-illustration of my example of pressing down on a piece of paper over a sink hole, then it would appear you've radically misunderstood what concept of physics I sought to illustrate. If not, please clarify.
As for the change in direction, it may very well be just a change in camera angle. But what purpose would there be to change position from a normal free-fall position to a “tracking” position and at the same time show a change in direction if not to give the illusion of forward motion?
The only sense I got from that scene was that the Suliban knew his ship was below the hold, and he threw himself out of the shuttlebay to sail down to a point where he would be within rescue range. Any changes in direction appear to be brought about simply due to artistic choices via alteration of camera angle. Can you clarify again if you have a different take on this scene? Is your implication that the Suliban, without any source of transportation, altered his trajectory beyond the simple push and pull of escaping air currents? If so, I highly disagree with your visual understanding of the scene.
Damn, I've just got geek-boy stamped all over my head in shining red letters today, don't I?
12-05-01 | 02:16 PM
#57
Originally posted by Filmmaker
Damn, I've just got geek-boy stamped all over my head in shining red letters today, don't I?
I wouldn't say that. OK, yeah, I would.
das
Damn, I've just got geek-boy stamped all over my head in shining red letters today, don't I?
I wouldn't say that. OK, yeah, I would.
das
12-05-01 | 03:22 PM
#58
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Onward to page 3!
Originally posted by Filmmaker
Hurt feelings? From a conversation this nerdy? It is to laugh...
Hurt feelings? From a conversation this nerdy? It is to laugh...
…it seems logical and probable to me that the ENTERPRISE's interior sensors also are capable of registering that, even though the doors were opened, there are still living beings in the hold
…and to determine what manner of dress the occupant was wearing? What if it happened to be a spacesuit?
What if the occupant didn’t want to be blown all over the place? You’re gasping for breath with that statement.Though this could actually be counteractive in terms of perhaps accidentally blowing a person out of the opening in the hold, [well, DUH!] it's obviously better than the alternative.
What alternative is it that you imply? That a person stupid enough to be in the bay at the time the doors are opened into space would want to be surrounded by a blast of air that would immediately dissipate and at the same time rob the rest of the ship of this vital source of life? At this point, the ship sensors, possessing more intelligence than their creators, are gonna say, “Dude. I hope you got your spacesuit on. ‘Cause you gonna die if you don’t!”
If the sensors are as smart as you say, then they would not allow the doors to open in the first place.
HAH!
Alarms would go off. “Warning Will Robinson! The doors are about to open! Get the F outa here!!”
Another thing to keep in mind that defends my hypothesis is that, if there was no air left in the hold, just the vacuum of space, then, when Archer opened the door to ENTERPRISE's interior to escape the compromised shuttlebay, the blast of air that would have rushed out of the oxygenated room on the other side into the airless hold would have likely blown Archer out in to space or, if we cut a little scientific slack, at least visibly tussled his hair, neither of which occured, indicating that the difference in pressure between the two rooms was much closer than total vacuum vs. oxygenated Earth-style, which could only be possible if ENTERPRISE was actively trying to fill the shuttlebay with replacement air.
Yep! The writers miss another one. WRITERS: no balls, two strikes…
[This is the second time I’ve been injured by a runon sentence today.
But where is the replacement air coming from?
YES!! Just WHERE is this inexhaustible supply?
The force wouldn't be identical throughout the column of air pressing down on him.
The difference in force is hardly worth noting. Once free of the confines of the bay, the air would immediately begin to dissipate in all directions (except, perhaps, the source). Following your argument one may picture this tiny column that has miraculously centered on the Suliban’s back would expand outwards and should, using your version of physics, be blowing his hands, arms, feet and legs outward from this central point, NOT up and back as your paper-in-the-drain example suggests.
Spiraling out from that center point…
What magical force causes this spiral? You have just positioned the air supply directly above the bay doors so as to not accidentally knock over the stupid person who didn’t listen to the Robot’s warning.
That’s all I have time for now. I guess I REALLY should get some work done. This should be enough to keep you busy reinventing physics for a while anyway.
Damn, I've just got geek-boy stamped all over my head in shining red letters today, don't I?
Yes. Your mother should be proud.
12-05-01 | 03:54 PM
#59
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From: Right now, my location is DVDTalk, but then again, you should already know that, shouldn't you?
Originally posted by Wizdar:
…and to determine what manner of dress the occupant was wearing? What if it happened to be a spacesuit? What if the occupant didn’t want to be blown all over the place? You’re gasping for breath with that statement.
Cute pun, but the focus shouldn't be on whether the sensors register the manner of dress worn by anyone left behind in the hold so much as the manner in which the hold was opened. It seems quite logical for the most obvious of safety concerns that the shuttlebay doors could not have been opened when the ship's internal sensors recognized living beings in the room; therefore, the Suliban obviously overrode the safety checks. The computer would look at the facts that a) the shuttlebay doors were opened through forcible, non-authorized means and b) there are people inside the shuttlebay. In this scenario, whether the computer knows that the people in the room are wearing protective gear or not is moot (though I'm sure the 1701-D or E would have sensors refined enough to make this distinction)--it must assume they are not. Consider it based on anti-terrorism thinking...
What alternative is it that you imply?
Being trapped in sub-zero temperatures with zero oxygen supply--isn't that obvious? In my version, Archer has a limited chance to get to safety. In yours, he can kiss a feature film franchise goodbye...
That a person stupid enough to be in the bay at the time the doors are opened into space would want to be surrounded by a blast of air that would immediately dissipate and at the same time rob the rest of the ship of this vital source of life?
Again, we are hitting a wall on this "dissipating" air situation. If the ENTERPRISE is continually pumping air into the hold at the same rate it escapes, the dissipation would only happen beyond the ship's hull, not in the shuttlebay itself, which admittedly, would be windy as hell but at least, to one degree or another, oxygenated.
If the sensors are as smart as you say, then they would not allow the doors to open in the first place. HAH!
Ah, but the HAH! is on you, as per my comments about overriding the safety protocols above demonstrate (similar to episodes of TNG wherein the safety protocols to the holodeck were overridden, putting officers in mortal danger).
Alarms would go off. “Warning Will Robinson! The doors are about to open! Get the F outa here!!”
I'll grant you that would have been a nice, even logical touch but, as it is, there's no rule saying that an overriden protocol will allow for an alarm to sound that would normally only register when the doors open due to mechanical error.
Yep! The writers miss another one. WRITERS: no balls, two strikes…
Only in your scenario, not mine...
YES!! Just WHERE is this inexhaustible supply?
On a ship that can generate food and matter-antimatter mix, and is meant to be out in space without starbase assistance for presumably many weeks, if not months, why is it so hard to accept that ENTERPRISE's systems could work for a limited period (maybe four or five minutes) to replace the escaping air supply in one room as an emergency safety measure?
The difference in force is hardly worth noting. Once free of the confines of the bay, the air would immediately begin to dissipate in all directions (except, perhaps, the source). Following your argument one may picture this tiny column that has miraculously centered on the Suliban’s back would expand outwards and should, using your version of physics, be blowing his hands, arms, feet and legs outward from this central point, NOT up and back as your paper-in-the-drain example suggests.
I disagree, but I'm coming up short on ways to reillustrate the point (the internet frustratingly does not allow me to draw you diagrams). Perhaps this will have to be a point we agree to disagree on. Comparing it with the rest of the points of contentions in this disagreement, it seems the most inessential issue.
What magical force causes this spiral? You have just positioned the air supply directly above the bay doors so as to not accidentally knock over the stupid person who didn’t listen to the Robot’s warning.
Forgive my colorful phrasing--the word "spiral" was used in a visual sense, since that's how I think. I was picturing myself, in a kind of camera mode, as I made my illustration, moving through the different layers of force as one works from the centermost column of the air blast outwards. My point was only that, working outward from the direct center of the air column on the Suliban's back, the force would lessen as air dissipated, which you think would be of negligible effect, and which I continue to argue...
…and to determine what manner of dress the occupant was wearing? What if it happened to be a spacesuit? What if the occupant didn’t want to be blown all over the place? You’re gasping for breath with that statement.
Cute pun, but the focus shouldn't be on whether the sensors register the manner of dress worn by anyone left behind in the hold so much as the manner in which the hold was opened. It seems quite logical for the most obvious of safety concerns that the shuttlebay doors could not have been opened when the ship's internal sensors recognized living beings in the room; therefore, the Suliban obviously overrode the safety checks. The computer would look at the facts that a) the shuttlebay doors were opened through forcible, non-authorized means and b) there are people inside the shuttlebay. In this scenario, whether the computer knows that the people in the room are wearing protective gear or not is moot (though I'm sure the 1701-D or E would have sensors refined enough to make this distinction)--it must assume they are not. Consider it based on anti-terrorism thinking...
What alternative is it that you imply?
Being trapped in sub-zero temperatures with zero oxygen supply--isn't that obvious? In my version, Archer has a limited chance to get to safety. In yours, he can kiss a feature film franchise goodbye...
That a person stupid enough to be in the bay at the time the doors are opened into space would want to be surrounded by a blast of air that would immediately dissipate and at the same time rob the rest of the ship of this vital source of life?
Again, we are hitting a wall on this "dissipating" air situation. If the ENTERPRISE is continually pumping air into the hold at the same rate it escapes, the dissipation would only happen beyond the ship's hull, not in the shuttlebay itself, which admittedly, would be windy as hell but at least, to one degree or another, oxygenated.
If the sensors are as smart as you say, then they would not allow the doors to open in the first place. HAH!
Ah, but the HAH! is on you, as per my comments about overriding the safety protocols above demonstrate (similar to episodes of TNG wherein the safety protocols to the holodeck were overridden, putting officers in mortal danger).
Alarms would go off. “Warning Will Robinson! The doors are about to open! Get the F outa here!!”
I'll grant you that would have been a nice, even logical touch but, as it is, there's no rule saying that an overriden protocol will allow for an alarm to sound that would normally only register when the doors open due to mechanical error.
Yep! The writers miss another one. WRITERS: no balls, two strikes…
Only in your scenario, not mine...
YES!! Just WHERE is this inexhaustible supply?
On a ship that can generate food and matter-antimatter mix, and is meant to be out in space without starbase assistance for presumably many weeks, if not months, why is it so hard to accept that ENTERPRISE's systems could work for a limited period (maybe four or five minutes) to replace the escaping air supply in one room as an emergency safety measure?
The difference in force is hardly worth noting. Once free of the confines of the bay, the air would immediately begin to dissipate in all directions (except, perhaps, the source). Following your argument one may picture this tiny column that has miraculously centered on the Suliban’s back would expand outwards and should, using your version of physics, be blowing his hands, arms, feet and legs outward from this central point, NOT up and back as your paper-in-the-drain example suggests.
I disagree, but I'm coming up short on ways to reillustrate the point (the internet frustratingly does not allow me to draw you diagrams). Perhaps this will have to be a point we agree to disagree on. Comparing it with the rest of the points of contentions in this disagreement, it seems the most inessential issue.
What magical force causes this spiral? You have just positioned the air supply directly above the bay doors so as to not accidentally knock over the stupid person who didn’t listen to the Robot’s warning.
Forgive my colorful phrasing--the word "spiral" was used in a visual sense, since that's how I think. I was picturing myself, in a kind of camera mode, as I made my illustration, moving through the different layers of force as one works from the centermost column of the air blast outwards. My point was only that, working outward from the direct center of the air column on the Suliban's back, the force would lessen as air dissipated, which you think would be of negligible effect, and which I continue to argue...
12-05-01 | 05:36 PM
#60
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Considering the computer still isn’t smart enough to properly target a torpedo, and since it is this same computer that is making all these decisions, I think you’re giving it a LOT more smarts than would be logical considering where it stands in the Trek timeline.
I mean, it hasn’t even got a VOICE yet!!
The ship does not have an inexhaustible air supply. It does not generate food, as you assert. There is considerable recycling going on, as has already been demonstrated in this time line. This is not only logical but essential to keep the ship out for months at a time, as you mention.
This ultra smart computer [let’s call it Deep Thought], weighing the consequences of one life versus the lives of the rest of the crew, is not going to waste a considerable amount of air with a Hail Mary just to save one life.
[Drumroll, please…]
The fact that this would be a useless waste of a valuable resource is immediately demonstrated by the fact that Archer is unable to breath despite the massive volumes of air you insist are being pumped intospace the shuttle bay. Deep Thought would know this in advance and would not make this decision.
[Wizdar smirks. Heh, heh, heh!]
Is anybody keeping score? das, anybody?
Edit: Damn. Not page 3 yet? Hmmm...
I mean, it hasn’t even got a VOICE yet!!
The ship does not have an inexhaustible air supply. It does not generate food, as you assert. There is considerable recycling going on, as has already been demonstrated in this time line. This is not only logical but essential to keep the ship out for months at a time, as you mention.
This ultra smart computer [let’s call it Deep Thought], weighing the consequences of one life versus the lives of the rest of the crew, is not going to waste a considerable amount of air with a Hail Mary just to save one life.
[Drumroll, please…]
The fact that this would be a useless waste of a valuable resource is immediately demonstrated by the fact that Archer is unable to breath despite the massive volumes of air you insist are being pumped into
[Wizdar smirks. Heh, heh, heh!]
Is anybody keeping score? das, anybody?
Edit: Damn. Not page 3 yet? Hmmm...
Last edited by Wizdar; 12-05-01 at 05:39 PM.
12-05-01 | 06:44 PM
#61
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From: Right now, my location is DVDTalk, but then again, you should already know that, shouldn't you?
Originally posted by Wizdar:
Considering the computer still isn’t smart enough to properly target a torpedo, and since it is this same computer that is making all these decisions, I think you’re giving it a LOT more smarts than would be logical considering where it stands in the Trek timeline. I mean, it hasn’t even got a VOICE yet!!
I'd counter that, in a technological environment wherein the ship's computer can exactingly memorize the subatomic particles that make up any given object, including living, and their precise layout in order to recreate, reorient and restore them so that the dematerialized object is returned to its exact original specifications, the tasks I'm saying the ENTERPRISE computers should be capable of are child's play in comparison. In this scenario, the writers' assertion that proper targeting of the ship's torpedos is problematic for the computer seems to pinpoint weaker writing than the scene of our dispute. And I'm sure your comment about the computer not having a voice is made in jest because even in the latter half of the 20th century, we had computers with voice capability--does that mean all computers are programmed with this feature? Of course not--nor should ENTERPRISE be required to be so programmed.
The ship does not have an inexhaustible air supply.
No, and as I said, I'm sure this emergency feature did have a certainly short enabling mode. I strongly doubt that, if the shuttlebay doors were open an hour later, the ENTERPRISE would still be blasting tons of air into the vacuum.
It does not generate food, as you assert.
In fact it does, in limited capability--at least beverages, as we've seen T'Pol order...unless you think they're just pouring out of a tank somewhere. The ship must have some limited replication technology--a given "fact" of the STAR TREK universe is that part of humanity's ability to come to peace with itself lay in the creation of replication technology, so that there was no more hunger or death by disease (via replication of medicine) after the nuclear fallout of the mid-2000s. I'm sure the limitations of replication on the NX-01 stem from limitations in the stored energy sources on this prototype craft, not because the technology doesn't exist yet, which would be a violation of continuity.
There is considerable recycling going on, as has already been demonstrated in this time line. This is not only logical but essential to keep the ship out for months at a time, as you mention. This ultra smart computer [let’s call it Deep Thought], weighing the consequences of one life versus the lives of the rest of the crew, is not going to waste a considerable amount of air with a Hail Mary just to save one life.
Indeed, but returning to my assertion of ENTERPRISE's limited replication abilities, I would think that the simplest and most basic form of replication technology would involve converting the CO2 the crew exhales from the ship's oxygen back into oxygen. There may be stored tanks of oxygen on the ship, but I believe they generally are not tapped except for emergency situations. It is far more efficient (and I'm certain 22nd century technology would be easily capable of it) to begin with a shipwide allotment of free oxygen that is continually recoverted from the CO2 residue back into useable oxygen; thereby allowing the same set allotment of oxygen to be used and reused ad infinitum.
The fact that this would be a useless waste of a valuable resource is immediately demonstrated by the fact that Archer is unable to breath despite the massive volumes of air you insist are being pumped into space the shuttle bay. Deep Thought would know this in advance and would not make this decision.
Nay, this is simply the reality of what a Starfleet trained officer would do to insure his life is saved. One with any degree of sense would not depend on this shaky emergency measure to keep one's self alive. The amount of air coming out of the vents may still not be enough to stave off even relatively minor effects from explosive decompression, and the emergency air supply may have a more abrupt cut off than I have theorized. The greatest advantage to keeping air available in the hold may be to minimize the pressure differences between the compromised environment and the safe interior of the ENTERPRISE, with any restorative effects on living beings catching a stray breath being a secondary perk...
Considering the computer still isn’t smart enough to properly target a torpedo, and since it is this same computer that is making all these decisions, I think you’re giving it a LOT more smarts than would be logical considering where it stands in the Trek timeline. I mean, it hasn’t even got a VOICE yet!!
I'd counter that, in a technological environment wherein the ship's computer can exactingly memorize the subatomic particles that make up any given object, including living, and their precise layout in order to recreate, reorient and restore them so that the dematerialized object is returned to its exact original specifications, the tasks I'm saying the ENTERPRISE computers should be capable of are child's play in comparison. In this scenario, the writers' assertion that proper targeting of the ship's torpedos is problematic for the computer seems to pinpoint weaker writing than the scene of our dispute. And I'm sure your comment about the computer not having a voice is made in jest because even in the latter half of the 20th century, we had computers with voice capability--does that mean all computers are programmed with this feature? Of course not--nor should ENTERPRISE be required to be so programmed.
The ship does not have an inexhaustible air supply.
No, and as I said, I'm sure this emergency feature did have a certainly short enabling mode. I strongly doubt that, if the shuttlebay doors were open an hour later, the ENTERPRISE would still be blasting tons of air into the vacuum.
It does not generate food, as you assert.
In fact it does, in limited capability--at least beverages, as we've seen T'Pol order...unless you think they're just pouring out of a tank somewhere. The ship must have some limited replication technology--a given "fact" of the STAR TREK universe is that part of humanity's ability to come to peace with itself lay in the creation of replication technology, so that there was no more hunger or death by disease (via replication of medicine) after the nuclear fallout of the mid-2000s. I'm sure the limitations of replication on the NX-01 stem from limitations in the stored energy sources on this prototype craft, not because the technology doesn't exist yet, which would be a violation of continuity.
There is considerable recycling going on, as has already been demonstrated in this time line. This is not only logical but essential to keep the ship out for months at a time, as you mention. This ultra smart computer [let’s call it Deep Thought], weighing the consequences of one life versus the lives of the rest of the crew, is not going to waste a considerable amount of air with a Hail Mary just to save one life.
Indeed, but returning to my assertion of ENTERPRISE's limited replication abilities, I would think that the simplest and most basic form of replication technology would involve converting the CO2 the crew exhales from the ship's oxygen back into oxygen. There may be stored tanks of oxygen on the ship, but I believe they generally are not tapped except for emergency situations. It is far more efficient (and I'm certain 22nd century technology would be easily capable of it) to begin with a shipwide allotment of free oxygen that is continually recoverted from the CO2 residue back into useable oxygen; thereby allowing the same set allotment of oxygen to be used and reused ad infinitum.
The fact that this would be a useless waste of a valuable resource is immediately demonstrated by the fact that Archer is unable to breath despite the massive volumes of air you insist are being pumped into space the shuttle bay. Deep Thought would know this in advance and would not make this decision.
Nay, this is simply the reality of what a Starfleet trained officer would do to insure his life is saved. One with any degree of sense would not depend on this shaky emergency measure to keep one's self alive. The amount of air coming out of the vents may still not be enough to stave off even relatively minor effects from explosive decompression, and the emergency air supply may have a more abrupt cut off than I have theorized. The greatest advantage to keeping air available in the hold may be to minimize the pressure differences between the compromised environment and the safe interior of the ENTERPRISE, with any restorative effects on living beings catching a stray breath being a secondary perk...
12-05-01 | 07:07 PM
#62
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From: wishing I was in Vegas
Nay, this is simply the reality of what a Starfleet trained officer would do to insure his life is saved. One with any degree of sense would not depend on this shaky emergency measure to keep one's self alive.
A Starfleet trained officer with any degree of sense would not have accidentally dropped a device that could have immeasurable importance.
The greatest advantage to keeping air available in the hold may be to minimize the pressure differences between the compromised environment and the safe interior of the ENTERPRISE.
For what purpose?
Have you caught your limit yet?
Ocham’s razor: the writers F’d up.
A Starfleet trained officer with any degree of sense would not have accidentally dropped a device that could have immeasurable importance.
The greatest advantage to keeping air available in the hold may be to minimize the pressure differences between the compromised environment and the safe interior of the ENTERPRISE.
For what purpose?
Have you caught your limit yet?
Ocham’s razor: the writers F’d up.
12-05-01 | 09:58 PM
#64
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From: wishing I was in Vegas
Originally posted by das Monkey
Not anymore. I misplaced my little eraserless pencil ... but I'm pretty sure I won.
das
Not anymore. I misplaced my little eraserless pencil ... but I'm pretty sure I won.
das
12-06-01 | 08:46 AM
#65
Originally posted by Wizdar
I think you're right -- since you elected not to play.
I think you're right -- since you elected not to play.
das
12-06-01 | 09:58 AM
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From: wishing I was in Vegas
Originally posted by das Monkey
It's a banner day when an argument/discussion goes this far without me butting in with lots of opinions.
It's a banner day when an argument/discussion goes this far without me butting in with lots of opinions.
12-06-01 | 12:12 PM
#68
DVD Talk Hero
OK, first let me say that I thought this was a great episode. I thought the direction was excellent (and was quite surprised to find out it was "Tom Paris" doing the directing).
Now, why the heck are you guys talking about all of this air pressure nonsense? It didn't occur to me that the Suliban was sky-diving to his ship at all. His pose was like unto a skydiver, or a cliff-diver for that matter, but so what? He was "diving" out of the ship. It seems obvious to me that he was quite comfortable with the notion of jumping into space and getting to his ship with no concern, which made me assume he A) Had done it before, B) Had a system in place to allow him to do it.
Here are some far more plausible, while perhaps less fun to debate, possibilities:
1) He has a suspensor field emitter on his person which, not only provides him with pressure and air (provided Suliban require either), but allows him to direct himself as well.
2) His shuttle has a tractor beam on him and pulls him in.
3) His shuttle *gasp* "beams him up", once he has exited the ship.
All I saw was him taking a dive out of the ship for about 3 seconds. I don't imagine him to be surfing through space, bouncing off of photons, and riding solar winds in an effort to get back to his ship (which took apparently no more than 10 seconds or so).
Now, why the heck are you guys talking about all of this air pressure nonsense?
It didn't occur to me that the Suliban was sky-diving to his ship at all. His pose was like unto a skydiver, or a cliff-diver for that matter, but so what? He was "diving" out of the ship. It seems obvious to me that he was quite comfortable with the notion of jumping into space and getting to his ship with no concern, which made me assume he A) Had done it before, B) Had a system in place to allow him to do it.Here are some far more plausible, while perhaps less fun to debate, possibilities:
1) He has a suspensor field emitter on his person which, not only provides him with pressure and air (provided Suliban require either), but allows him to direct himself as well.
2) His shuttle has a tractor beam on him and pulls him in.
3) His shuttle *gasp* "beams him up", once he has exited the ship.
All I saw was him taking a dive out of the ship for about 3 seconds. I don't imagine him to be surfing through space, bouncing off of photons, and riding solar winds in an effort to get back to his ship (which took apparently no more than 10 seconds or so).
12-07-01 | 05:03 PM
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From: Right now, my location is DVDTalk, but then again, you should already know that, shouldn't you?
Considering that all Wizdar and myself are saying at this point is the same thing we started out with, only different, I'll surrender the ongoing fight, but not the fundamental belief...
12-08-01 | 04:35 AM
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From: Fremont, CA USA
About Robert Duncan McNeill's directing talent:
Supposedly, he's been invited onto the set of the West Wing several times to observe the directing on the show, so maybe he might end up working there a lot. Also, SciFi channel shows his short film occasionally.
I think he seems to be the most successful of the Voyager directors: McNeill, Dawson, Picardo, and Russ.
Supposedly, he's been invited onto the set of the West Wing several times to observe the directing on the show, so maybe he might end up working there a lot. Also, SciFi channel shows his short film occasionally.
I think he seems to be the most successful of the Voyager directors: McNeill, Dawson, Picardo, and Russ.
