Recent Amazon Price Error: You'll be charged unless you return!!
12-29-06, 07:16 AM
#176
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by BrentLumkin
Does their accepting the payment, shipping the items, and then sending an email stating:
not acknowledge the creation and completion of a contract?
not acknowledge the creation and completion of a contract?
More to the point, did you honestly believe that the deal you got was 100% legitimate and not the result of a mistake on Amazon's part?
12-29-06, 07:19 AM
#177
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Originally Posted by cverneau
I just contacted my CC company.
It happens to be an Amazon.com Chase Visa card.
The person I spoke with on the phone was extremely surprised as he had not heard of this yet. He could not believe what they're trying to do.
The CC CSR said Amazom has no legal standing to do this as these were COMPLETED TRANSACTIONS.
He said that pricing errors happen all the time in the corporate world , but that this was not my error - it was Amazon's.
He told me the charges would be disputed without any problem if Amazon tries to charge more.
It happens to be an Amazon.com Chase Visa card.
The person I spoke with on the phone was extremely surprised as he had not heard of this yet. He could not believe what they're trying to do.
The CC CSR said Amazom has no legal standing to do this as these were COMPLETED TRANSACTIONS.
He said that pricing errors happen all the time in the corporate world , but that this was not my error - it was Amazon's.
He told me the charges would be disputed without any problem if Amazon tries to charge more.
12-29-06, 07:20 AM
#178
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Originally Posted by ResIpsa
See also this link: scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1992/1992rcs1-697/1992rcs1-697.html
for an example of the Canadian perspective.
I am sure there are more examples, but you will have to research it yourself.
for an example of the Canadian perspective.
I am sure there are more examples, but you will have to research it yourself.
12-29-06, 07:23 AM
#179
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Originally Posted by me12321
This is more than just the "Child caught with his hand in the cookie jar" type of thing.
but, that aside, I skipped on this cause it was a little outside my ethical boundaries, but I'm of the mind that, while I don't think anyone necessarily should have taken advantage in the first place, certainly Amazon's not in the right in their approach here.
But whatever, I'm not involved in either side--I'm just entertaining myself reading this thread.
12-29-06, 07:23 AM
#180
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Originally Posted by mnementh
Can you play devil's advocate and provide arguments in the customers' favor?
12-29-06, 07:33 AM
#182
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Well, as I stated, Amazon will have a problem collecting anything due to credit card issues, cost and potential bad publicity. If a customer purchased a reasonable amount of sets, then I sincerely doubt Amazon will do anything more than the threatening email that has already been sent (i.e. you can keep them with little fear of being hounded by the Amazon police 
). For those who purchased lots and lots of DVDs (duplicate sets even), then I would advise careful thought and consideration of Amazon's offer to accept the return as they will be much more likely to go after those persons. Of course, they might not, but that would be a political and practical decision, not a legal one.
). For those who purchased lots and lots of DVDs (duplicate sets even), then I would advise careful thought and consideration of Amazon's offer to accept the return as they will be much more likely to go after those persons. Of course, they might not, but that would be a political and practical decision, not a legal one.
12-29-06, 07:46 AM
#184
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Originally Posted by dtcarson
Different situation.
If I priced my item at 10.00 instead of the actual 100.00 it 'should' be, then yes, I'd kick myself for screwing up and hold up my end of the transaction.
If the email says I'll be paid, I expect to be paid. In this situation I paid the price Amazon charged me.
I also lost some money in a return recently. When I bought something the tax rate was 7.00, when I returned it the tax rate was 6.75, so their computer credited me .25% less than I originally paid.
If I priced my item at 10.00 instead of the actual 100.00 it 'should' be, then yes, I'd kick myself for screwing up and hold up my end of the transaction.
If the email says I'll be paid, I expect to be paid. In this situation I paid the price Amazon charged me.
I also lost some money in a return recently. When I bought something the tax rate was 7.00, when I returned it the tax rate was 6.75, so their computer credited me .25% less than I originally paid.
Man, where I work we make sure to factor that in pre-December purchases. Who did that?
12-29-06, 07:48 AM
#185
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Originally Posted by dtcarson
Especially with US examples, since both Amazon and I are in the US. I'm not to the point where I focus on other countries' laws over 'my' own yet.
Me, I don't see it as a crime, but it's not something that I would feel proud for doing. But that's just me.
12-29-06, 07:51 AM
#186
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Anybody remember the whole Disney.com fiasco from a few years ago?
If not, here's the link: Disney Fiasco.
Anywho, does anyone know of any online reporters who would be looking for a controversial story about Amazon.com?
If not, here's the link: Disney Fiasco.
Anywho, does anyone know of any online reporters who would be looking for a controversial story about Amazon.com?
Name: Troy Wolverton
Email: [email protected]
12-29-06, 07:55 AM
#187
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And in the news this morning:
"Internet retailer Amazon.com Inc. claimed sales during the 2006 holiday season to be its best ever, with its busiest day being Dec. 11 when customer orders exceeded 4 million items."
"Internet retailer Amazon.com Inc. claimed sales during the 2006 holiday season to be its best ever, with its busiest day being Dec. 11 when customer orders exceeded 4 million items."
12-29-06, 07:56 AM
#188
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Originally Posted by ResIpsa
WFor those who purchased lots and lots of DVDs (duplicate sets even), then I would advise careful thought and consideration of Amazon's offer to accept the return as they will be much more likely to go after those persons. Of course, they might not, but that would be a political and practical decision, not a legal one.
12-29-06, 08:28 AM
#189
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Originally Posted by bhauge
I wonder how different our reactions to the "email" would have been if Amazon had decided to take a lighter and more forthcoming approach instead of the more heavy-handed one that they did:
Dear Amazon Customer:
We admit it. We goofed! Due to a programming error, your recent order for our B1G1 offer incorrectly deducted the lower-priced item twice. Although we eventually corrected the error, several orders (including yours) were placed and shipped. We realize that we cannot legally require you to pay the correct amount or return your items. However, since this error resulted in a considerable loss to Amazon, we would ask that you consider returning these items to us (at our expense). As a token of our appreciation, we will send you a Gift Certificate in the amount of $10 for each order that is returned. Thank you for being a loyal Amazon customer.
I realize that this may not change many peoples minds about returning orders, but it would certainly make me feel better about Amazon as a company. Just my two cents ...
Dear Amazon Customer:
We admit it. We goofed! Due to a programming error, your recent order for our B1G1 offer incorrectly deducted the lower-priced item twice. Although we eventually corrected the error, several orders (including yours) were placed and shipped. We realize that we cannot legally require you to pay the correct amount or return your items. However, since this error resulted in a considerable loss to Amazon, we would ask that you consider returning these items to us (at our expense). As a token of our appreciation, we will send you a Gift Certificate in the amount of $10 for each order that is returned. Thank you for being a loyal Amazon customer.
I realize that this may not change many peoples minds about returning orders, but it would certainly make me feel better about Amazon as a company. Just my two cents ...
Is this post a joke? "To reward you for taking advantage of a glitch in our system, one that cost us money, we would like to offer you a $10 gift certificate." Give me a break!
12-29-06, 08:34 AM
#190
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Originally Posted by Groucho
Is this post a joke? "To reward you for taking advantage of a glitch in our system, one that cost us money, we would like to offer you a $10 gift certificate." Give me a break!Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you think it's better to lose the most money possible.
12-29-06, 08:37 AM
#191
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Originally Posted by Groucho
Is this post a joke? "To reward you for taking advantage of a glitch in our system, one that cost us money, we would like to offer you a $10 gift certificate." Give me a break!If handing out GC's convinces enough more people to send back the sets or pay the corrected price than being a hard-ass did, than that's what any reasonable business would do.
12-29-06, 08:45 AM
#192
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Originally Posted by movieguru
Link to the Better Business Bureau in Washington state for those that would want to have some fun with this. Imagine what would happen if the BBB got bombarded with complaints from all of us here.
http://www.thebbb.org/otheragencies.htm
http://www.thebbb.org/otheragencies.htm
The BBB will most likely be a non-starter.
12-29-06, 08:46 AM
#193
Moderator
Clearly, Amazon thinks they have the legal grounds to do a charge back here. Whether they're right or wrong, I have no idea. I imagine most people are going to cave just from the initial email. Why waste $10 from everybody when their going to get most of these back anyway?
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Amazon does offer something for the few folks that fight this. But I still think it's hilarious that people think that they should be rewarded for this.
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Amazon does offer something for the few folks that fight this. But I still think it's hilarious that people think that they should be rewarded for this.
12-29-06, 08:47 AM
#194
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And giving a coupon code/GC at least has precedent--Amazon has done it in the past, Overstock has, if you have a poor meal at a restaurant they sometimes give you a GC, etc.
If this flies, what's to stop them from saying "That cheapo pre-order price? Too low, we're now charging you regular price, 3 weeks after you received the item."
*sigh* It's not about being 'rewarded'. It's about agreeing to pay the price I was charged. It's not my fault they screwed up.
I hope everyone sent Buy.com 90.00 for the savings on the Tenchi box set, or gave CH 5.00 bucks back for each re-use of the 'first web order' discount, etc. This is the exact same thing.
If this flies, what's to stop them from saying "That cheapo pre-order price? Too low, we're now charging you regular price, 3 weeks after you received the item."
*sigh* It's not about being 'rewarded'. It's about agreeing to pay the price I was charged. It's not my fault they screwed up.
I hope everyone sent Buy.com 90.00 for the savings on the Tenchi box set, or gave CH 5.00 bucks back for each re-use of the 'first web order' discount, etc. This is the exact same thing.
12-29-06, 08:55 AM
#196
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Originally Posted by ResIpsa
In general contract law, there is a concept known as "mistake of fact." It occurs when one party to a contract knows that a mistake has been made by the other party and that the other party would not follow through with the contract if they knew the true facts. If there is such a mistake of fact, there is no contract, plain and simple, since there was no mutual agreement in the first place.
IMHO Amazon is on pretty solid legal ground if they claim that no valid contracts for these B0G0 "deals" ever existed. Unless one of you here wants to claim you didn't know there was a significant pricing mistake....................... Didn't think so.
The real problem for Amazon, however, is one of enforcement; that is, getting their goods or their money back. I doubt that they can successfully recharge your credit cards (they might be able to ding your debit cards, I am not sure). In order to get their money or goods back, they would most likely need to file a lawsuit (or pursue arbitration if their terms of use so stipulate). This lawsuit would allege mistake of fact as a defense to any contract being formed. They would win 80% of these cases as most judges/juries would conclude that buying 2 $35+ DVD sets for a penny is something that no reasonable consumer could expect as a legitimate deal. However, the expense and negative publicity that such lawsuits would generate would lead Amazon to go after only the most egregious cases, those who made dozens of purchases.
In summary, just because they can't charge your credit card after the fact doesn't make it all right. You still knowingly took advantage of a glitch and profited thereby. In some jurisdictions, that is theft. As for the argument that this would mean that any retailer could retroactively change their prices and demand that you pay the difference after shipment, it all depends on the actual facts of the situation. Here, we are talking about an obvious glitch. Besides, there are laws against bait and switch sales tactics and any retailer who engaged in such tactics on a consistent basis would not be in business long.
IMHO Amazon is on pretty solid legal ground if they claim that no valid contracts for these B0G0 "deals" ever existed. Unless one of you here wants to claim you didn't know there was a significant pricing mistake....................... Didn't think so.
The real problem for Amazon, however, is one of enforcement; that is, getting their goods or their money back. I doubt that they can successfully recharge your credit cards (they might be able to ding your debit cards, I am not sure). In order to get their money or goods back, they would most likely need to file a lawsuit (or pursue arbitration if their terms of use so stipulate). This lawsuit would allege mistake of fact as a defense to any contract being formed. They would win 80% of these cases as most judges/juries would conclude that buying 2 $35+ DVD sets for a penny is something that no reasonable consumer could expect as a legitimate deal. However, the expense and negative publicity that such lawsuits would generate would lead Amazon to go after only the most egregious cases, those who made dozens of purchases.
In summary, just because they can't charge your credit card after the fact doesn't make it all right. You still knowingly took advantage of a glitch and profited thereby. In some jurisdictions, that is theft. As for the argument that this would mean that any retailer could retroactively change their prices and demand that you pay the difference after shipment, it all depends on the actual facts of the situation. Here, we are talking about an obvious glitch. Besides, there are laws against bait and switch sales tactics and any retailer who engaged in such tactics on a consistent basis would not be in business long.
HRYK.
12-29-06, 09:00 AM
#197
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Originally Posted by ResIpsa
In general contract law, there is a concept known as "mistake of fact." It occurs when one party to a contract knows that a mistake has been made by the other party and that the other party would not follow through with the contract if they knew the true facts. If there is such a mistake of fact, there is no contract, plain and simple, since there was no mutual agreement in the first place.
IMHO Amazon is on pretty solid legal ground if they claim that no valid contracts for these B0G0 "deals" ever existed. Unless one of you here wants to claim you didn't know there was a significant pricing mistake....................... Didn't think so.
[blah, blah, blah]
Besides, there are laws against bait and switch sales tactics and any retailer who engaged in such tactics on a consistent basis would not be in business long.
IMHO Amazon is on pretty solid legal ground if they claim that no valid contracts for these B0G0 "deals" ever existed. Unless one of you here wants to claim you didn't know there was a significant pricing mistake....................... Didn't think so.
[blah, blah, blah]
Besides, there are laws against bait and switch sales tactics and any retailer who engaged in such tactics on a consistent basis would not be in business long.
As for the last comment regarding bait and switch tactics: Have you never dealt with or hear of those shady camera outfits? They have been staying in business for many many years using just those tactics. Again, the real world is different than your 1L classes obviously led you to believe.
12-29-06, 09:04 AM
#198
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Originally Posted by Groucho
Is this post a joke? "To reward you for taking advantage of a glitch in our system, one that cost us money, we would like to offer you a $10 gift certificate." Give me a break!
12-29-06, 09:10 AM
#199
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Originally Posted by drmoze
Let me hazard a guess that you don't actually practice any contract law in real life. (My second guess is that you're still in law school.)
12-29-06, 09:12 AM
#200
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Jeez, this holier than thou bs is getting a bit tiresome. The Target fiasco was an aboslute feeding frenzy, and was on such a bigger scale than this one, and I don't remember this kind of moralizing. There have been countless price mistakes before, and people jump on them. Overstock, Suncoast, Buy.com. Happens all the time.
Newsflash--people like getting things discounted. People like getting things for free. And this was a legal transaction, with a legitimate online retailer, who made a mistake. Nothing was manipulated here. We put items in our cart, went to check out, paid what we were charged, and were shipped and received the goods.
Again, it is not the buyer's responsibility to make sure a promotion was applied properly. I do promotions at Amazon all the time. $30 for buying $100 worth of Pampers products. The current $10 off $49 at the grocery. And if you look at how Amazon bills it, sometimes they take part of the promotion off different items to equal the total promotion, or all off the promotion off of one item. Whatever it is it is, as long as I get the total promotion.
So on this one, they screwed up. And applied too big of a promotion. I placed two orders--big whoop. And what if I opened it already. And what if I gave it away as a gift. Shouldn't matter--when I paid, it was shipped, and I received it, it was mine to do what I want with it. Amazon should have canceled the darn orders. But by not doing that, and shipping them, it's a done deal.
And I wouldn't expect anyone who is being so ethical here to take advantage of any other price mistake on this board in the future. Whether it's a $1 price mistake, a $5 price mistake, or a $50 price mistake, it is not what the price was supposed to be, so I would expect you to pass on the deal or pay the higher price to the retailer.
Newsflash--people like getting things discounted. People like getting things for free. And this was a legal transaction, with a legitimate online retailer, who made a mistake. Nothing was manipulated here. We put items in our cart, went to check out, paid what we were charged, and were shipped and received the goods.
Again, it is not the buyer's responsibility to make sure a promotion was applied properly. I do promotions at Amazon all the time. $30 for buying $100 worth of Pampers products. The current $10 off $49 at the grocery. And if you look at how Amazon bills it, sometimes they take part of the promotion off different items to equal the total promotion, or all off the promotion off of one item. Whatever it is it is, as long as I get the total promotion.
So on this one, they screwed up. And applied too big of a promotion. I placed two orders--big whoop. And what if I opened it already. And what if I gave it away as a gift. Shouldn't matter--when I paid, it was shipped, and I received it, it was mine to do what I want with it. Amazon should have canceled the darn orders. But by not doing that, and shipping them, it's a done deal.
And I wouldn't expect anyone who is being so ethical here to take advantage of any other price mistake on this board in the future. Whether it's a $1 price mistake, a $5 price mistake, or a $50 price mistake, it is not what the price was supposed to be, so I would expect you to pass on the deal or pay the higher price to the retailer.