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Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Old 10-23-10, 07:29 PM
  #101  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

I heard an interesting proposal to slow down or stop piracy (from Sound Opinions podcast) - lower the price of a CD to $2 or $3, and the price of digital music (like through iTunes) to the same price,or lower.

The theory is that people will buy at that price rather than illegally download for free, and at a lower price the increase in volume will make up for the lower prices.

Keep in mind that the actual cost of manufacturing / distributing a CD is very small, and for a digital download it's a few pennies at the most.
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Old 10-23-10, 11:50 PM
  #102  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by Heat View Post
I heard an interesting proposal to slow down or stop piracy (from Sound Opinions podcast) - lower the price of a CD to $2 or $3, and the price of digital music (like through iTunes) to the same price,or lower.
The would NEVER price CDs that low.

If they did, I would immediately purchase 100+ CDs.
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Old 10-24-10, 12:28 AM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by Rocketdog2000 View Post
I'll agree with most of the first part, and wholeheartedly agree on the latter statement. To me, there's a big difference between actually buying the CD and making a copy for yourself, and just making a copy off a file you downloaded off the internet for free.
I know there is a difference, but I don't really feel any sympathy when I hear some exec/lawyer/whoever make the point that downloading an album and making a copy to play in the car are similarly wrong. For them to even imply that one should instead buy the album a 2nd time to "keep in the car" makes them sound out of touch and stupid.
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Old 10-24-10, 08:29 AM
  #104  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by Rocketdog2000 View Post
Poor sales would be an excuse if an artist's album didn't do as well as the last - say there was a 10% or so difference in drop off. But when almost everyone's album sales drop by 60 to 80%, that's no longer poor sales. Something else is the culprit. Having the perspective of actually seeing this happen from the business end of things, and exactly around the same time as the insurgence of P2P sites taking off, it leaves little doubt as to what caused it.

I've heard conversations in stores many times, where two kids will be talking. One of them was going to buy a CD, and his friend says "Why pay for it, when you can get it free online?", and then nothing ends up being bought/sold. There's a whole generation of folks who grew up with more instant gratification wants than any before it, and access to an internet that easily enabled them. These same people thinking it was acceptable to just take stuff for free online, because it was made readily available, and because no one told them or really did anything to show them it was wrong. Kids who didn't see the outcome of the bigger picture, or the consequences of their actions - only giving a shit about pleasing themselves. The same kids who in past generations, without the same options, would have been purchasing the same albums they were now just stealing. That's where your major drop off in sales happened.

It's easy not to see or perceive it when you're not confronted with it on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis. However, when you are, you understand it a whole lot differently.
You may have a point regarding future generations.

For my own part, I rarely visit record stores these days, tending to buy CDs & DVDs from e-tailers. Most of these are not even for myself; they are gifts. There's not much more that I feel inspired to buy and I've had a long hiatus from regularly playing most of what I own. Even with radio, I'm mostly listening to non-music stations. And where I do listen to, say, BBC Radio 2 - instead of speech-based Radio 4 - that will be because of the guests that are on whatever weekly show, as much as for what is played between the chat.

The one and only time that I downloaded music that was not legitimately available for free it was an out-of-print album that I'd looked all over for on behalf of a friend. She was delighted to be able to experience again this otherwise unavailable blast from the past. But when I later saw that the defunct 1970s band's material had finally been re-released, I bought both the album I'd downloaded and the other newly-available title.

So, while I'm aging and spending my time and money on other things, the next group of potential music purchasers seem not to be filling my honorable shoes!

And, er, no-one is telling me I must double-dip in order to listen to my music out of the home or that any of this is about putting more money in the pockets of the performers. We've had earlier threads breaking down just how much the label keeps and how they have used legal digital download pricing arrangements to screw the performer even further. It seems that only the most well-represented of artistes manage to reap the full benefit of their labours.
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Old 10-24-10, 09:05 AM
  #105  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

I rarely visit records stores these days and it's sad. I used to go to several record stores EVERY weekend, and now I'm lucky to go once every 3 months. As a result I buy less.

But it's not my fault (my tastes haven't changed), nor the quality of music's fault (if you look hard enough, you can find new bands that are just as good as anything else you like), nor the record company's fault. It's the fault of the buyers at the record stores.

They are not keeping up with my tastes in newer bands and supplying stock with newer releases that they used to stock.

I can't even blame the economy. I saw this happening 5 years ago. I used to go into some stores and not walk out spending less than $100. Now I'm scrounging to find anything on my list. It's like all the record buyers at the stores I go to quit and moved on and got replaced by kids who don't care. It used to be that I could go to a store and KNOW had that new Hellacopters or Turbonegro single or CD. Now I have to ask about it and I get the "who? oh, we can special order it for you want." It's like "no thanks", I can get it off Amazon just as fast.

Or worse, I can download and/or sample songs off their myspace page and then I usually find out that I didn't really want it in the first place. (not the Hellacopters or Turbonegro, of course, but other bands I'm checking out).

Maybe the internets has caused me to buy less. Certainly helps me weed out all the crap that I normally would've bought.
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Old 10-24-10, 12:44 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

I go in to Amoeba records about once a month, stock up on vinyl, and usually end up spending over $100 at a time. However, almost all of that is used, so the record companies still aren't seeing a dime from it.
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Old 10-24-10, 03:00 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

There is a local record store in Encinitas, CA, that was one of the great independent record stores in the state for about two decades. Lou's Records was a phenomenal place to shop. They were big time discounters and had a tremendous selection (ranging from the well known acts to tons of smaller, indie acts). They carried tons of Rock sub genres, but also had healthy Jazz and Blues sections. They also had a phenomenal used section with tons and tons of CD's and a good vinyl section as well.

Recently, something happened. Almost all of their new product is gone - they're almost entirely focused on the used inventory now. I suspect that they had their credit from their suppliers cut off and much of their new/sealed product had to be returned. A similar thing happened to the record store I worked for back in '94. My boss chose to just shut it down rather than to attempt to continue with a focus on the used product.

If Lou's is struggling that badly (and, believe me, it isn't the same store anymore), then I don't see how any music retailer can survive in the long haul.

It's really sad. I used to spend hours of my time at Tower Records and Lou's back in the 80's and 90's.
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Old 10-24-10, 08:04 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
There is a local record store in Encinitas, CA, that was one of the great independent record stores in the state for about two decades. Lou's Records was a phenomenal place to shop.

It's really sad. I used to spend hours of my time at Tower Records and Lou's back in the 80's and 90's.
THAT'S THE STORE I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!

Sometime around 5 years ago, their buyers just wouldn't stock stuff like the new Turbonegro DVD! A year or two before that, they would certainly have it in stock the day it came out. Now you have to "special order" something like that.

Used to spend hours there too, spending $100s of dollars at a time.

I'd do the same today, but they just don't stock the stuff I want anymore.
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Old 01-21-13, 07:13 PM
  #109  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Actually, the original artist was paid to let Nick, "Borrow," his work. It was done quietly, but he was paid.

The bottom line is this - Gene is right. People illegally downloading music has almost completely destroyed an entire industry. A lot of people are out of work because of it, and a lot of artists have lost millions of dollars in income because of it.

That's not cool. That's not OK.

Bands can't make any real money on albums any more, and very few bands make enough money on tour to put any money away for the future.

The quality of music that we're going to hear in the future is going to drop considerably as people who need to make money can't afford to make music on a full time basis. Music will be come a side gig for most people as they have to work, "Real," jobs to pay the bills. Less time spent working on songwriting and performing skills means lower quality almost every time.

The current state of the music industry is pathetic. The future looks even worse.

Can you link that please.
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Old 01-21-13, 07:44 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Quite the bump.
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Old 01-21-13, 07:47 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by RagingBull80 View Post
Quite the bump.

lol, yeah I was reading up on the whole scandal and saw that this forum touched upon it. What I hadn't seen was anyone actually say that the Bleach artist was paid to let Nick use his artwork on the down low.
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Old 01-21-13, 08:45 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

I was at a local show the other night and one of the bands, The Van Allen Belt, mentioned that they don't sell individual albums anymore, but instead people who wanted to hear their music could buy a flash drive with their of their albums, videos, and bonus artwork for $25. After the show I was talking with the lead singer and mentioned I was interested in getting one of the flash drives but I only had $15. She said, "If it makes you a fan, I can let one go for $15." She sold it to me and then I asked if they had an email list, which they did, so she added me to that as well.

So now, after one $5 show, they've earned a fan who will see them whenever they're in town (they're not local), and will buy their new albums, because they took the time to engage on a personal level. I'm not saying all bands should earn fans one by one, but I think the flash drive thing is a great idea, and I'm now far more aware of them than I would be after seeing most bands at a local show.
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Old 01-21-13, 09:29 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Sorry, I'm sure I'm duplicating some posts here or there. I just read page 5 and am going to comment. How does everyone here feel about Blockbuster? Now that Redbox has moved in and has somehow made a profit renting movies for 1.30 a night does anyone think Blockbuster was making a killing and maybe overcharging just a bit?
Music artists deserve to be paid but paying 14.99 for a cd that has two good songs on it? I don't feel sorry for the music industry much like I don't feel sorry for Blockbuster going out of business. You overcharged the customers for years and now you're upset. It's like paying 50 bucks for those Mike Tyson fights in the 80s that lasted 90 seconds. Everyone has wised up.
Like Redbox, it's all about providing entertainment at a fair cost. I don't expect it for free but c'mon.
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Old 01-22-13, 01:00 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by Barth View Post
Sorry, I'm sure I'm duplicating some posts here or there. I just read page 5 and am going to comment. How does everyone here feel about Blockbuster? Now that Redbox has moved in and has somehow made a profit renting movies for 1.30 a night does anyone think Blockbuster was making a killing and maybe overcharging just a bit?
Music artists deserve to be paid but paying 14.99 for a cd that has two good songs on it? I don't feel sorry for the music industry much like I don't feel sorry for Blockbuster going out of business. You overcharged the customers for years and now you're upset. It's like paying 50 bucks for those Mike Tyson fights in the 80s that lasted 90 seconds. Everyone has wised up.
Like Redbox, it's all about providing entertainment at a fair cost. I don't expect it for free but c'mon.
In the days of VHS, they were not overcharging. Rental VHS tapes would cost as much as $100 each back then. I don't think it is a matter of overcharing though. Not that it matters much now, but I have a blockbuster on my way to/from work. For $15 a month, I can rent anything in the store (one thing out at a time) and any other rentals are rent 1 get 1 free. All of their catalog titles are $.99 now (thanks to redbox). I think it is a pretty good deal right now.
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Old 01-22-13, 04:06 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
I was at a local show the other night and one of the bands, The Van Allen Belt, mentioned that they don't sell individual albums anymore, but instead people who wanted to hear their music could buy a flash drive with their of their albums, videos, and bonus artwork for $25. After the show I was talking with the lead singer and mentioned I was interested in getting one of the flash drives but I only had $15. She said, "If it makes you a fan, I can let one go for $15." She sold it to me and then I asked if they had an email list, which they did, so she added me to that as well.

So now, after one $5 show, they've earned a fan who will see them whenever they're in town (they're not local), and will buy their new albums, because they took the time to engage on a personal level. I'm not saying all bands should earn fans one by one, but I think the flash drive thing is a great idea, and I'm now far more aware of them than I would be after seeing most bands at a local show.
How will you buy their new albums if they don't sell individual albums anymore?
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Old 01-22-13, 08:21 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

I should have specified. They sell individual albums online as MP3 downloads. When they release a new album, they press a limited number of CDs, and when those sell out, they continue to sell the music as a download at a cheaper price. They don't sell individual albums at their shows.
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Old 01-22-13, 10:46 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Well, as I predicted a couple of years ago sales have continued to decline. The industry is on life support. That's not a good thing.

It takes money to record professional quality albums. Bands, for the most part, can't do that on their own. I'm just glad that I grew up in an era where there was a ton of great music still coming out. I don't think that it's coincidence that new music pretty much turned to shit (not all of it, but a majority of it) once illegal downloads became common.
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Old 01-22-13, 11:35 PM
  #118  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Perhaps if the industry had read this thread back in 2010 they'd be better off? But hey, Trust me....Gene Simmons ain't hurtin'. His Bank account is still fat like his head.
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Old 01-22-13, 11:40 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Well, as I predicted a couple of years ago sales have continued to decline. The industry is on life support. That's not a good thing.

It takes money to record professional quality albums. Bands, for the most part, can't do that on their own. I'm just glad that I grew up in an era where there was a ton of great music still coming out. I don't think that it's coincidence that new music pretty much turned to shit (not all of it, but a majority of it) once illegal downloads became common.
Some Canadian band I've never heard of (Protest The Hero) just grossed hundreds of thousands of dollars in a single day on indie gogo. I'm not sure the sky is falling.

Also, there's a ton of great new music. If you think new music is so bad, you're either not looking very hard or you're stuck longing for the heydays of bands that were great decades ago.
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Old 01-22-13, 11:49 PM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Some Canadian band I've never heard of (Protest The Hero) just grossed hundreds of thousands of dollars in a single day on indie gogo. I'm not sure the sky is falling.

Also, there's a ton of great new music. If you think new music is so bad, you're either not looking very hard or you're stuck longing for the heydays of bands that were great decades ago.
I shouldn't have to look that hard to find good new music. I never really had to back then. It was in your face. In all the rock magazines, at the record stores - hell, you could just go through the racks and find cool new bands and try them out. The record companies used to do the legwork for you in getting the product in the stores and helping the bands' managment coordinate promotion of their albums.

No more racks, no more physical product to go through, and no label support.

Frankly, I don't have the time to research good new bands. The good stuff is hard to find now. It was hard NOT to find 20, 30, and 40 years ago.

(Now, I have had some people forward me some good new stuff to play on my radio station, but if not for that I would have never even heard of these bands...)
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Old 01-23-13, 12:52 AM
  #121  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

B5Erik, can you link where it says the original Bleach artist was paid for his work on the downlow by Simmons and Company?
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Old 01-23-13, 01:18 AM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Also, there's a ton of great new music. If you think new music is so bad, you're either not looking very hard or you're stuck longing for the heydays of bands that were great decades ago.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
I shouldn't have to look that hard to find good new music. I never really had to back then. It was in your face. In all the rock magazines, at the record stores - hell, you could just go through the racks and find cool new bands and try them out. The record companies used to do the legwork for you in getting the product in the stores and helping the bands' managment coordinate promotion of their albums.

No more racks, no more physical product to go through, and no label support.

Frankly, I don't have the time to research good new bands. The good stuff is hard to find now. It was hard NOT to find 20, 30, and 40 years ago.

(Now, I have had some people forward me some good new stuff to play on my radio station, but if not for that I would have never even heard of these bands...)
I see both sides of this, as I come from your generation B5Erik, and we have a lot of simiar taste in music. I agree with a lot if your points, as there used to be a lot more artist development, label support and promotion that is virtually non-existent these days. However, all that said, I'm slightly more inclined to side with Supermallet on this one.

It's just as easy to find good new music now, as it was back then, and if anything, it's easier, with more personal and quicker access to information. In my area there are no less music stores around. If anything there's more, and I live in suburban Maine, for chrissakes. You can still walk into any one if them and flip through the racks in search of new and interesting music. Rock music magazines still exist, there's still radio, and we also have tons of music blogs and podcasts, as well as forum sites like this very one, which we didn't then. You can log on to any number of sites from Amazon to Spotify and check out samples of bands and their music for free, which again, you couldn't back in the day. None of these things are hard to do.

I'm sorry, but there's really no good excuse to say you can't still find good music these days. There may be less of it, but it's still out there.
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Old 01-23-13, 02:36 AM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Whats hard about going on Itunes, going to the new release section, clicking "see all," browsing through and giving a couple a listen. This is way easier in my opinion than saving up 15 dollars to go purchase a cd only knowing a song or two and finding out the album sucks. The whole "i dont want to look hard" is such a cop out argument because now it is easier than ever to find new music. I'm sorry, but what the hell is a cover art going to tell me, or what is a biased review from a magazine going to tell me.
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Old 01-23-13, 06:04 AM
  #124  
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

My main interest has always been alternative bands, so the internet makes it a lot easier for me to listen to new bands than it was before. Gone are the days of desperately trying to find a good radio station that would play something other than mainstream music.
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Old 01-23-13, 06:16 AM
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Re: Gene Simmons vs Pirates (and 4chan)

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Frankly, I don't have the time to research good new bands. The good stuff is hard to find now. It was hard NOT to find 20, 30, and 40 years ago.
That's complete nonsense. The internet has made it obscenely easy to find new music that fits whatever your taste is. You can look up pretty much any band and hear their music instantly, you can access an incredibly more diverse array of radio stations and you can use things like Pandora to find stuff similar to what you already like.
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