Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

Although the real-world example shows how TRoS's execution is flawed, since that indicates that when the villain is defeated, they don't slink away into hiding for 30 years, but stay publicly visible to rally their supporters and take back control. There's no reason to present Snoke or anyone else as a false front, when Palpatine leading the defeated Empire would've been its best chance to regain power.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

Palpatine at the top again would make him a major target, before he has time to rally supporters. Perhaps 30 years was a bit of a delay isn't too unbelievable as he managed to make an incredible sized fleet. If he hadn't been found out, he could have waited till he was ready then launched the whole thing and then swept the galaxy in one fell swoop.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

The same could have been said of the Prequels. The kids that actually enjoyed them were in the minority, but because they were young, that was their Star Wars. 20 years later and we can't escape Clone Wars era stories. The younger generation has Rey, Finn and Poe and in 20 years, they'll be enjoying sequel era stories just like the prequel fans.

You sound very bitter. Not every movie is for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

I will agree on one thing, bringing back Palpatine was lazy and uninspired.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

Yeah, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a real-world perspective, but the politics in Star Wars have always been kind of shallow and wonky.

My biggest beef with "somehow Palaptine returned" is that by bringing him back from the dead (even though you could handwave his offscreen death in ROTJ away in many ways), they more or less turned him into a Freddy Krueger kind of villain who can constantly escape death and destruction.

The villain in the sequel trilogy -- Snoke or anyone/thing else they could come up with -- should have been the power behind Palpatine, or some kind of ancient Dark Side threat, and not just a repainted Palpatine action figure. Abeloth? The spirit of the original Sith?

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

The Dark Empire comics and the Thrawn novels were a real breath of fresh air for Star Wars fans back in the early 90s. There had been no new Star Wars for several years. And even then, the last things that got released were those awful Droids and Ewoks cartoons.

As I said in the post above I'm not really a fan of bringing back Palpatine, but if they're going to do it, the comics/novels -- which exist in a sort of a canonical limbo -- are the place to do it.

I can also understand why they would want to make a big move like resurrecting Palpatine in the initial return of the comics. It had been ten years since we had any real Star Wars content, so they might as well make a big swing right out of the gate.

The Heir to the Empire trilogy and Dark Empire comics really complemented each other well, and back then, if you were a Star Wars fan, it was like Holy shit, it's really back!

Unfortunately, I kind of ditched the EU not long after that because I was in college and didn't have the time or money to budget for all of my interests. And they also started flooding the market with content, and I knew it would quickly dilute itself.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

Wasn't the original rumour regarding Luke's role in TLJ that he was on that island holding back some ancient evil? Basically having him be like the Grail Guardian from IJ&TLC, unable to leave the temple island. That would have been a far more fitting end for the character, already sacrificing himself for the greater good, rather than be an angry old hermit.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

That sounds like a rumor someone made up, sure, but it doesn't seem supported by TFA.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

Well TFA only showed the fire flashback and the Knights of Ren. There's nothing to say that some grander evil (not merely a resurrected/cloned/whatever Palpatine) couldn't have been pulling the strings. But then Johnson did whatever he wanted with what Abrams set up. Of course that was mostly to have TLJ ignore TFA. Then Abrams had TRoS retcon most of TLJ, because supposedly Kathleen Kennedy didn't like how Trevorrow planned to pay off in DotF what was set up in TLJ.

Honestly, although what Trevorrow had in mind wasn't perfect, at least it would have built upon what came before. Instead, the ST seems to have taken its cues from the Highlander sequels.

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Bitter? Nah, more like frustrated since I was hoping the sequels would get it right but they really didn’t. They had a rich world to draw from. Plenty of backstory and established characters to work with. They had unlimited budgets and could have brought in whatever talent they needed to make sure it came out right. They even had time on their side. It’s like screwing up grandmas cookie recipe when you have the exact ingredients, instructions and the same stove but they still come out overcooked and not very tasty.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

What is most frustrating to me is the fact, that they made the same mistake twice, knowingly. The Force Awakens was a good start. Abrams played it safe, but in my opinion brought back Star Wars feeling. They should have made sure, that the next director builts on this, Rian Johnson didn't and fans were disappointed. Now they should have worked with the new status quo and Abrams changed everything, again.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

My biggest problem with TFA is it is just mostly a rehash of Star Wars... nothing original.

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Not every movie is for everyone... except that Disney, literally, tries to be everything to everyone. They are the exact definition of trying to appeal to every single person on the planet.

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That was fine to get the thing rolling again, like Creed.

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I disagree. It was egregiously lazy writing, especially as a sequel to the OT, which already had planet killers as the big threat in both ANH and ROTJ. One of the biggest complaints about ROTJ is that we'd already been there and done that with the Death Star in ANH and it felt repetitive. Abrams really couldn't come up with a new idea when asked to write a movie for one of the most popular franchises in history? It's like he watched ANH and just made a checklist of things to copy. The parallels between Rey and OT Luke should have been enough to resonate with SW fans. We didn't need everything else to be copied, too. It was such a wasted opportunity.

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Get out of my head! ;) Exactly what I was thinking sitting in the theater watching TFA.

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Even though my mind was thinking that, I still wanted it to take the awful taste of the prequels out of my mouth. .. then along came Mandalorian.. to wash the last 3 movies out.. and finally Andor gave me the adult experience I was looking for. :shrug:

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

I don't disagree with you, but I still think to get the feeling back, after the prequels didn't really deliver, it was fine (not great) to restart Star Wars with something familiar. Of course it hadn't be that close to A New Hope, but the movie had two jobs, tell a Star Wars story, that's true to the original trilogy (which the sequels didn't do) and set up new characters. The movie did both. It was Rian Johnson's job to built from it and he didn't.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

I'm not going to beat the dead horse TLJ arguments too much, but I'll just say I disagree completely with your last sentence. Rian Johnson absolutely built from it - he just built it in a direction some people didn't like. Everything in TLJ logically progressed from what TFA set up (and, for that matter, what was set up in the OT about the characters that started there). It just so happened that some people had their own preconceived notions about what direction it should have taken and they hated that it was different from what they had set in their minds.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

Johnson totally sidelined the 2nd lead of the first movie. Besides the connection between Rey and Kylo Ren, there is a hind of romance between Rey and Finn, which is ignored in The Last Jedi. Finn is a side character, gets a new potential love interest and has nothing to do with Rey. The character who's set up as the main villain gets killed. I don't see how that's a continuation of the things Abrams set up. Like I said, the first movie's job was to introduce the new characters and Johnson ignored to important characters.
I'd say Johnson did a better job, than Abrams in the third, JJ should have played the hand that Johnson dealt him, he actually made it worse by trying to repair things.

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What's weird is that Johnson was actually playing the hand Abrams originally dealt. In an interview after all three movies were released, Adam Driver stated that Kylo Ren's arc ended up different to what Abrams pitched Driver. Kylo Ren was meant to start out as a semi-conflicted Vader wannabe that in the end is not redeemed, instead taking his place as the big bad for the foreseeable future. So Rian Johnson opting to have Snoke suddenly killed off in TLJ was playing into those plans. Then Trevorrow changed that by having Kylo Ren die resurrecting Rey at the end of what was to be DotF. Abrams stuck to that change but altered how Kylo Ren ever learned that skill (having him just imitate Rey instead) when he made TRoS.

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But if Kylo was NOT redeemed then we wouldn’t have gotten the single cringiest kiss in movie history!

Did you guys ever think about that?!

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

I believe this is the first time I’ve ever heard this particular complaint about TLJ. Finn’s initial attraction to Rey is pretty quickly established as one-sided and their relationship as platonic in TFA, so I have zero problem with a potential romance not being explored in the next movie. Separate storylines for the leads is not inherently an issue either, in my opinion. Luke is separated from Leia and Han for almost the entirety of The Empire Strikes Back and I’d say that movie turned out pretty good. :) I do think Finn’s storyline is the weakest part of TLJ (particularly the whole Canto Bight sequence) but not because he’s apart from Rey.

This is what I mean about people having their own preconceived notions rather than going off of what was actually in the movie. Snoke has very little screen time in TFA and is shown to be the leader of the First Order, but that doesn’t mean he’s being established as the “main villain” of the whole trilogy. All of the meaningful conflict in the actual plot of TFA establishes Kylo Ren as the main antagonist. A bunch of fan theories from people who completely missed the point built up Snoke to be something more than was ever actually portrayed on screen and fanboys latched onto them and then were disappointed when none of those theories panned out. Everything that transpires with Rey, Kylo Ren and Snoke in TLJ is a natural progression from TFA and is also done really well IMO.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

All of this. Rey and Finn had the makings of a great relationship but they just had to toss that out and shove the Reylo BS down our throats. What about Poe? Dude got nothing to work with other than the blow up shit xwing pilot routine. I suppose they threw Keri Russel at him in Rise(and what a rise she must have generated :D ) but still. Who is Poe and what’s is story? He has none. Poor Finn though. I liked that character so much after TFA and then they dumped Rose Tico on the poor guy. Then in rise they reset him again per se. What. The. Hell?

Last Jedi also turned Luke into a family and friend abandoning sloth. Sure, he’s mad about some things and I get it. He should be. But that’s NOT the Luke we went through three films with. That’s not how Luke would have behaved at all. Ditching Leia and Han. Leaving the rebellion. Just being a selfish ass. Nope. Sorry Rian… you can’t circumvent expectations" that blatantly. I know Luke came around at the end of the film but that was for like ten minutes. Great death scene though for Luke, I loved that and got emotional myself.

And yes. The villain problem. First saga had Vader as the baddie for all three films. The prequels had Palpatine as the baddie for all three films. The sequels? Ehhh. Ummm. Nope. Hard fail. Kylo Ren was the best part of the sequels and Driver was terrific. But, they dumped that idea and went all soap opera so him and Rey could have some heavily forced and faked "love" story tacked on. Just vomit worthy.

Force Awakens was safe but it had to be to get things off the ground. From there? The next two films feel completely disconnected. Couldn’t stand either of the next two films. And don’t even get me started on Palpatine coming back. Ugh. 😣

Oh right! The kiss that generated audible groans from the theater I was in. By that point I was so mad about Palpatine and the entire film that I couldn’t believe they added that too. Rise is the worst Star Wars content ever. I’d rather watch the holiday special on a 4:3 screen with mono sound.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

I'm fine with the idea to make Kylo Ren the uber-villain, but it would have worked way better (or at all), if he'd killed Snoke at a later date. Show Snoke as a dangerous and powerful leader and his assassination has an impact. The way Rian Johnson did it, made Snoke into a throw away character and Kylo Ren into a teenager who wants to impress the new girl. Anyway while I'm not a fan of the direction Rian Johnson took, it was the way bigger mistake to roll everything back.

Re: The General Star Wars Discussion Thread
 

But that's all based on your own expectations rather than on what was actually portrayed of Snoke in TFA, which is exactly my point. There's nothing wrong with holding the opinion that the killing of Snoke in TLJ could have been more impactful if done differently, but it is wrong to say Snoke was set up as the main villain in TFA, because he wasn't.