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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

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Old 01-05-18 | 11:32 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by fujishig
What's funny is that we still get our contrived, one in a million gambit works out in nearly every other scene: Poe's risky bombing run to start the movie...
You have an odd definition of "works out." Poe's risky bombing run loses them every bomber ship they have, causes Leia to demote him, and the victory of destroying the dreadnaught is quickly undercut by Snoke's massive ship showing up.

Finn and Rose's plan ultimately fails as well. Them basically falling into meeting DJ follows the kind of standard plotting for "one-in-a-million" plan where there's setbacks but it ultimately gets pulled off, but in this case the plan fails right at the point you think they're about to win.

Rey giving herself up also doesn't work out the way she planned, with Kylo coming back to the light. Instead, she inadvertently led him further down the dark path by helping him kill his master and take his place.

Holdo's last ditch effort wasn't really one-in-a-million, but something that in nearly any other circumstance would've been a sacrifice too great to make. The fact that it saved Finn and Rose at basically the last minute is a bit contrived though.

The Crait skimmers were also a complete bust. Several people were killed, and they ultimately didn't stop the First Order from firing the door buster.

Originally Posted by fujishig
What ended up happening, though, was making that casino subplot stand out even more as just an incongruent waste of time.
The idea that the casino subplot was a waste of time because Finn and Rose ultimately failed is one that I feel comes from people that don't understand the point of that plan, which was for it to fail, because one-in-a-million gambits often fail, and Poe had to learn that. It also provided character development for Finn and Rose. But it wasn't a waste, because our characters learned from its failure.


Originally Posted by fujishig
As far as Luke being too old: I thought the reason Anakin was considered too old....
Lucas did so many retcons with the prequels. There was never any indication that Jedi had to be trained from birth before that, and it makes Luke's training in the original trilogy seem so odd. Obi-Wan said "when I first met him, your father was already a great pilot," which I think most interpreted as an older person piloting fighters in the Clone Wars, not pod racing.

Originally Posted by fujishig
Obi Wan basically trains him for a couple of days, then lets himself be killed in front of Luke to motivate him (what? isn't that based on emotions?)....
The going theory is that Obi-Wan did that to attach his force ghost to Luke. Luke hears Obi-Wan voice just moments later. Obi-Wan probably figured he had to face Vader due to them being able to sense each other, used it as a distraction to let the rest get back to the Falcon, but knew he'd ultimately lose to Vader, so lost on his own terms. There is the line about "if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine," so I don't know if Obi-Wan was able to add his strength and skill to Luke in any way.

Originally Posted by fujishig
Yoda reluctantly trains him after complaining he's too emotional...
Yoda: Much anger in him... like his father.
Obi-Wan: [voice] Was I any different when you taught me?

This indicates that having a lot of emotion wasn't an immediate disqualification, since Obi-Wan was apparently the same at the beginning. Again, this got changed in the prequels, since Lucas apparently felt that Anakin had to be trained outside the system, or that there had to be obvious red flags from the beginning.

Originally Posted by fujishig
So it makes some sense that Rey was abandoned on a far away planet with no knowledge of the Force or her parents, every emotional bond she has there gets removed, you lie to her about her parents (maybe)...
Who do you think lies to her about her parents? Rey is apparently an unknown, and nobody really says anything about her parents and who they could be until Kylo makes her confront it.

Originally Posted by fujishig
The part with Holdo that I don't get is: why keep it a secret once Poe starts his little coup? Or heck, once you start putting people in the brig for trying to abandon ship because they think their leader is clueless? It's plot contrivance.
There was apparently a need for opsec. Would knowledge of the plan have stopped all from abandoning ship? And if some successfully abandoned ship but were caught by the First Order, how long before they gave up the plan? Would there have been some looking to actively defect to save their hides?

The little Poe knew ended up screwing The Resistance over, since he told Finn and Rose with DJ overhearing, and DJ used that info later to gain his freedom from the First order.
Old 01-05-18 | 03:01 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Even if Canto Bight was supposed to fail, Fin and Rose didn't know that, and the second they get down there Fin turns into a gobsmacked rube and Rose becomes an "Animals are People Too" activist. They're both immediately distracted from the mission.

And, after the big chase and they let the one horse-dog go, they say "Now it's worth it." It in this case being the destruction of the Resistance Fleet and everyone they know, basically. But they put some holes in walls, knocked over a few tables, and freed some animals, so that's okay.

Just got back from seeing this, again, for the fourth time. The movie on a whole just gets better and better, but I find Canto Bight nearly impossible to defend.
Old 01-05-18 | 03:25 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by lopper
Even if Canto Bight was supposed to fail, Fin and Rose didn't know that, and the second they get down there Fin turns into a gobsmacked rube and Rose becomes an "Animals are People Too" activist. They're both immediately distracted from the mission....
Saying it's a problem because it's too tangential, goes on for too long, it loses the sense of urgency of the fleet being in danger, has people acting out of character, etc. is different than saying it's a waste of time because the plan ultimately failed.

I think they included it to expand the scope of the series, outside of just Rebellion vs First Order, but tying it to the ticking clock of the fleet's survival possible undermines it a bit since the audience is thinking too much of that plot. If they had broken Finn and Rose away from the fleet chase more plot-wise, it might've been more tolerable. Nobody really complains the Rey is wasting her time with Luke, because she's unaware of the danger the fleet is in.
Old 01-05-18 | 03:44 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Saying it's a problem because it's too tangential, goes on for too long, it loses the sense of urgency of the fleet being in danger, has people acting out of character, etc. is different than saying it's a waste of time because the plan ultimately failed.
They may be different, but both are valid opinions. I would also add that it was a waste because it failed so unspectacularly. It just fizzled, as did so many of the failures in the movie. There was almost no dramatic tension in the failures. Everyone just looked very, very incompetent.

Originally Posted by Jay G.
I think they included it to expand the scope of the series, outside of just Rebellion vs First Order, but tying it to the ticking clock of the fleet's survival possible undermines it a bit since the audience is thinking too much of that plot. If they had broken Finn and Rose away from the fleet chase more plot-wise, it might've been more tolerable. Nobody really complains the Rey is wasting her time with Luke, because she's unaware of the danger the fleet is in.
The ticking clock aspect also adds to the poor execution of the side-trip in another way. It just doesn't add up, time-wise. They make the trip to the casino planet, search for the code-breaker, get arrested, meet up with DJ in jail, find a way to escape, free the animals, RIDE the animals, get rescued by DJ in a ship he had time to steal, and manage to make it all the way back to the fleet, all in the few hours of time the fleet had left before it lost power? That is too much of a stretch for me, even in a Star Wars movie.
Old 01-05-18 | 05:08 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

For the fans here who liked TLJ and trashing the PT, I think there are alot of short memories here. I remember when ROTS came out, it got great ratings from the critics and many fans were saying, 'This was a return to SW....' narrative. Now all I hear from the internet is that ALL the PT movies are total shit, and they were never loved.

I still say that TLJ will get a re-evaluation by everyone (including me) when it comes to BluRay/Streaming, and the dust of the internet fighting has settled. I actually think the opinions of the movie on both sides will be closer then it is now. The fans who love it will give it another few looks at home, and say they still like it, but it may not be as great as they thought. And the people who didn't like it, will give it another look, and say it's not as bad as they thought.
Old 01-05-18 | 05:35 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Uh no. I think at the time most everyone thought that of the Prequel Trilogy it was the best of the three after two fairly crappy films before it but I don’t think it was universally loved or anything. You can’t really compare any of the prequels to the new films in terms of quality. Also let’s not forget that when The Empire Strikes Back came out it wasn’t exactly loved by everyone either but now it’s pretty much heralded as the best Star Wars film.
Old 01-05-18 | 06:10 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

You guys hear the latest rumor about Disney in retaliation for Mark Hamill's negative comments about Luke Skywalker in the press tour, killed him off the movie without him knowing? So he saw it for the first time at the world premiere. Ergo, the "confused look" on his face after the screening.

God, I love the internet.
Old 01-05-18 | 06:12 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by coli
For the fans here who liked TLJ and trashing the PT, I think there are alot of short memories here. I remember when ROTS came out, it got great ratings from the critics and many fans were saying, 'This was a return to SW....' narrative. Now all I hear from the internet is that ALL the PT movies are total shit, and they were never loved.

I still say that TLJ will get a re-evaluation by everyone (including me) when it comes to BluRay/Streaming, and the dust of the internet fighting has settled. I actually think the opinions of the movie on both sides will be closer then it is now. The fans who love it will give it another few looks at home, and say they still like it, but it may not be as great as they thought. And the people who didn't like it, will give it another look, and say it's not as bad as they thought.
Nah. My opinion hasn't changed after 3 theatrical viewings, why would it suddenly change when I see it on a smaller screen?

I will admit to being caught up in the hype for Episode I, but after Clones, I really just watched Sith to complete it all. And I haven't really visited any of those since even when it's on TV. They're just...bad.
Old 01-05-18 | 06:50 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G.
People make this complaint about Snoke, but then they seem to be fogetting that The Emperor couldn't tell that his apprentice was about to grab him and throw him down a well. And the Emperor's best defense was to scream like a little bitch while shooting lightning randomly.

At least with Snoke you get the impression that it'd be hard to get close to him, with the way he force throws things around the room, and that Kylo had to trick Snoke to kill him instead of just acting on impulse like Vader.
You'll get no argument from me about the Emperor being a weak-ass character. I found him to be quite ineffective in ROTJ.

Besides the weak-ass Emperor, I find ROTJ to be a weak film what with the teddy bears winning against dudes who can construct Death Stars; the stupid bike speeder race through the forest (why didn't they go above the forest trees instead of racing through them and running into the trees? Why were there bike speeders again? Oh, yeah, that's right. They needed to sell some sort of new toys; the lack of enthusiasm of Harrison Ford in reprising his role; the Sarlacc pit whose "digestive system dissolves prey into nutrients over a period of several thousand years." Thousands of years? What the...? How does that work exactly? The Luke-Leia sister reveal. And on and on...

I saw this film at the U.S.C. film school in a showing with the producers of the film and the faculty of the school when the film was released. The reaction was lukewarm from the audience as the producers put on forced smiles and rallied behind the film.

I saw ESB on Hollywood Boulevard to a packed house during the opening week. The audience was captivated by it and it was widely loved. The main sticking point that most critics did like about the movie is that it ended as a cliffhanger and did not resolve all plots and the critics felt it was an "unfinished" movie. Some complained that you needed to spend more money on the next movie to find out how it all ends up. Unfortunately (IMO), ROTJ turned out to be a disappointing conclusion to a trilogy that was building towards something great. (Just like The Godfather trilogy--which had a weak final film.)
Old 01-05-18 | 08:58 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by coli
For the fans here who liked TLJ and trashing the PT, I think there are alot of short memories here. I remember when ROTS came out, it got great ratings from the critics and many fans were saying, 'This was a return to SW....' narrative. Now all I hear from the internet is that ALL the PT movies are total shit, and they were never loved...
Well, Episode III had some crazy positive reviews before it was released. It hit 92% on Rottentomatoes a week before it came out:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050512...m/star_wars_3/

However it was only around 83% approval on Rottentomatoes a week later when it came out. This was a damn sight better than the EpI and EpII scores, but it wasn't universally loved:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050519...m/star_wars_3/

Still, it got better reviews than the previous two, and some reviews were crazy enthusiastic about it, which convinced me to watch it... when it hit HBO. Nope, it was still crap. First impression.
Old 01-05-18 | 09:04 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Revenge of the Sith is the best of the prequels, which is not to say it's good. The order goes something like this:

Revenge of the Sith = passable
The Phantom Menace = pretty bad
Attack of the Clones = utterly awful
Old 01-05-18 | 09:19 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by coli
For the fans here who liked TLJ and trashing the PT, I think there are alot of short memories here. I remember when ROTS came out, it got great ratings from the critics and many fans were saying, 'This was a return to SW....' narrative. Now all I hear from the internet is that ALL the PT movies are total shit, and they were never loved.
Nope. Sith was always the best of the bunch but that's damning with faint praise.

Originally Posted by Kal-El
Nah. My opinion hasn't changed after 3 theatrical viewings, why would it suddenly change when I see it on a smaller screen?

I will admit to being caught up in the hype for Episode I, but after Clones, I really just watched Sith to complete it all. And I haven't really visited any of those since even when it's on TV. They're just...bad.
Same here. I think the last time I saw Revenge of the Sith was when it first came out on DVD. That was the last time I watched any of the prequels. I'm not even convinced I watched it then. Theatrical may have been the last time I saw RotS. On the flipside I saw TLJ twice already and wouldn't mind going again before it leaves theaters.

I was never outright 'against' the prequels, they just weren't for me. Now that we have three new SW films, it just shines a light on how bad they really were.
Old 01-05-18 | 09:57 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Franchot
You'll get no argument from me about the Emperor being a weak-ass character. I found him to be quite ineffective in ROTJ.

Besides the weak-ass Emperor, I find ROTJ to be a weak film what with the teddy bears winning against dudes who can construct Death Stars; the stupid bike speeder race through the forest (why didn't they go above the forest trees instead of racing through them and running into the trees? Why were there bike speeders again? Oh, yeah, that's right. They needed to sell some sort of new toys; the lack of enthusiasm of Harrison Ford in reprising his role; the Sarlacc pit whose "digestive system dissolves prey into nutrients over a period of several thousand years." Thousands of years? What the...? How does that work exactly? The Luke-Leia sister reveal. And on and on...

I saw this film at the U.S.C. film school in a showing with the producers of the film and the faculty of the school when the film was released. The reaction was lukewarm from the audience as the producers put on forced smiles and rallied behind the film.

I saw ESB on Hollywood Boulevard to a packed house during the opening week. The audience was captivated by it and it was widely loved. The main sticking point that most critics did like about the movie is that it ended as a cliffhanger and did not resolve all plots and the critics felt it was an "unfinished" movie. Some complained that you needed to spend more money on the next movie to find out how it all ends up. Unfortunately (IMO), ROTJ turned out to be a disappointing conclusion to a trilogy that was building towards something great. (Just like The Godfather trilogy--which had a weak final film.)
Insofar as Snoke and Palpatine go, the Force seems generally ineffective when it comes to reading people. In the prequels, the Jedi never picked up that Palpatine was a Sith. Vader never sensed Leia was his daughter in ANH. Palpatine never sensed Vader's betrayal. Not surprising that Snoke never saw it coming with Kylo.

And, yeah, the speeder bikes.... even watching it as a kid, I knew there's no way those would be anything but suicide machines in a freaking forest.

And the Sarlacc, the thousand year thing would seem to be more of a folklore story. If you didn't suffocate in the beast's digestive tract, you'd eventually dehydrate or starve.
Old 01-06-18 | 08:06 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Mike86
Uh no. I think at the time most everyone thought that of the Prequel Trilogy it was the best of the three after two fairly crappy films before it but I don’t think it was universally loved or anything. You can’t really compare any of the prequels to the new films in terms of quality. Also let’s not forget that when The Empire Strikes Back came out it wasn’t exactly loved by everyone either but now it’s pretty much heralded as the best Star Wars film.
I know many fans have brought up ESB, and the fans were split in 1980 just like they are now. The only difference is the split was the opposite of what is happening now.

I was 8 years old in 1980 and I remember the split among my family and friends. The more casual fan goer (like my older brother and my mom) that loved SW (ANH) did not like ESB as it was too dark, they didn't like the Vader reveal and were pretty mad at the cliffhanger. They honestly never came back to the SW universe again, as my older brother and his friends still contend that Star Wars (ANH) is the best and only great SW film. I think my older brother went to ROTJ with me in 1983 (cause he had a license by then) but he has not seen the PT or any Disney SW movies since.

The fans that loved ESB like me really cemented us as fans for life. ESB is essentially what made SW the franchise it is today because alot of us here are still turning out for these movies on the coat-tails of ESB and the OT. Without ESB, the SW franchise is ET or Jaws, where it's a beloved classic original movie and it stops there.

Whereas the Split in the fanbase is different for TLJ as it seems like the hardcore fans are the ones who are most upset (mostly with the portrayal of Luke), and the casual fans are the ones who like it because they are not as invested in the OT characters as the diehards. I can say from my co-workers, there are 4 that like/love TLJ and they are all casual SW fans, and only see them once in the theater just like every blockbuster movie. Then there are 3 diehard fans I work with who disdain the movie (and saw TFA multiple times) and haven't been back to see it.

Now of course I am generalizing as not every casual or diehard fan feels this way, but that seems to be the trend overall. And that is why it's different then the split in fandom over ESB. ESB really cemented SW fans for life, where TLJ is actually turning off alot of diehards (now if they come back for Episode 9 and Han Solo) will be determined in 2018 and 2019.
Old 01-06-18 | 09:49 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by coli
Whereas the Split in the fanbase is different for TLJ as it seems like the hardcore fans are the ones who are most upset...
I disagree with this assertion. I think there's a split within the "hardcore" fans about this film. And I don't think there's one single factor that defines those that dislike it, although the "look what they did to Luke" faction is pretty vocal.

I consider myself a "hardcore" fan of the series (even sought out and watched the Holiday Special) and I enjoyed the film and didn't mind how Luke was presented. I felt it was a different direction for the series.

There's been posts from people in this thread who have seen the film multiple times (up to 5 times), so there's obviously a "hardcore" contingent that loves this film.

I don't think Disney is going to be sweating attendance on future films due to this film "driving away" anyone. The critics loved the film, the masses like it, and there's a healthy amount of hardcore fans that do too. I don't think the size of the haters is as big as the internet echo chamber makes it out to be.
Old 01-06-18 | 10:28 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G.

I don't think Disney is going to be sweating attendance on future films due to this film "driving away" anyone. The critics loved the film, the masses like it, and there's a healthy amount of hardcore fans that do too. I don't think the size of the haters is as big as the internet echo chamber makes it out to be.
I hope you can re-read my post because my argument was never to put a number on how many people love or hate this movie, as I honestly don't really care what the Critics and Audience score on Rotten Tomatoes is.

My whole point was in response to someone who compared TLJ to ESB and how there was a backlash to ESB in 1980. All I was saying that the backlash to each movie was different. The more casual fan was turned off to ESB in 1980 because they weren't really interested in where the series was going compared to the crowd pleasing Star Wars in 1977. Where I have noticed the fans that are turned off with TLJ are the more diehard fans, especially those fans who didn't like the portrayal of Luke.

Now this is important, because apparently you didn't read this sentence from my last post: I am GENERALIZING so not every diehard and casual fan feels this way. I am not saying the movie is hated by the masses, I'm not saying Star Wars is going to die as a franchise because of this movie. I was just saying that the fans that are mad at this movie are hardcore fans, and I'd be interested to see if they come back for Han Solo and Episode 9. Will the franchise survive without them? Of course, but that is not the point I was making.
Old 01-06-18 | 11:42 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Look I hate saying it because I am one to a degree but Original Trilogy purists are whiny and never satisfied with anything. You didn’t get the portrayal of Luke that you wanted, because we all know that a late sixties Luke should have been still having these great adventures like in the EU. Honestly think about how silly that sounds. If this film had been made ten or fifteen years ago even then maybe but it wasn’t really logical for Luke at this stage in his life in my opinion. As is the film does a good job of explaining why he is the way he is and it seems to be a bit of a common thread amongst the Jedi as Obi-Wan and Yoda also basically become reclusive. Life moves on after forty years and people change. Luke’s reasons for how he was were perfectly understandable.

Hypothetically what would have been your preference? To have Luke go along with Rey to face Kylo and likely be struck down in a manner similar to Obi-Wan (so fans could have bitched some more about another retread)? I don’t really see many other ways for it to go. Have Luke defeat Kylo but then you undermine your new characters and basically are saying that only nostalgia can win. Have Luke turn on Rey and join Kylo? That would have been another divisive decision.

I think there could be room for some more stories of Luke between Return of the Jedi and The Last Jedi but Hamill isn’t the one to portray that character anymore.

Last edited by Mike86; 01-06-18 at 12:04 PM.
Old 01-06-18 | 12:17 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

I do think a good number of people who didn't like Luke's portrayal would have been appeased had he lived on to the next movie, but then there'd be something else to complain about. Like I said earlier, some people want the OT characters to be featured, some want the new characters to be featured, so in the next film we have pretty much a clean slate with all three of the main OT cast gone (which wasn't their original intention, but life happened). The OT crowd can feel free to skip it (which they won't), and Star Wars can move on.

Then we can get Sebastian Stan Luke Skywalker movies and everyone will be happy (or complain about something else).
Old 01-06-18 | 02:55 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

I’m sure fans will bitch about a movie with a new actor as Luke because it’s different too.

Basically the franchise is in a no win situation with fanboys unless they just appease them by doing films that are more nostalgia driven. Star Wars seemingly more than any other franchise has this group that’s deadlocked into what their ideal version of the franchise is and if what they want isn’t what they get then they’re just whiny about it.

Rogue One is well liked for a newer film but it’s not as different as people want to believe. It’s got different characters and doesn’t follow the typical Star Wars formula but it did rely fairly heavily on nostalgia too if you really think about it. I mean the entire plot is setting up the original film. Plus they did throw in classic characters and re-used old footage and whatnot too.

Last edited by Mike86; 01-06-18 at 08:09 PM.
Old 01-06-18 | 03:14 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

I was at an event earlier today where a hadnful of Star Wars cosplayers attended. There was a badass Mara Jade. Too bad she was scrubbed with all the original EU.

I guess there is still a 40 year missing window between ROTJ and TFA where she could still exist. So when exactly did Luke abandon Ben and become a hermit, 5 years, tops? They didn't de-age Driver that much in the flashback clip. I guess if one were inclined to believe, she and Luke still could have been a thing in that 35 years, took off and had a kid (Rey?) never told Luke.

Of course this would piss off the "Rey shouldn't be a Skywalker" people.
Old 01-06-18 | 04:10 PM
  #1521  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by coli
Now this is important, because apparently you didn't read this sentence from my last post: I am GENERALIZING so not every diehard and casual fan feels this way....
And I don't think your generlization is accurate. You're trying to generalize it as "hardcore vs casual," but it's really a small subsection of "hardcore" fans vs everyone else. The deciding factor on one's reaction to this film isn't about how "hardcore" they are, but about specific elements and maybe specific character attachments.
Old 01-06-18 | 04:19 PM
  #1522  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
I was at an event earlier today where a hadnful of Star Wars cosplayers attended. There was a badass Mara Jade. Too bad she was scrubbed [along] with all the original EU...
I don't see why you so desperately need her to be part of the "official" canon. She's a fictional character. She didn't become less real because Disney isn't going to use her in the movies.

Back in the 90s, I loved the original Timothy Zahn trilogy. They were the Star Wars sequels I had been dreaming of, following the original characters, but introducing interesting new characters, like Thrawn and Mara Jade. But that was only a decade out from the last film. A lot of the follow-up novels were mess, and I stopped reading the Star Wars novels long before they devolved into a 5 tier continuity mess. And Lucas ended up undermining a lot of the EU with the prequels, showing that he wasn't going to let a gaggle of fan fiction writers tell him how the story had to go.

When Disney took over, I get why they "officially" did what had already been happening and state that the EU wasn't canon. I understood they were going to take the series into a new direction, and I wasn't going to expend any effort wishing that certain EU characters would make it into the new, "real" universe.
Old 01-06-18 | 07:04 PM
  #1523  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

I’ve been a hardcore fan most of my life, loved TLJ, and I lean towards agreeing with Jay G.
From my POV (which could be totally off base), there’s a fundamental division in how the mythology itself is interpreted. It’s been there since the EU and this movie has brought a big element back to the forefront.
In camp 1, there’s the people that few Jedi = good, Sith = bad, that the dark side is merely a perversion of the Force. There’s a good argument for this view, as I feel this is the correct lens for viewing the OT. However, with the PT and Clone Wars, things got murkier.
Which brings in camp 2. These people (myself included) have a view of the Force that’s evolved into more of a yin/yang dynamic. The dark side is an aspect of The Force, not a perversion of it. And that it’s possible to use both sides without necessarily becoming evil, ie the Gray Jedi concept.
These new movies seem to be heading firmly into camp 2, leaving the camp 1 people feeling unsatisfied.
Old 01-06-18 | 07:52 PM
  #1524  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Appears to be a pretty spot-on piece by Scott Mendelson concerning TLJ’s box office take (dated on the fourth of the month):

Box Office: 'The Last Jedi' Got Slammed For Performing Like A 'Star Wars' Movie

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme...-as-predicted/

As of today, Walt Disney’s Star Wars: The Last Jedi has earned $544.9 million after 20 days of domestic release, putting it at just over/under $550m at the end of its 21st day. If it cracks the arbitrary milestone at the end of its third week, as it enters its fourth weekend of release, it’ll be second-fastest film to pass said milestone, between Jurassic World (24 days) and The Force Awakens (11 days). It is still, by far, the second-fastest grossing movie in history behind The Force Awakens. And if it manages to hit $600m on Martin Luther King Day (or very soon after), it will still be the second-fastest movie to hit $600m.

Now, at some point, I’m guessing it’s going to start trailing the likes of Avatar and probably Titanic. At a glance, if it continues to play relatively close to Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (and thus has about 20% left to go), we’re probably looking at a domestic total of between $640 million and $660m in North America by the time it wraps up. It will probably sail past The Avengers ($623m) and will end up right over/under Jurassic World ($652m) and Titanic ($658m). All that’s at stake for the next month is whether it ends up as the fifth-biggest grossing movie of all time or the third-biggest grossing movie of all time.

Oh, and it has $1.108 billion worldwide thus far, making it the 18th-biggest grosser of all time in around three weeks of global play. What’s amusing about the narrative concerning the film’s performance thus far, at least since Christmas, is that the film came under fire for performing exactly as I discussed in the run-up to its release. Without any furhter ado…

1. It is the most frontloaded live-action Star Wars movie of all time.

If it gets to $660 million, that’s a 3x weekend-to-final multiplier, which is below the Force Awakens (3.77x) and Rogue One (3.43x). Return of the Jedi earned $252m from a then-record $23m Fri-Sun/$41m Wed-Mon Memorial Day frame in 1983. The Phantom Menace earned $431m from a $64m Fri-Sun/$105m Wed-Sun debut. Attack of the Clones earned $310m (counting the IMAX reissue later that year) from an $80m Fri-Sun/$110m Thurs-Sun debut in 2002. Revenge of the Sith earned $381m from a $108m Fri-Sun/$158m Thurs-Sun opening in 2005. No, I’m not counting Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back because they platformed before going into wide release. No, I’m obviously not counting the “Special Edition” reissues.

2. It will earn around 30% less than The Force Awakens.

And yes, as predicted many times going way back to right when The Force Awakens ended its run, this second installment of a given Star Wars trilogy is going to end up at around 28-32% less than The Force Awakens. The Empire Strikes Back ($209 million in 1980) earned 32% less than Star Wars ($307m in 1977). Attack of the Clones ($310m, or $302m sans IMAX reissue in 2002) made 28% less than The Phantom Menace ($431m in 1999). I don’t think it’s a national emergency if The Last Jedi earns 29-33% less than The Force Awakens ($937m in 2015). That’s not Star Wars in decline, it’s Star Wars being Star Wars.

The uncommonly huge opening weekend for The Last Jedi (especially for the month of December) indeed blunted some of those December legs. Those folks who thrilled to The Force Awakens who wanted to see another Star Wars episode did so either over the opening weekend or (relatively speaking) over the holiday break. The lack of new-ness, the lack of Harrison Ford, the general decline in theatrical moviegoing, an over-performing Jumanji and the fact that Last Jedi isn’t as swashbuckling-ly crowd-pleasing as Force Awakens all created a scenario where the film would make around 30% less than Force Awakens while scoring that 70% retention rate noticeably faster than almost any other big December release.

3. The overperformance of The Force Awakens threatened to make The Last Jedi look like a disappointment.

And yes, that The Force Awakens obscenely over performed created a scenario where The Last Jedi doing about as well as cautious realists expected The Force Awakens to do made the latter look like a failure. When a first movie massively overperforms, a perfectly okay gross from the sequel can look disappointing in comparison. Sure, Universal’s Ted made a stunning $550 million worldwide, but that doesn’t mean Ted 2 is a loser for only making $218m on a $68m budget. Ditto Marvel’s Avengers: Age of Ultron, Warner Bros.’ The Dark Knight Rises, Lionsgate’s Now You See Me 2 or Universal’s Neighbors: Sorority Rising which performed about as well as we expected the originals to do. Just because “part 1” overperforms doesn’t mean we can expect “part 2” to play likewise.

4. The “as-expected” performance of Star Wars: The Last Jedi put Walt Disney and Lucasfilm on the defensive.

I would argue the divisive fan reaction, and the hyperbolic reaction to said word-of-mouth (the angry minority was treated as a critical majority) along with that Rotten Tomatoes user score that fueled a million “Has The Last Jedi killed Star Wars?!” think pieces, created a negative spin and a negative narrative to the Rian Johnson movie playing exactly how it was always going to play. The Last Jedi, love it or hate it, performed exactly as reasonably should have been expected. It’s a slightly frontloaded Star Wars sequel that performed realistically compared to its overachieving Star Wars predecessor. And, to be honest, the attempts to create a negative media narrative is also in tune with prior Star Wars releases.

To quote that other sci-fi franchise, what happened happened and couldn’t have happened any other way. And I can’t wait until Memorial Day when we can do this again with Solo: A Star Wars Story.
Old 01-06-18 | 08:29 PM
  #1525  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Mike86
Basically the franchise is in a no win situation with fanboys unless they just appease them by doing films that are more nostalgia driven. Star Wars seemingly more than any other franchise has this group that’s deadlocked into what their ideal version of the franchise is and if what they want isn’t what they get then they’re just whiny about it.

Rogue One is well liked for a newer film but it’s not as different as people want to believe. It’s got different characters and doesn’t follow the typical Star Wars formula but it did rely fairly heavily on nostalgia too if you really think about it. I mean the entire plot is setting up the original film. Plus they did throw in classic characters and re-used old footage and whatnot too.
How is The Last Jedi not nostalgia driven? Just because Rian Johnson threw in a couple of lines about killing the past? Shit, most of TLJ was lifted out of the OT (when it wasn't ripping off Battlestar Galactica) and the ending just reset the Rebellion vs Empire paradigm that started the franchise forty years ago. TLJ is more nostalgia-driven than TFA -- and that's saying a lot.

Is this Disney's vision of Star Wars moving forward? An endless Rebels vs Empire conflict?

Can't say I'm terribly interested in that.


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