Re: Will DC fail?
 

I love the argument people try to use about those of us who like Marvel films giving them a pass. As if the films they're making aren't good and people are just saying they're good because they're fanboys. That's not the case at all really, Marvel has made a series of good to great films over the course of seven plus years and are still going strong. Some of the films are better than others but they haven't made a truly bad film.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

It's no different from when those of us who enjoyed Man of Steel or any other DC film got called the same as if some of those films weren't any good.

True. But my point remains. The deservedly great momentum Marvel has is allowing even the not so great films to be held higher than they should be. But hey, if you like a film you like a film. Who cares what others think. I know I don't when it comes to DC films....

I'm a DC fan...but bottom line, I support ALL COMIC films and I want them ALL to be successful no matter what Comic company owns them.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

But Marvel is stretching that history into places it hasn't earned, with Civil War being a prime example. The whole "He's my friend." "So was I." exchange plays great in the trailer, until you think about Cap and Iron Man's actual interactions over the course of a whole two movies.

"He's my friend." "Well I guess I was kind of an antagonist dickhead" is more apt, but I guess it doesn't hit the same notes.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I disagree I guess. We've only seen them in two films together yes but its implied that they have a history with each other not necessarily seen on screen that's happened since The Avengers. Plus by and large the storylines Marvel goes with are set up to some extent at least. Its better than Batman V Superman where there's literally no build and they just fight at the first opportunity.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I guess I disagree too, since the Iron Man films set Stark up as the kind of guy who will tell the government to go fuck themselves when they ask for his super suit, yet here he's turning on a friend to turn someone over to the government.

Superman vs. Batman works better without a history between the two. A flying god man shows up and starts using cities as his wrestling ring and the distrustful Batman has issues with that. Heroes fighting when they first meet is a long-standing comic book trope (largely established by Marvel).

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I don't think i've seen that sentiment, at least here on this forum. As I mentioned in one of the other random DC threads where this has come up, everyone is entitled to their own opinion about a movie but the fact is that ALL of the Marvel movies so far has been critically received better then Man of Steel. It's not fanboyism or bias or giving passes to one company over another; nothing wrong with those that liked Man of Steel (which I do too), but let's not act like a lot of the negativity around the DCEU (I guess it's DC Extended Universe now) isn't pulled out of thin air.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Well, I can't account for what you have and have not seen any more than you can account for what I've seen or not seen. I have seen that sentiment in other places. Places far worse than dvdtalk.


First of all I never even said anything about Fanboys. Someone else brought that up. And it is giving passes when when all you hear about are issues with things that happen in DC films and practically the same thing happens in Marvel films and no one says a thing. I've seen this brought up in many places online. People are so much more willing to cut Marvel films some slack and that's fine. And that's fine... But let's not act like that isn't some bias against DC....

As I said before, with the exception of the Iron Man films, I love the recent Marvel Films as much as any other comic fan. So I'm not saying that Marvel hasn't had DESERVED success with good films. So for you and others to read it that way is a mistake.

Back on Topic...DC will be fine in spite of bias against what they do.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

What Marvel has done has never struck me as "desperate". MoS seemed desperate - so tonally off from previous DC movies that it barely felt like Superman. Batman vs. Superman was okay at first, but then Wonder Woman gets shoehorned in. Then Doomsday. Then whoever else shows up. They haven't earned any of this.

Since Marvel set the standard with a very clear plan that they committed to, DC is forced to play catchup. And to me, it FEELS forced. The flipside is that DC is doing really well with their TV shows. But Arrow didn't start with The Flash and The Atom and Hawkgirl from day 1. Each show has been allowed to grow which then leads to the next show and the next show. I feel like Legends of Tomorrow was pretty earned as we have some history with most of those characters at this point.

So it's not that they are incapable of pulling this off - it's just that they should look to the TV shows to help develop their movies. I probably would have made a Wonder Woman movie after MoS. There is enough "they should make a Black Widow movie" sentiment floating around that it would have been really neat if DC was the first to the table with a female-led superhero movie. Then Batman vs. Superman would feel a bit more organic.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

To be fair, the comics don't exactly give a compelling reason why Tony (and Reed and others) were selling out their friends either (and then they literally wiped away his mind to redeem him). In the context of the Civil War movie, though (and I have no idea what the actual plot points are), I can see the problems with just forgiving someone like the Winter Soldier and letting him go free.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Ok, fair enough. While I can understand the "desperate" label, I see it more as a cashing in on Comic Book Craze fueled largely by Marvel's momentum. It's a business...it's what businesses do.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

That's why I specifically referenced this forum. I have no doubt there are far bigger morons elsewhere.

I'm going to act like that isn't a bias against DC because I still don't believe there is one. What examples do you have of Marvel and DC doing the same thing that Marvel is given a pass on? I'm genuinely curious.

I didn't read it that way at all, not sure why you thought that based on my reply since I never mentioned anything like that.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Sorry what?

http://www.joblo.com/newsimages1/sui...-ass-steal.jpg

Re: Will DC fail?
 

We don't have the full plot to the film yet as to the change in heart of Tony to willingly give someone over to the government but as was pointed out he probably isn't happy with Steve for harboring a fugitive (Bucky).

Fair enough. I do think there are reasons to make the fight work and I'm sure that won't be the full plot of the film (although it is the damn title). I just wish they hadn't gone that route personally and just feel like it was a lazy way to get the two characters on screen together. It does feel like it was done out of desperation to try and get a film close to The Avengers put together without doing any of the build to get there. Especially the fact that they added in Wonder Woman on top of Batman and Superman.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

You can kinda say they already pressed the panic button when they blinked first and moved from the May release date they were gonna share with Civil War (granted, they didn't know what they were up against for the longest time) which was what, after Guardians or Winter Soldier came out?They saw what Marvel had and knew that even with the two greatest superheroes in their camp, they had no chance.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Oh, I don't know...

"Iron Man and Cap coming to blows? Doesn't make sense, but I'll roll with it because Marvel."

"Batman fighting Superman? So fucking stupid. WB has no fucking clue what they're doing."


;)

Re: Will DC fail?
 

But but...Marvel is so established!

Re: Will DC fail?
 

They are, which most certainly makes a difference here although I know you can't seem to see anything but DC hate :lol: Do you really think seeing these two characters on screen through 4 or 5 movies doesn't do anything in establishing the conflict in Civil War? :shrug:

I'm not sure if Corvin was half sarcastic given the winky, but Iron Man and Cap trading arguments throughout previous movies resulting in them coming to blows here makes sense to me and isn't just some excuse. I don't think i've seen anyone really say "makes no sense, but Marvel" or to that effect. I've see some question the motivation and stance of each hero as evidenced here, but then again a lot of folks actually hate the comic Civil War too so I don't think there's been a universal "pass" given.

As for DC, I actually don't have any issues with Batman and Supes fighting here. I know there's been some complaints that Batman should be smart enough to know Superman's intentions but honestly as far as complaints about the movie goes I figure that was far down the list and not as universal as the dislike for say... Snyder, Eisenberg as Lex, too many characters, etc.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I think anything with Batman and/or Superman will do well. But I doubt anything with just DC's other superheroes will perform well, given how the popularity of their characters drops a lot after those 2 heavyweights.

One thing I do think DC has over Marvel is their supervillains are better and more popular, so I think them making "Suicide Squad" shows that DC agrees with this view.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Really? I actually think Wonder Woman has a chance to do really well.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

But it's still here. even if it is in smaller doses based on what YOU have perceived.


I only need one

Avengers AoU - MASS DESTRUCTION

1. Hulk DESTROYS a city in a mad rage. Then Hulkbuster IM and Hulk both do considerable damage to the city as they fight it out. No way people didn't die. Yet no one was crying about how Iron Man should have lured Hulk into an empty field away from the city like they did for Man of Steel.

2. They raised and dropped a city... plenty of death and destruction. Again, no way anyone didn't get killed. I didn't hear anyone calling this "Death Porn" like they did for Man of Steel.

Yeah, like I said, Marvel films get a pass...


Just making sure you and others understand I'm not bashing Marvel films because i support ALL comics films..even when they suck like the Iron Man solo films.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Marvel isn't getting a pass. I'm really not sure where you're getting that from. As far as the events from Age of Ultron it seems clear that some of the fallout from those events is going to be addressed in Civil War.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Much like the wanton destruction in Man o' Steel is causing fallout in BvS. The danger is throwing too much in at once.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I have no idea what you mean by this. Looking back at the conversation I still maintain I don't really see anyone here call each other fanboys just for liking a DC movie at all like you said. That's all I was getting at.

I think a lot of that is how both sequences are framed. In the Avengers movies you frequently see Iron Man stop to save civilians or scan the building for people before he ultimately drops Hulk in to it. It also helps that the general Marvel tone is much lighter, and you still get those little Tony Stark quips. I haven't seen Man of Steel since buying it on Blu-ray (again, i'm someone that likes the movie), but I don't recall those civilian moments and with the sequence feeling much longer and having a wider range of destruction, I can see where the disconnect lies.

I can see why you see it as a pass, but I see it as each respective movie putting the audience in a different mindset and position leading up to and during each fight. A lot of it is simply the difference in tone between each property too.

For what it's worth, I never understood people whining about the death count thing myself and I'm sure I mentioned as much in the Man of Steel reviews thread too - just saying I can see a difference between the two.

That's cool, I never assumed you did. I've basically been arguing the same thing for everyone calling for DC hate and bias, you could just swap Iron Man with Man of Steel in your sentence. I feel like most people want to see these comic book movies succeed whether it be Marvel or DC.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Yeah in the fight between Hulkbuster and Hulk it at least appeared that Tony was trying to protect civilians. Same thing at the end of the film all the heroes were trying to help the civilians. In Man of Steel Superman was so caught up in the fight with Zod that he didn't seem to care about anyone else or the destruction they were causing. He made sure Lois was alright was about it.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Add in that Tony's main objective was to somehow contain Hulk.

His fight literally starts w/ a failed attempt at containment. Then leading into Stark trying to take him down. Next tries to fly him away. Hulk stops that. Stark throws out some mist, sleeping gas or whatever he was using. Hulk doesn't take it. Again... leads into a fight that Stark isn't really winning. Finally Stark just drops him while also taking out some structure beams to lessen the surrounding damage from his final attempt at taking down Hulk.

Tony NEVER not thinks about everybody else. He's limited in that fight based on where he is. He's trying to minimize the destruction and for the most part succeeds cuz his plan is to take Hulk out of the equation as fast as he can. The fight itself is rather short and for the damage did? It's actually pretty low. Stark was very smart in what he did.

<iframe width="660" height="415" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cOnn_ORXVeU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I like MoS to a point. But... Snyder can't direct emotions or logic too well. It has to look cool. He's all visual, no heart. Which is awkward cuz Supes is very much about heart. Whatever we do get is mostly sold from the solid cast he has and not by Snyder evoking depth through his imagery so much.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I'm not talking about a pass by script writers. I'm talking about harsh criticism, or a lack thereof by Fans and others.

I get it...you guys claim you don't see it here on dvdtalk. Fine. But I have seen plenty of this bias and pass giving in other forums/comic pages.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Well, again... I never said anything about people calling others Fanboys. Not sure where you got that.


Fair enough. But I still don't agree that the scenes were all that different between the two films. As far as tone, it was a hard tone for a hard film. We know DC has dark films and dark shit happens in dark films.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Well, I'm sure all that will be addressed in BvS. I suppose that will make it all "ok"....sigh.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Tony BUYS THE BUILDING he's about to destroy with the Hulk and the entire end sequence of Ultron is them trying to get every single person out of the city.

Where is the equivalent of that in MoS? Superman kills Zod to protect one group of people after participating in the deaths of literally thousands of people.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

Because of this exchange earlier where you said you get "called the same" in reference to fanboys.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

There was still mass death and destruction in both films. And understand that i have NO problem with death and destruction in either film. The fact that fans needs to see people being evacuated is silly to me. I would always understand that the city authorities or military is doing that. i don't need to see the hero doing it because in my mind he/she is already doing what they can to save a city.

Lesson learned DC writers/Superman...KILL THE BAD GUY EARLIER.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

The Hulk's rampage is probably one of the things that's going to start the "Civil War," and seems to be the reason Banner took off to parts unknown at the end of the film.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I don't know I just have a hard time viewing Superman as heroic during the final fight. I mean he's caught up in taking down Zod but in the midst of it causes a hell of a lot of damage to Metropolis and as we hear from the Batman V Superman trailer thousands of lives were lost. Its not so much about needing to see people evacuated its more about Superman being so wreckless. I am glad that is being addressed in Batman V Superman but I think that's a major issue I and others have with destruction in Man of Steel as opposed to Age of Ultron. The Avengers at least seemed like they were trying to protect people even if not everyone survived.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

That was literally the lesson I felt MoS was selling when I walked out of the theater. If only Superman had killed Zod as soon as he could, the innocents wouldn't have been threatened in that museum or whatever. Next time just snap his neck as soon as you can. Of course, in comics and in Injustice, Superman taking a life to prevent the loss of more lives usually leads to him feeling like he has to control everything and take over, because he knows best (or exile himself and cause a split personality).

Or just yell and skip to coming in and working at the Daily Planet.

But I'll still see the movie, eventually (and hey, Marvel doesn't get priority either, I JUST watched Winter Soldier this month...)

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I don't think DC fail. These comic book movies are still mostly trying to appeal to the mainstream crowds. I don't think the average consumer cares as much about destruction porn or a darker Superman as the folks posting on forums like this. Man of Steel was the #3 selling Blu Ray of 2013 and went on to make over 100 million dollars in home video sales. BvS will be huge and so will Suicide Squad. While there will be the occasional misstep(Green Lantern) WB will continue to make successful DC movies for years to come.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I think so, too. The novelty is going away, and there's only so many movies per year your average ticket buyer will watch.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

As much as I hate to say it, I also think that comic book movies are starting to wane a little with the public. And I think Disney is its own worst enemy here due to Star Wars. I think that series is now taking the spotlight away from Marvel. I would love to keep seeing DC and Marvel movies for years to come, but it's a house of cards (especially at this stage for DC/Warners). It just takes that one movie to really bomb to bring it all crashing down. Still hopeful they both keep it together for a while longer as I am still a huge fan.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I agree that a superhero crash is bound to happen, but I don't think quite yet. I think people are anxious to see DC's other heroes not named Batman and Superman.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I don't expect a significant drop in Superhero movie interest; everyone seemed to think that in the mid 2000's too and it only came back bigger. Granted there's a LOT more movies coming out, but I the public seems more invested now then ever and we're coming off a couple lesser properties that were successful in Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. I think the audience has really taken to the bigger universe thing. I think it will take a couple bombs to really make an impact, and even then I expect Avengers and Justice League to still be huge releases.

Re: Will DC fail?
 

I hear you. We will agree to disagree. I never felt Superman was the one destroying the buildings...it was Zod, it was Faora, it was the big Kryptonian who threw the train...Superman was doing his best to take down these villains bent on destruction.