RoboDad

That sounds too much like a typical X-Men plot device to me.

Solid Snake

But it's true isn't it? If a being like Supes existed. You bet your ass we'd try to find a way to take him down were he to turn on us. That's basic human logic on working w/ the unknown.

Dr. DVD

Let me throw in my .02 . The Superman theme from the 78 film is iconic, but even it was influenced heavily by the theme to the TV show. The animated series theme also seemed influenced by both, so I think it would be safe to assume that this new theme will "share DNA" with the previous ones, to use the Prometheus phrase. I think the best way to use it would be to take an approach like they did in the most recent Star Trek, where you hear a totally original theme for the whole movie, but towards the end, play the original so everyone is assured it's still the same thing with which they are familiar.


The only Batman theme I would say is iconic is the one from the 60s TV show, and there is no way they will ever play that in Dark Knight Rises.

RoboDad

I suppose so, but it doesn't really appeal to me on any level. Imagine an Indiana Jones movie where, instead of traveling around the world in search of rare artifacts, he was on trial for desecrating some sacred ground. It might be more realistic, but it isn't what I want out of an Indiana Jones movie.

There is enough reality in reality for my life. In a Superman movie I want adventure and Superman fighting villains.

RocShemp

You should add the Fleischer theme to the list of influences to the '78 score.

RoboDad

That's a really good point that I hadn't considered before. I would be very happy with a "shared DNA" theme that has its own identity, but also can be recognized as paying homage to what went before.

And, although I know some people aren't big fans of his work, I have always liked Zimmer. In some ways, he has become this generation's John Williams. No, I don't consider them equals, but Zimmer has composed some reasonably iconic themes over the past ten years or so. So, I have hope that the score will be both pleasing to long-time fans, and yet unique enough to satisfy younger fans.

Superboy

Actually, I'd expect the world to be much more like Kingdom Come, where there's an entire religion built around Superman, the world is absolutely balls-to-the-walls in love with him but cannot accept his value system, and he knows that his only place in humanity is not to put himself above others, but to bring everyone to his level. That's how he's work in the real world.

The government wouldn't try to stop him because the government can't stop him. The government can't stop terrorists, drug cartels, and victimless crimes; what on Earth makes you think they can stop an invincible super-powered being? just because he has a weakness? humans have a weakness too: we die very easily. And it's not he constitution that's stopping us from solving human affairs; it's that humans are so limited. And in the face of a super human being, we would crumble utterly.

Paul_SD

It's not a plot device- it's an institutional analysis. If you are treating this as speculative sci-fi, you can't escape the fact that many institions would regard a powerful non human with great suspicion- including 'good' governments like ours, as well as many popular organized religions since he could easily be mistaken for a messiah or prophet. Some people probably would build a religion around him, which would then be used by more established religions (business competitors) as proof of his destructive (satanic) influence on society.

While none of this need be the focus of the plot- it should certainly inform the events in the film. Otherwise the material will be shallow and superficial. Maybe more fun, but not more 'intelligent' or thoughtful.

Paul_SD

Why would the world be in love with him? The majority would likley follow the cues of the authorities they already trust (their governments, their religious leaders, etc) The individuals within these instituions inclined to accept him , by the nature of his deeds alone, would/could be seen as progressives in this new reality- embracing a future with people like this in it changing the dynamic of humankind. Of course this would create a reaction of people who see this new future as scary and unrelateable and so new Conservatives would spring up. For everyone that loved him (for doing a grand good deed in view of cameras and witnesses) a larger percent would view the same situation with cynicism (what are his real motives...no one is that good who doesn't want something) and maybe even jealousy (no fair he's that powerful...he isn't even human).

While all this sounds supremely negative, this also presents the opportunity to display the kind of internal character and personality traits that would show him as a truly heroic, inspiring, and super Man. His grace and majestic response to all this negativity could be one of his most impressive abilities in the film.

Solid Snake

Ah...but here you go into something else. IJ is all about tone, style, narrative structure, etc. He's centered in his own world. You do that to him and it's not IJ anymore.

You can do that to Superman though cuz we've had sooooooo many adaptations and interpretations of him that it's free game.

Dr. DVD

This is also why Superman has/will be portrayed by different actors over time, but IJ will ALWAYS be Harrison Ford. Superman was born of the comic book medium, whereas Jones the character was created expressly for movies. I notice that franchise characters who come from other mediums initially (comic book characters, James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, Jack Ryan) find people more open to someone else portraying the character than one that originated in a movie. Will anyone but Bruce Willis and Harrison Ford be accepted as John McClane and Indiana Jones/Han Solo? Doubt it .

EDIT: I know Die Hard was a book, but no one really knew of it until the movie, and there is no series of John McClane in book form.

Mike86

I'd say the Danny Elfman Batman theme from Batman/Batman Returns or the Shirley Walker theme from Batman: The Animated Series are more iconic than the Adam West Batman theme personally. The Adam West theme even though I love it really wasn't anything that special, basically just the same chord repeated over and over with sound effects added in.

RocShemp

I think Shirley Walker's theme from Batman: Mask of the Phantasm is better than anything she did on the show (and I loved her work on the show).

Solid Snake

No way Elfman's is more iconic. His theme isn't nowhere near the level of being such a huge beast in pop culture as the Adam West Batman theme. It's a better theme for sure..but it's nowhere near as known as show's theme.

The Valeyard

If you asked any random person to belt out a Batman theme (without implying a specific one), they would probably start chanting "Na Na Na Na Na Na BATMAN!"

It's definitely more iconic than Elfman's theme.

Mike86

I was really speaking more for myself but I suppose people probably remember the West theme more for how cheesy it was and it kind of sticks in your head. When I think Batman themes I definitely think the Elfman theme more though and the Walker theme which seems inspired by the Elfman theme.

Well yeah, but obviously people are going to more easily remember something with lyrics (no matter how cheesy and simplistic) than to think of humming a theme song.

Solid Snake

even w/o the lyrics...it's got a catchy as fuck tune.

Mike86

Yeah, I'm just saying though. People tend to remember stuff with lyrics more than actual theme songs I'd say.

Nick Martin

more like annoying as fuck tune.

I don't know why a theme being recognizable to the general public matters to anyone here, as if it somehow validates or takes away from whether it's a good piece of music that is representative of the character.

DonnachaOne

If that's what you take away from the discussion, maybe discussing music isn't for you.

Nick Martin

Don't assume you know what I'm taking away from this discussion.

I'll tell you what I'm taking away from it:

A pointless comparison between the Elfman Batman theme and the Williams Superman theme, and how the Elfman theme is nowhere near as popular.

When people say popular here, what's really being said is what's better than the other. Asking random crowds on the street what's more recognizable is a useless assumption to make unless you all get your video cameras out and actually do it but even then, what does it prove?

I don't give a shit about how much the Superman theme has entered the public consciousness, because I've never once seen an example of it, just as I've never seen an example of the Batman theme - aside from that 60's show - in that same public light.

Perhaps what should really be at the heart of the matter, is how successful they are at representing what they were written for. THAT is a far more interesting musical discussion than how well some schmuck on the street can hum a few notes.

DonnachaOne

I'm not assuming, I'm only commenting on what you've been saying. From what I've read of you recently, you tend to be dismissive of a subject when it doesn't matter to you personally, declining to see why it should matter to anyone. I appreciate that you went into more detail with your thoughts, though.

Shannon Nutt

I have no problem saying Williams' Superman theme is worlds' better than Elfman's Batman theme.

Solid Snake

In that case it would be. It...just is.

When saying it's popular doesn't mean it's better. Popular don't equate to quality all the time.

Is the West Batman theme better than the Elfman theme? No. You'd have to back it up for me to think otherwise. Is it more popular than the Elfman. No fucking doubt about that.

Mike86

I said it was more iconic to me personally. I never said I was speaking for everyone just throwing in my thoughts on it. The Adam West theme is probably more known to a broader audience, but it really only works with that version of Batman. The Elfman theme could be substituted in to other versions of Batman and still work (with some tweaks possibly but the overall score works). Just my opinion on it.