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-   -   Temple of Doom or Last Crusade (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk/501246-temple-doom-last-crusade.html)

FRwL 05-21-07 07:15 PM

Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 
Temple for me.

The opening of Crusade had some guy who was not Ford, while Temple had Indy starting the movie as Humphrey Bogart meets James Bond and then the action never let up. Crusade wasn't horrible, but it tried to be too much like Raiders, and it makes jokes out of Brody and Sallah turning them into caricatures of the dignified men they were originally, at least Temple's humor was sarcasm, Crusade's felt forced. Also that hokey old knight at the end... blah, the whole thing felt too preachy. Temple is more tightly constructed compared to the meandering and tired Crusade. Though the screentime between Connery and Ford was good, i miss the more cynical Indy of the 1st two, Temple feels the most like the pulp serials they based it off. It has too many good scenes and that one scene where Indy knocks out the Thuggee and they show him standing there as the children's savior, the mine carts or bridge scene.

Greg MacGuffin 05-21-07 07:31 PM

Temple, definitely.

Crusade is fine, but I don't think it holds up as well. The last time I watched it, I found Connery to be kind of annoying.

GoldenJCJ 05-21-07 07:31 PM

I'm going for Last Crusade. Indy vs. Nazis beats Indy vs. Child Slave runners any day.

Temple of Doom:
pluses -
- Bridge fight
- Short Round
- Final Scene where Indy returns to the village
Spoiler:
with children close behind

negatives-
- Willie
- dinner scene
- ripping out of still beating heart
- No Nazis

Last Crusade:
Pluses-
- Nazis :up:
- revealing Indy's namesake and reason for fear of snakes
- Blimp ride and subsequent bi-plane ride
- Tank fight
- kept with religious artifact

Negatives-
- old knight at the end
- a bit too slapsticky in places
- Brody acts like a boob

jeffkjoe 05-21-07 07:37 PM

I like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom more, by far.

Non-stop action.




I wonder how Indiana Jones and the City of Gods will stack up.

matome 05-21-07 07:42 PM

Last Crusade by far for me, though Temple gets points for it's kick ass arcade game that was better than the movie.

Apone 05-21-07 07:48 PM

Hmm...

The Temple of Doom
-Awesome bolt-action rifles.
-Awesome SFX.

The Last Crusade
-A Potato Masher and Mauser rifle combo' action.
-The pistol shot.

Erm... I think I will go with ToD because it had better SFX and more action.

JumpCutz 05-21-07 08:03 PM

Temple

I didn't care too much for 'The Last Crusade'.

Parcher 05-21-07 08:51 PM

Crusade, by a small margin.

Both VERY good movies!!!! Hard to pick :)

Connery rocks!

Lokimok 05-21-07 08:56 PM


Originally Posted by FRwL
and it makes jokes out of Brody and Sallah turning them into caricatures of the dignified men they were originally, at least Temple's humor was sarcasm, Crusade's felt forced.

I think this is right on. Brody is a completely different character. & I'll take it further & say they did the same thing to Indiana Jones. I don't know what it is about Movie #3. You would think that the actors would know their characters by then & be more comfortable, but they almost always end up turning them into cartoons.

Raiders is near perfect. It's the only Speilberg movie that I start-to-finish love.

Temple of Doom's got some problems, but I saw it young enough that I can sort of overlook them - & there's enough good stuff to make it worthwhile. I admit I've shut it off many times right after the raft down a hill scene...

Last Crusade is the only one I didn't see in a theater. When I did finally see it, it was worse than I expected. I don't think I liked a single thing about it. Anything that might've been cool, was a retread. I've never been a Bond fan & had no love for Connery, but when I heard he was cast, I was expecting a wilder character that Indy would barely be able to keep up. I don't know if that would've worked. It might've been just as lame as what we got: C-3PO. All humor is forced & unfunny. The direction seems to be: Mug, mug, mug. The father-son relationship doesn't work & Harrison's little boy act is embarrassing. As bad as or worse than Regarding Henry.

The FX in both sequels seem much worse than Raiders.

Anyone who likes Temple of Doom should check out Gunga Din sometime. I caught part of it recently & it felt very familiar.

RoboDad 05-21-07 09:14 PM

If Temple would have avoided the silly heart-ripping, then I probably would have voted for it. But that one element ruined the movie so much for me that it is easily my least favorite of the trilogy.

Rogue588 05-21-07 09:22 PM


Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ
Temple of Doom:
pluses -
- Bridge fight
- Short Round
- Final Scene where Indy returns to the village
Spoiler:
with children close behind

You the neglected to mention Indy's fight in the mine right after he says "Right. ALL OF US." Combined with Williams' awesome score, this is always one high point of the flick for me.

Mercury&Solace 05-21-07 09:26 PM

Crusade, but by a small margin.


Crusade wasn't horrible, but it tried to be too much like Raiders, and it makes jokes out of Brody and Sallah turning them into caricatures of the dignified men they were originally, at least Temple's humor was sarcasm, Crusade's felt forced.
This is one of the main reasons I didn't like Crusade as much as I should have. Making jokes of Sallah and Brody. The OP summed it up perfectly. They turned Sallah into a bumbling fool. I didn't like that in the movie other than that, all is good. I like the boat scene in Venice, the rats, the hot blonde Nazi girl :drool: the blimp ride and tanks in the desert. Though I agree with other posters the knight at the end was hokey.

ToD-Willie was annoying as hell, she can't even touch Marion. I liked Short Round and the thugges. The bridge scene kicked ass, but the movie slowed down a bit in the middle for me. The dinner scene was limp, but mine car fight/chase was cool.

Matt 05-21-07 09:30 PM

Temple of Doom. At least it tried to do something different. Crusade was just a shameless retread of the original.

Raiders bests both of them by a mile, though.

Mondo Kane 05-21-07 09:52 PM

Voted for Temple. Best-paced adventure of the trilogy.

jfoobar 05-21-07 10:05 PM

Crusade. Temple is BY FAR the weakest of the three. Connery annoying? Perhaps, but not half as annoying as Kate Capshaw's character in Temple. It also helps that Crusade as the lovely Alison Doody in it:

http://www.beyondhollywood.com/galle...on-doody-0.jpg

To be honest, I am not a huge fan of either sequel. While I own the boxed set, I only ever rewatch the original.

TheMadMonk 05-21-07 10:08 PM

Holy Grail > Rocks with scratches on them.

EdTheRipper 05-21-07 10:10 PM

Last Crusade.

PopcornTreeCt 05-21-07 10:22 PM

Last Crusade doesn't suck as much as Temple. --That's my assessment.

Jackskeleton 05-21-07 10:45 PM

I watched Temple of doom a lot more when I was a kid but hands down to Last Crusade

cranberries fan 05-21-07 11:15 PM

I love them both to much to pick one over the other,but if I had to pick it would be Crusade and John's score are top form for both.

Boondock Saint 05-21-07 11:19 PM

Last Crusade. My favorite. My friends and I know almost every line from this movie. But I love'em all.

bunkaroo 05-21-07 11:25 PM

ToD is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, and it's still better than 99% of the crap action films turned out by Hollywood. Still Kate Capshaw is pretty frickin' annoying.

LC is just a much stronger film, and comes close to recapturing the magic of the first.

GoldenJCJ 05-21-07 11:26 PM


Originally Posted by Rogue588
You the neglected to mention Indy's fight in the mine right after he says "Right. ALL OF US." Combined with Williams' awesome score, this is always one high point of the flick for me.

Yeah. I also forgot to mention Indy's "Water, water, water!, water!..." line. Classic!

mndtrp 05-22-07 04:01 AM

That whiney, annoying bitch ruined Temple of Doom for me. Simply because of her, that is my least favorite of the three.

Mr. Cinema 05-22-07 07:01 AM

Temple of Doom for me.

Geofferson 05-22-07 07:59 AM

Last Crusade

Temple was too dark (Lucas acknowledges that he was in a bad place in his personal life (was going through a divorce) when he wrote the screenplay)

starman9000 05-22-07 08:03 AM

Last Crusade....it's like a bad penny, it always turns up.

Parcher 05-22-07 08:05 AM

I think the chemistry between Ford and Connery is great in Crusade..?

matome 05-22-07 08:24 AM

^same here

Cosmic Bus 05-22-07 08:30 AM

Definitely going with Temple. Hell, I'd still choose Temple of Doom if Raiders were on the list, too. :)

Dr. Henry Jones, Jr. 05-22-07 08:33 AM

Crusade.. not even close

Michael Corvin 05-22-07 08:55 AM


Originally Posted by TheMadMonk
Holy Grail > Rocks with scratches on them.

:clap:

What's Indy searching for in Temple? Why? Who cares? It's hard to have an emotional attachment to the character when you don't really care about his motivations and what is going on.

Crusade by a mile.

Doughboy 05-22-07 08:55 AM

Temple by far. And don't get me wrong, I love Crusade in spite of its many flaws(kinda like how I feel about Return of the Jedi).

But Williams' score is one of his best, Short Round is a great sidekick, I love the dark tone of the film(even if Spielberg and Lucas seem ashamed of it now), Mola Ram is the series' best villain, and the last 30 minutes are a nonstop rollercoaster ride(at times literally).

Hell, I even like the Willie Scott character. I'm sick of people bitching about her not being like Marion. No kidding, folks! She's supposed to be the exact opposite of Marion. That's the whole point. At least she had a personality which is more than I can say for the bland Jenny Flex....errrr, Elsa Schnieder in Crusade.

My only real complaint with Temple of Doom is that it's set a year before Raiders. Yet in Raiders, Indy tells Marcus Brody that he doesn't believe in magic or hocus pocus. Funny considering a year earlier, he saw a dude get his heart ripped out while still alive and ended up being possessed by an evil spirit after drinking blood. Of course this wouldn't be the last time Lucas made a prequel that contradicted its predecessor.;)

Goldblum 05-22-07 09:29 AM

Crusade for me. Kate Capshaw ruined ToD. Nevertheless, I liked Crusade better anyway. Felt more epic than ToD and fewer slow spots.

dick_grayson 05-22-07 09:40 AM

Last Crusade is my fav. overall. I could watch that just about any time.



By the way, I remember back in the days of laserdisks I was at a suncoast or someplace and noticed the laserdisk for Last Crusade and there's a shot on the back of Indy (when he's tied to the chair with his father) and there's a giant turantula on his chest. I don't remember seeing this in the making of or supplemental stuff from the dvd. Anyone have the laserdisk or know what I'm talking about?

Doughboy 05-22-07 10:14 AM


Originally Posted by dick_grayson
Last Crusade is my fav. overall. I could watch that just about any time.



By the way, I remember back in the days of laserdisks I was at a suncoast or someplace and noticed the laserdisk for Last Crusade and there's a shot on the back of Indy (when he's tied to the chair with his father) and there's a giant turantula on his chest. I don't remember seeing this in the making of or supplemental stuff from the dvd. Anyone have the laserdisk or know what I'm talking about?

I have all 3 Indy flicks on LD. I know what pic you're talking about. I always assumed it was from Raiders when Indy and Sapito had the spiders crawling over them, but now that I think about it, Indy did look a lot older in that pic. Maybe it's from a deleted scene.

Daytripper 05-22-07 10:39 AM

Wow! Surprised by all the love for "Doom". I know it made a shit load of money, but I've seen nothing but people bashing it online up until now. Personally, I hated it. Loved "Crusade" though.

slop101 05-22-07 11:04 AM

I agree with the article below -

The argument in favor of Temple of Doom:


Most people hate it. I sort of love it. In fact, if I feel like spinning an Indy movie in the background in the years to come, I can pretty much guarantee that it will be the last 40 minutes of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Mind you, I'll be the first to admit that Temple of Doom has deeply embedded problems, and that there are popular reasons for disliking it — even hating it. The dialogue is ham-fisted. (I invariably cringe during the "What are you — a lion tamer?"/"I'm allowing you to tag along" exchange. "A lion." "Allowing." A homophone! I get it!) It's surprisingly brutal in the middle. In women's-lib terms, Kate Capshaw's scream-queen Willie Scott is such a step backward from Marion Ravenwood that I'm mildly surprised NOW didn't picket the screenings. (The future Mrs. Spielberg, God bless her, got handed a terribly written role — Willie's the shrieking Jar-Jar of the Indiana Jones series.) And let's not even get into the film's retro-colonialist overtones (which I find sort of perversely funny, but still). And the film is so different from its predecessor — confined largely to one locale, not as sophisticated or quest-driven, and very nearly Satanic in its depictions of evil — that it really couldn't help but let viewers down.

Still, despite all that, I managed to arrived at the following list of reasons to love the flick:

1. That unimpeachably awesome opening fight over the diamond and antidote, which contains tributes to classic musicals and Hitchcock and just absolutely rocks the house;

2. Ke Huy Kwan as Short Round, who — despite being handed cute-kid dialogue that includes the lines "Hold onto your potatoes!" and "You call him Doctah Jones, DOLL!" — is quite possibly the most likeable and least obtrusive child sidekick in movie history. Check out the wonderful, genuinely warm give-and-take between Kwan and Ford as they play poker or exchange hats;

3. That "Nice try, Lao Che!" visual gag;

4. Harrison Ford's terrific performance — arguably his best as Jones. I love how Indy stars out as a total greedy asshole, with strong shades of Bogart in Treasure of Sierra Madre, and how there's a distinct character arc as he evolves into a Pied-Piper/holy avenger;

5. The movie's look — again, the best in the series — with its striking wide-angle close ups of Indy's face and strong use of reds and shadows. Temple of Doom is a manual on how to use color in film, no joke. This movie contains Spielberg's busiest frames, and it's all beautiful. It's a pornography of cinematography.

6. John Williams' score, which is among his very best — expanding richly on the original and adding wonderful themes for Short Round and the slave children;

7. Vampire bats! Severed thumbs!

8. The matte paintings of Pankot Palace, which are among the best matte paintings ever;

9. The sexy, playful, totally '80s, beautifully edited cat-and-mouse sequence where way-horny Indy and Willie are trying to out-wait each other, only to have the flirtation interrupted by a Thuggee assassin. (How can you not love the way that thug steps out of that wall mural?);

10. The super-icky, super-taut bug-tunnel and death-trap set piece, which is a perfect transition between the palace and the Temple of Doom and which very nearly kicks the ass of the Well of Souls sequence (it certainly makes your skin crawl more) and features that great closing gag where Indy grabs his hat as the door's closing;

11. The way the movie shifts so abruptly into scenes of human sacrifice and child cruelty. I'm sorry, I just love what a cinema bomb Spielberg and Lucas drop here: Yes, the horror's laid on a bit thick, but come on — how totally cathartic are those last 40 minutes as a result, when Indy snaps out of the Black Sleep of Kali and dishes out the hurt to faceless Thuggee goons?

12. That little 1940s tip of the hat Indy gives to that cobra statue as he's stealing the stones — a perfect Bogart moment;

13. Amrish Puri as Mola Ram — by far the scariest and most depraved villain in the series. He's mindlessly scary like Orcs are scary, you know? He looks like what Abe Vigoda would look like if he were a sadistic Indian child molester;

14. The way Indiana Jones doesn't just look drugged when he's in the Black Sleep of Kali, but instead looks like he's really into all the sadism and blood, like he's actually tapped into some dark part of his personality that was there all along;

15. And, best of all, the movie's final 40 minutes, which are inventive and cathartic and full of righteous fury and pain and thrilling action — it's Lucas and Spielberg working out all their action-geek demons without apology, and God bless 'em for it. I mean, has any movie ever piled one action sequence on top of the next so successfully? That voodoo conveyor-belt fight followed by the mine-car chase followed by the water tunnel followed by the dual-swordsman tango followed by the rope-bridge blowout? With all kinds of semi-perverse shots like the one where both Indy and Short Round are beating the crap out of age-appropriate foes?

Really. The movie's aged well. Better than you might think. Give it a second chance. It's total geek crack.
The argument against Last Crusade:


Now, now. I wouldn't dare to blanket-slag Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade; in fact, I actually softened on it quite a bit after I turned 30, which I'm sure should disturb me but doesn't.

Certainly, there's some wonderful chemistry between Ford and Sean Connery, who plays dotty, arrogant Dr. Jones paterfamilias (a casting coup, that). And River Phoenix does an uncanny and quite funny Harrison Ford impression, glaring and smirking as young Indiana Jones (who, apparently, acquired his whip, hat, fear of snakes and chin scar in a single afternoon in 1912). And kudos to the late Jeffrey Boam for writing some lively, character-driven, funny dialogue; it comes as a relief after the spoken-word atrocities wrought by Katz and Huyck. And that largely improvised action sequence with the WWI tank? Delicious. (Well, mostly delicious; see below.)

But, all that said: Despite its clearly being Spielberg's favorite and most personal film in the series — unresolved Daddy issues and all — Last Crusade commits two filmic sins I won't readily forgive:

1. It resorts to mockery. It's one thing when a sequel tweaks its characters a little — but Last Crusade revels in making fools of its protagonists, to the degree that it takes me out of the movie and undermines any sense of danger the film may hold. While I generally enjoy the Oedipal dynamic between Papa and Junior Jones, there's just one too many moments for my taste where Henry makes Indiana look like a total jackass. And don't even get me started about what they did to Marcus Brody: In Raiders, Brody is an obvious mentor to Indy and no minor badass himself; as he says, he's only five years too old to have undertaken the quest for the Ark himself. But in Last Crusade, Brody's a doddering buffoon, a drunk with Alzheimer's, a man who gets lost in his own museum. Watch how his comedy "bits" with Sean Connery almost derail any tension to be had in the desert battle with the tank. It's almost unforgivable. And Sallah, so resourceful and charming and filled with music in the first film, is kind of a doofus here, stealing camels for his relatives and otherwise serving as wacky-Arab comic relief.

2. The movie contains very few actual thrills. In Raiders, Indiana Jones took on sadists, Nazis and a fierce competitor (not to mention a pissed-off ex-girlfriend). In Temple of Doom, he fell into a subterranean hell and took on the very minions of Kali. In Last Crusade, he takes on a bumbling group of idiots — and, as a result, very little of the film's action leads me to believe that Indiana Jones is in any real danger. Seriously. Who are our bad guys here? Guys in fezzes? A Nazi commander out of a Mel Brooks movie? And, dear Lord, I very nearly forget that Julian Glover is even in the damned thing, and he plays the bad guy who gets the supernatural-disintegration treatment! Am I really supposed to consider this British-channeling-American slice of Wonder Bread a threat? Get back in your AT-AT, General Veers!
http://dvdjournal.com/reviews/a/adve...anajones.shtml

Giles 05-22-07 11:08 AM


Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ
I'm going for Last Crusade. Indy vs. Nazis beats Indy vs. Child Slave runners any day.

Temple of Doom:
pluses -
- Bridge fight
- Short Round
- Final Scene where Indy returns to the village
Spoiler:
with children close behind

negatives-
- Willie
- dinner scene
- ripping out of still beating heart
- No Nazis

Last Crusade:
Pluses-
- Nazis :up:
- revealing Indy's namesake and reason for fear of snakes
- Blimp ride and subsequent bi-plane ride
- Tank fight
- kept with religious artifact

Negatives-
- old knight at the end
- a bit too slapsticky in places
- Brody acts like a boob

I liked that scene... and then when he's lowered into the lava pit and is engulfed by the fire several times as he squirms and screams - super gnarly!

toddly6666 05-22-07 03:03 PM

I like Temple of Doom the most, but Crusade is good too. There are just too many more memorable lines in Temple than in Crusade. I like Crusade a lot too because I haven't watched it as many times as Raiders and Temple. Everytime I re-watch Crusade, I find something new in it to enjoy.

But out of all three, I liked how Temple of Doom was most realistic - I'll believe a voodoo-type cult with a leader that can rip out a heart still beating, than Raider's ghosts or Crusade's old knight. The only thing I truly didn't believe possible was the air-raft jump out of the airplane (I wish it was possible though).


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