Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

That's the point I tried to make when they were merely tinkering with the idea of Crystal Skull , but the fanboys on here kept clamoring for more, despite GL's track record beforehand.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

That's a complete strawman. I didn't say I had a problem with the village being portrayed as impoverished. What I object to is the way the film infantilizes the Indians, portraying them as lacking in agency and needing the mighty-whitey to save them.

Well, except for the cartoonishly evil villains who are responsible for the drought. Because the problems faced by the Indians during the colonial period were brought about by other, evil Indians, not by the British who had ruined a land that had been the world's leading economic power prior to their arrival.

Lend a hand =/= save them because they're completely incapable of handling their own problems.

Bzzzt. Sorry, but thanks for playing. Johnny, tell him what he's won.

You do know the Indian government flat-out refused to let Spielberg film in the country because they considered the script racist? If that's not enough, here's an article from Film Journal by Kaizaad Navroze Kotwal, "an Indian from India".

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

Yeah the history of Indians finding the film racist is lengthy but I don't think any of the filmmakers had any ill intent. The writers (the Hyuk's) wrote the film after traveling in India and falling in love with the country. If anything the film suffers from its makers being the infantile ones. Too easily bamboozled by foreign languages, cultures, and eastern mysticism. It's an "aging hippies went to India, found inner 'something', and this stupid script is what they have to show for it" movies. It's like the Beatles going to India and suddenly they wear Nehru jackets and play the Sitar; in hindsight it's kind of embarrassing.

Anyway, I've always said that Temple of Doom is the greatest example of Spielberg’s directorial ability, because he rises so far above the shitty material. The script is awful, filled with paternalistic bullshit, unnecessary side-kicks and comic relief. But time and time again Spielberg keeps topping himself. A really gross dinner, bugs, crushing spike rooms, heart-ripping, voodoo spells, out of control mine cars, broken rope bridges, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. And all of that stuff could have been very different. What’s on the page is nothing near as detailed as the suspense he wrings from the bug scene or the horror he conjures in the heart-ripping scene. It's a film that was "made" in the story boards not in the writing.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

Let me also add that ToD was Spielberg and GL's follow up to E.T. and Return of the Jedi respectively. I have to admire them for taking their audiences down such a dark path after making what many consider very family friendly movies. GL has admitted he wanted ToD the way he did due to his divorce, but maybe that proves frustration can enable greatness, if you're a fan of ToD.

I also have to say that Indy's intros in the first two are far superior to how he is done in that latter ones. Temple opens with us learning through his talk with the crime boss that he is not someone you want to cross , hence the son's injured hand and "I spared his life" line. And , who can forget his classic introduction in Raiders? Compare that to TLC where he's first seen as an adult getting punched and then in KotCS where he's being dragged out of the trunk of a car.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

I never got the impression that the villagers in the film were supposed by racially inferior, nor did I think that the village was supposed to represent all of India.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

Probably not, which is the problem. Racism isn't just hating on people of a different color. It's a way of viewing the world, and when a person makes a statement that reflects a racist worldview, they need to be called on it so they can reconsider their way of thinking. And to Spielberg's credit, he's aware of what's wrong with the film and has distanced himself from it. Lucas on the other hand went on to this:

http://www.starwars-holonet.com/holo...ray_nute_1.jpg

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

Spielberg said TOD was: ""I wasn't happy with Temple of Doom at all. It was too dark, too subterranean, and much too horrific. I thought it out-poltered Poltergeist. "

Nothing about racism of offensive stereotypes. But this is only one quote from wikipedia.

Do you think that I am Legend was racist?

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

I think people are looking too deeply into an Indian Jones movie. You have an archaeologist who kicks ass and is on par with James Bond looking for old relics, I think we should all watch these movies with a big grain of salt. ;)

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

A few comparisons, sorry if it's been done before.

Sidekick
Temple - Short Round
Crusade - Professor Henry Jones Sr.

WINNER: Crusade - Sean EM-EFFING Connery


Ick Factor
Temple - Bugs
Crusade - Rats

WINNER: Temple - Yucky.


Villain
Temple - Mola Ram
Crusade - Walter Donovan

WINNER: Temple - "Mola Ram, prepare to meet Kali......IN HELL!"


Henchmen
Temple - Thuggees
Crusade - Nazis

WINNER: Crusade - Indy kicking Nazi ass is awesome.


Goal
Temple - Sankara stones
Crusade - Holy Grail

WINNER: Crusade - Uh..JESUS drank from it.


Main chick
Temple - Willie Scott - Whiny & shrill nightclub singer
Crusade - Dr. Elsa Schneider - Cold-blooded Nazi hoo-er.

WINNER: Crusade - Angry evil sex!


Villain Death
Temple - Off a cliff, into the waiting mouths of crocodiles
Crusade - Drinking some bad shit, getting old real quick.

WINNER: Temple - He screamed all the way down.


Final task
Temple - Sweet mine car chase, tunnel flooding, and rickety-ass suspension bridge.
Crusade - Biblical fakakta obstacle course

WINNER: Temple - Great sequence


Video Game
WINNER: Temple - One of the greatest arcade games EVAH. Goddamn flaming hearts though.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

I watched ToD for the first time when I was ten years old on VHS, and it was the first major movie I ever bought. I daresay it might be the single movie I have seen more than any other in existence save for one of the original Star Wars.
Whenever I watch it now, I put myself into the same frame of mind I had back then (what you mentioned). You know what? It's still a fun time!

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

Brayzie is right. While Spileberg has distanced himself from the film he has never indicated it is because of any perceived racism but rather because it is too dark and mean.

Temple of Doom is very "of its time" and by that I don't mean the 1930's I mean the early 1980's. Rather than the film being racist, it is actually paternalistic and couched in the feeling of the time which was very "Concert For Bangladesh", famine in Ethiopia, "We Are The World". Sugar coated pop-philanthropy for the third world.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

In the bonus disc for the original Indy boxset, he discusses the criticism the film received and how he didn't become aware of the problems until afterwards.

Paternalism is a form of racism. That's why Song of the South still receives criticism even though it's set after the Civil War.

As for being of its time, remember this is the same era that gave us this:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/K6TLYwelOPk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

But that's still not the same as distancing himself from the film because of the perceived racist problems. He's mentioned why he doesn't like the film. Does he mention in the extras that he doesn't like the film because he was being ignorant and insensitive?

Couldln't Raidres be considered just as racially offensive to non-whites? I don't want racism in Indiana Jones, but then again, I think it goes against the nature of the pulp source material they're trying to emulate to be overly PC.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

Song of the South still receives criticism because people are fucking morons.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

This.

And this. By the academic PC standards they should just stop making all movies because somehow every character is supposed to "stand for" a universal statement about all people of that gender/ethnicity/sexuality. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes a macguffin is just an orange light bulb in a briefcase.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

I went for Last Crusade....however, i love the opening sequence from ToD in Club Obi-Wan. Really great.

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

One problem with that scene. Lao Che poisoned Indy to get the diamond back, but was going to double cross him and let him die anyway. So why would Lao Che bring the real antidote?

Re: Temple of Doom or Last Crusade
 

That made no sense, but considering the series is a homage to the films and serials of that era, I can suspend disbelief and assume that that's just how villains/criminals were back then.

When this thread first popped up, I watched Temple of Doom again, and while enjoyable, it wasn't quite as good as I remembered. Maybe The Last Crusade was the better sequel after all.

I just watched The Last Crusade.
Holy crap, it was a chore to get through.
The danger and excitement was gone, and it felt like Indy and father were some bumbling fools, going from one scene to the next.
Short Round is definitely the better sidekick than Henry Jones Sr.
Connery was great in the role, but it was a little too much comedy for me.

The sense of the exotic was missing too. Raiders is mostly in Egypt, Temple in India. But The Last Crusade seems to spend a lot of time in Venice and Germany which was pretty dull in comparison.