msblue

oh.. ok, so the whole comic and movie difference thing.. juggernaut is not a mutant in the comics..

ok, thanks!

kcbrett5

Its a completely different argument in this case because you are talking about a comic book series that gets reinvented every time a new writer takes over. They have killed off characters and brought them back with new writers and changed who is in charge and even changed the origins and relationships of some characters to others. So if you tell the X-men exactly like the comics, which comics do you use? They are all different.

I think its far better to take the characters and invent new stories for them. Which they did. Which is probably why I loved these movies.

thematahara

Nope, still not telling anyone what to enjoy. Just pointing out the fact that this movie can be enjoyable, despite the fact it will never be released by criterion.

To make a blanket statement like what's his name did is just dumb. So someone likes X3, doesnt mean they have no taste.

tvpuff

Saw this the other day. This movie was godawful. I had no idea why people were up in arms against Ratner before shooting even started. Now I know exactly why. How they could screw up the follow up to such an amazing second entry baffles me. I wish we could pretend this piece of shit was never released and singer went back with a decent script, and made a true sequel to x2, instead of throwing together a bunch of half-assed ideas.

Terrell

C'mon Jack! You know good and well why thematahara posted "get over yourself"! All you've got to do is read purplechoe's pompous post to figure it out. It's not that hard.

Jackskeleton

I actually read it after the first response. So I took the get over yourself as a broad comment against anyone who didn't like it. Especially added together with the "it's a summer film and has a free pass at having little to no substance" angle.

Though the tension going on in this thread swaying from both the extreme dislike to the extreme defense is just so high it could spark at any moment.

McHawkson

Past few weeks, we have been debating over X-Men, Rainer, true to comic, etc… I tried my best to stay out of the debate, through I have whined about Hollywood for not maintain true to comic characters. I knew how Jack felt about whole thing – I felt exact same thing.

I do understand your point of view about comparing comic to movie. It’s difficult for us to accept how they (the movie) made where they rewrote our favorite character(s) into different person.

Let me talk about Daredevil movie, Elektra is one of my favorite character in comic – I had every comic issue with her in it. When I watched the movie, I was outraged how they made Elektra look like weak-ass. In comic, she’s one of powerful assassin for Kingpin till her unfortunate fate against Bulleye.

Now, X-Men movie, there are two characters that are my favorite (Wolverine and Phoenix). At end of X2 where they gave a fire bird hint, I was praying that they would make Phoenix is what she really is in comic. Till I saw the preview of X3, I was like – what the fuck?

Don’t get me wrong, there are few comic-to-movie that I liked: Superman, Batman Begins, Spiderman 1 & 2, Sin City, and Fantastic Four.

If Hollywood wants to make movie from comic, they should stick to character(s) origins. That’s what I wanted to see that.

Terrell

Jack, I took thematahara's "get over yourself" comment as a direct response to purplechoe's post, which I'll quote here.

That's what he was responding to. Frankly, we don't need that kind of pompous crap in this thread, especially from someone whose taste can also be called into question. Of course he's edited the post since.

Jackskeleton

Yes, you took it as a response to purplechoe's post but as I just posted two post ago. I hadn't read it and took it as a general statement.

Much like we don't need any comments like purplechoe's. But just as equally, when we respond to those crazy statements the response and potential flame war in an already high tension discussion can blow to new levels.

Again, no one is saying that it has to be a criterion collection piece or anything like that. But on those same terms a summer blow 'em up block buster can be more than something that is mindless to the point where you can't even enjoy because of drastic changes that they made in transition. Even summer blockbusters should have some level of standards. If you enjoyed it, that's great. But the defense of "it's a leave your mind at the door" shouldn't be the end all trump card in this.


I think this is the real key to it. Yes, different comic writers change characters around based on their interest on the said characters. But in the long run changing Phoenix from a cosmic force to some crazy bitch with multiple personalities then you have a problem. Hell, not even any hint of the whole phoenix anyways. She never died. She was in some TK caccoon as explained by charles.

Wolverine was also changed to a make shift leader and while it's true that he is on just about every team in the marvel universe and the opposite of a loner there. He's still suppose to walk that "loner" line to some degree.

Making the hinted love triangle with kitty, iceman and rogue was lame especially when you had colossus there. The main reason why they didn't even use him was the rushed production schedule and no time to work on his FX in post.

Supermallet

It's weird to think that Colussus had more dialogue in X2 than X3, considering he was meant to be on the actual team in X3.

I rewatched X2 today, and it is a vastly superior film. I even tried to watch it with people's criticisms in mind, and it still held together as a strong film. X3 falls apart and fails at almost everything it attempts.

Peep

Have we been debating that? I don't give a fig if the movie is true to the comic - they are two different things. Just like movies and books. Some of the best movies veer widely from the books that they adapt.

What I can't forgive is a bad movie.

Jackskeleton

Take my example for that. What if you made Harry Potter not a wizard for the films but instead he just suffers from multiple personalities and has a lot of imaginary friends. You would take offense to that regardless of having read the book or not.

Just because it's a comic book adaptation doesn't give it an open offer to completecly change things.

SteelgearX

Ladies and germs, I'd like to announce that no matter who wins this debate we're still all losers cause the movie sucked and we payed for it.

Shazam

Wow. Well I can't bother to read every post in this thread, but the only thing I have to really say is that the movie was just generally very sloppy.

Tonal problems with various scenes, horrible editing problems (we missed Magneto and his day trip to the spa in San Francisco), almost laughable characters (was that one evil mutant a mutant or a tranny?), a creepy relationship with Kitty Pride, and nonsensical use of mutant powers really killed the truly interesting A-plot. You could have replaced Famke Janssen with a cardboard cutout of a muppet for most of the movie for all the "acting" she did - the totally superfluous B-plot was simply a drag on the movie.

Please, someone hire an assassin to dispatch Brett Ratner.

Joe Molotov

Saw it tonight with a few friends. It was meh. The Big Action Scene at the end was pretty cool, but that was pretty much all that was. The rest of the movie was just a bunch of mutants thrown in for no particular reason (what exactly did Angel add to the movie?) and a half-hearted attempt to steal some "With great power comes great resposibility" Spiderman philosophy. Jean Grey did nothing, I don't even know why they bothered to bring her back, other than to kill Cyclops and Xavier. She had about three lines of dialogue, and after a brief confrontation with Magneto, was content to just kind of stand around for the rest of the movie. This movie was just a mess.

pbishop69

X-Men: The Last Stand... sucked!!

Kc

Terrell

Speak for yourself. I didn't lose. I got my money's worth and I don't regret paying to see the film.

Superboy

After watching it for the third time, I found some serious, glaring flaws in the movie:

1. If magneto can control the entire Golden Gate bridge, that means he can control metal within a radius of the length of the bridge - he's standing at the far end. Which means that his plastic prison is useless because his powers can extend beyond it.

2. Professor X is having a hard time finding Magneto, but for the majority of the first half of the movie, he isn't wearing his helmut. Also, why not just search for pyro? it's interesting that we didn't see Cerebro during the entire movie. I guess the danger room budget overwhelmed the movie.

3. If Magneto's only goal is simply to kill Leech, then why not just drop the bridge on Alcatraz?

4. I have a serious problem with Wolverine's character, not just in the movie but in the comics as well. Why Professor X keeps him around is confusing, because apparantly he's not afraid to kill, which is obviously against the Prof's dream of "peace". At the end of X1 he has the perfect opportunity to kill Magneto and get it over with, but here he's simply satisfied with taking away his powers. Despite the huge body count from this and X2.

Terrell

This really is a silly criticism. It's akin to the "why didn't someone ride that giant eagle to Mt. Doom in LOTR and drop the ring in" criticism.

I'm not up on the comics, but I'll render a guess. Can he control metal if he's surrounded by plastic? Based on the films, the answer would be no. Singer was the one that established that fact.

Nowhere in the film up until the professor's death was he shown to be searching for Magneto. His thoughts were all focused on Jean and the cure. Even Hank said Magneto was not their most pressing problem. As for just searching for Pyro, he could have done the same thing in X1 and X2, but he didn't.

He's more concerned with Rogue at that point, and ends up unconscious because of his efforts. Besides, it seems your problem is more with Singer's films in this particular case, and not X3. Anyone can go to such extreme measures to nitpick a film. You can nitpick even then truly great films, if you have a mind to.

Big Boy Laroux

so i saw X3 last night. i tried to lower my expectations after hearing things from my friends, but it didn't help.

this movie, as an ex-x-men reader (ha ha, ex-x-men) was borderline TERRIBLE.

the only redeeming aspect was beast. that's it.

not enough action. when there were fight scenes, they finished so quickly. and then the end scene, with all the mutants fighting... people were just throwing punches (even storm, until the last lightning blast). no one was actually using powers (well, except that one guy that regenerated his arms). this is where having cyclops would have helped. his powers look awesome on-screen. otherwise, it was just hand-to-hand combat, with beast, wolverine, and colossus, which could have been good if we actually freakin' saw colossus! that dude could be my favortie x-man ever, and he gets like zero screen-time in armored form. i did like the shot of him carrying the tv. ok, so this movie had two redeeming things.

also, much of the "fighting" in the movie was "mind-battle", which does not count as action. ooooo! look! things are flying around! how cool! uh, no.

halle berry is a joke. storm has been an absolute joke in all 3 movies, completely because of berry. and apparently, she wanted more screen time here, and she got it. oooh! storm can spin in circles!

absolutely unnecessary profanity. was there profanity in the first two? i honestly don't remember, but here, it stuck out like a sore thumb. like when juggernaut said "i'm the juggernaut, bitch!" that was laughable. HORRIBLE writing. i don't expect GREAT writing, but at least make it adequate.

anytime the president was on screen, i cringed. HORRIBLE acting.

so, it's not enough to kill one of the main characters in x-men history. let's kill THREE! dumb, dumb move. just horrible.



i'm literally sad that i went to see this movie. there was actually promise after X2, too bad singer didn't want to do a third.

Jackskeleton

Well, you can also bring this up. If you had Leech, a power stealing mutant around and the threat of a mutant going buck wild with her power.. wouldn't it have made some sense to just stand him near him. Hell, take him in from behind wolvie. Her power would be nulified without having to kill her.

Also, why waste four cures on magneto, couldn't you save one for Jean? I mean, wolvie could have just kept it in his pocket since his pants seem to be made out of some disintergate-proof material.

Jackskeleton

How about this one.. If Magneto is so gung-ho about the whole brotherhood and so anti-cure. Why would he send in his pawns in to get "cured" and pretty much make them dead to him.

He could have easily stopped those trops by making some sort of barrier like he did to protect against the "cure-bombs"

His powers do not get screwed up if he's surronded by plastic. He just simply can't control plastic. Even in the films. He was able to estract the metal balls from the one fella while in the plastic cage.

If he did want to simply kill leech and he knew the location even being after the bridge drops he could have easily imploded the building. Then again.. he could have simply sent out Multiple Man copies to stop the foot soilders. I mean, you shoot them and you don't do anything negative. Madrox still has his powers and you take out the "cure" threat.

Supermallet

Clearly he sent all those mutants in so he could say, "In chess, the pawns go in first," and then, immediately afterwards, "That's why the pawns go in first."

Terrell

Easily sacrificed for the greater good of mutants. In fact, if you remember Magneto tried to protect those mutants by trying to control the guns the humans were using. Except those guns were no longer metal. Even he was surprised about that. I can nitpick X1 and X2 to death, easily I might add. But you guys rave about those films like they're the best things ever made. Give me a few hours and I can pick apart any film.

Look, I'm not trying to change your opinion. You hate the film. More power to ya. I respect you opinion, even if I don't agree with it. Just looking at things from an alternate perspective, as well as pointing out mistakes in some of the criticisms. Though I get the feeling some of these criticisms are for no other reason than Ratner makes an easy target, much like a Uwe Boll, a Michael Bay, or a George Lucas. Though that's just my own feeling.

Supermallet

It's not just Ratner (I liked Red Dragon and didn't mind the first Rush Hour), it's the more the writers. If the the writers had written a really strong film, I would have put up with sloppy directing. I don't blame Ratner so much as the writers and the studio execs. His name is on it, though, so he does deserve some blame.

Also, to be fair, as a target, Ratner has less technical ability than Michael Bay or George Lucas. Only Uwe Boll is clearly worse.