RockStrongo

Excellently put.

I agree with you. It definately was no Anakin/Amidala.

Seriously though, I also understand the dilemma that Ang Lee faced. Think about it, these are two COWBOYS! How much emotion are they going to show?? He had to walk a delicate line of believability when having them show emotion. In that regard, I think he did a good job. The subtle connection was definately there, but it was not strong like in most love stories (at least to me).

When initially watching it, I wondered how the connection was going to be built. Yes, it was slow, cold at times and felt forced to a certain extent. But, I feel they HAD to act on impulse for it to be believable (again, they are cowboys and not broadway dancers).

My disconnect from the characters really came after they left Brokeback mountain. I just felt like the chemistry didnt grow and like Ive said before, the family negligence really made me cold towards the characters.

Though Im not gay (or a cowboy ), I honestly feel like someone during that era would have more urgency and care towards his family (regardless of what he is dealing with). I really felt like the film focused on his family disconnect too much and it made me not like Ennis.

There HAD to be happy times when he was married, but it never showed it. He was ALWAYS conflicted. I could have really started to care for the character had it shown some connection with his family. Basically, show the double life aspect and conflict that he faced. Instead, I just saw regret and resentment.

Duality

RockStrongo,

Believe it or not, many people lead lives almost completely riddled with regret and resentment. Upon reflection, I actually felt more for Ennis because of the regret and resentment!

RockStrongo

Yeah, Im not debating that it happened. I was just explaining how I think I could have connected with the story/characters more.

I think you will find this a stark difference in those who liked and didnt like it.

digitalfreaknyc

Then I guess I'd definitely feel bad for those who have to live that type of life. Isn't that the point of the movie? No one should have to live like that.

Nosebleed

I wouldn't say that. The fact that they're gay makes it more tragic. If it were a heterosexual couple in the Jack and Ennis roles, they could simply move to another town and begin on a new life together. These two guys couldn't go anywhere. Even if they left their respective hometowns and went somewhere new, they still wouldn't be able to carry on as a "normal" heterosexual couple would. Which is, obviously, why they always wound up back at Brokeback Mountain, and why it was so important to them.

Duality

RockStrongo,

You're straight right? Hasn't this film given you a bit more appreciation for your spouse? You have the love of your life, and the approval of society. Don't take it for granted she'll always be there. Like Ennis, you could have your loved one ripped from you by murderous animals. Jack and Ennis only had their love and that piece of beauty in their lives was destroyed by homophobic a**holes.

digitalfreaknyc

I'm not sure Ennis wanted to go anywhere even if he could.

RockStrongo

Yes, I understand, but was Ennis and Jack at fault at all?

The poor children and to a certain extent, their wives seemed more deserving of my sympathy than either of them. The were the blameless ones. Thats my point. I think alot of people in the straight world would feel the same.

Im not saying that this view is right or wrong. We obviously do not have the same life experience that someone who is gay goes through. But, we CAN relate to having responsibilites and the struggle to fulfill them when challenged.

Yes, it is a shame that people have to live like this (now or then). And, yes, society does put pressures on people to live a certain way. But in the end, I just do not think that society is completely to blame for this tragedy.

RockStrongo

Yes, I am straight and have a fiancee. I agree that it has given me a better appreciation for her. And, God forbid anything happen to her like what happened to Jack. I loathe those who would beat/insult/kill anyone simply because of their sexuality.

But, I just believe that some responsibilty (for them being together) lies on the shoulders of Ennis. Though unpopular, he could have chosen to be with Jack. For someone you truly love, wouldn't you do ANYTHING to be with them?

joeblow69

I don't know, considering what Ennis's dad showed him when he was a very impressionable youth, I can see how Ennis wouldn't even consider living with Jack as an option.

LiquidSky

I think he did the best he knew how. Again, look at the time, place, and these two guys. He also had the fear from when he was a child and saw what happened to two men who lived together.

That said, I think it was more his work that took Ennis away from his children. That plus his stoic nature.

In the end, I believe he realized how distant he had been towards his childen. He reached out to the one daughter.

Duality

Yes, I would do anything. Without getting too personal, I left the first love of my life (a woman), because I knew I couldn't fulfill her needs completely (no sexual attraction). My heart still aches for her and I'm in a loving relationship that has spanned nearly two decades now. So I guess I realize the complexity of the Jack and Ennis predicament. There are so many dimensions it is numbing. They could have chosen to accept their homosexuality, built a life together and paid the price, but that's just it. A price had to be paid either way.

RockStrongo

Yes it did, but it was a diversion only. I think Lee demonstrated where his kids/family ranked in regards to Jack.

For work, he dropped his kids off with their mom, but for Jack, he dropped everything (when he went fishing and told Alma that his boss owed it to him).

I agree, but by then, it was too late for me. I had already disconnected from the character unfortunately.

RockStrongo

Wow, just reading your post, I feel for you. That must have been very difficult. I wish they would have demonstrated that very point in the movie (by showing a strong connection with his family, but yet, his longing for Jack). Im sure that is STILL a major problem in America today for some gay men.

I think your story of a somewhat double life would actually have drawn more sympathy/emotion from me.

LiquidSky

Thank you for sharing your story. A married couple I was friends with in college got a divorce when both finally accepted the fact that each was gay. There was still much heartache because they loved each other but knew they needed to live their lives.

adamblast

It's helpful to view this movie as being about something US films are famous for ignoring: class issues. Ennis was never going to amount to anything--the one and only thing his father ever gave him was self-hatred before dying, leaving him in the hands of a brother & sister who couldn't wait to dump him either. His worldview was county-sized: there's the outdoors, the mountains, and the in-town. It's not just homophobia, whether external or interalized, that did him in: he's the dying image of the Old West that can't find work anymore. These farms are becoming dust once again.

adamblast

Cloaking your homosexuality in a wrapper of straight lies is still the *dominant* gay lifestyle worldwide, more's the pity.

You think every single gay man in Saudi Arabia or Iran doesn't have a wife and kids for safety's sake? The ones who don't, don't last long.

You don't last long as a gay Mormon in America, either. Utah is crammed with men lying to their wives and leading a double life.

Duality

You're welcome. Sometimes revealing secrets, essentially sharing your own story, helps you to, as Ennis would say, "stand it."

Duality

It's a confusing life sometimes.

RockStrongo

True....and I honestly think it would be a more compelling story to show that aspect.

I really think that it would be a more heartbreaking story for us straight people to witness his conflict between love of Jack and love of his family.

In the film though, I really didnt feel ANY love between Ennis and Alma. I think that there would HAVE to be some sort of love there, but I never saw it. Instead, I just felt he was dragging her and the kids along while he struggled with his homosexuality.

I think the lines of sexuality were very definate in this movie. Neither man showed ANY type of love toward his wife (not even emotional).

riley_dude

Since we are sharing stories...
My Dad came out to me 2 years ago. This was after he lived a hetero life for 35 years until my Mom died a few years back.
I think what he went through before he met my Mom was very simular to what Jack and Ennis went through. In the 60's there weren't the choices Men have today and even with the choices today, Men still choose to live a lie so they aren't chastised by friends and society in general.


How much do we have to pay and do we get to see what we are going to be paying for???

adamblast

The Oprah Brokeback lovefest, btw, is apparently showing on Friday 1/27... The producers must be giddy, as this was their key demographic all along, and she'll deliver it for them...

Dead

Guys, this has gotten way out of hand. I said earlier if the comments didn't stick to the topic I would close the thread, and things sure haven't improved since then.