Class316

I was watching Back to the Future 2 and came something struck me.

In the alternate 1985 they could not go back to the future and stop old Biff from taking the sports almanac book cause it would be the future of the alt 1985.

So my question is, how did old Biff manage to go back from 1955 to the original 2015 instead of the alt 2015? After all he gave young Biff the book already! Right?

Cameron

this has been discussed in a few threads...There is also some info on the commentary for the movie. Many people also see this as the reason Biff looks next to dead/disapears after he come back.

There are a few plotholes in the movie...its not airtight....but its a fun movie...and suspension of disbelief goes a long way.

Either way i'm glad you brought it up again...i love seeing peoples head spin while trying to explain/understand the logistics of time travel. It gets people worked up.

PopcornTreeCt

Yeah, there's a Zemeckis and Bob Gale Question and Answer thing and it's pretty good at explaining things. But yeah there are many plot holes in time travel movies.

Jackskeleton

When it comes to time travel books.. it's best not to think about it.

The Infidel

There was no "alt" 2015, other than the fact that Marty had kept his kid from going to jail. When Biff went back to change the future for himself, Marty went back to stop him. Since Marty was successful in getting the almanac back, the only future Old Biff had to go back to was the one he left in the first place, where, as said before, the only difference was that Marty's kid was kept out of jail. Everything happens simultaneously, so even though Marty hadn't gone back yet to stop Old Biff during the course of the movie itself, by the time Old Biff got back to his future, everything had already happened, and Biff's alternate future was cancelled out by Marty going back to stop him. It was kind of a preview of how the movie was going to end. Biff came back and everything was the same for him.

scott shelton

My brain hurts.

Rockmjd23

Did the commentary explain what a jigawatt is?

PopcornTreeCt

It's a gigawatt pronounced jigawatt.

Rockmjd23

jigawho?

Cameron

i can't find the link to that old thread anywhere...can someone who replied search for it with there name...it had some good stuff.

DrStrangeL0ve71

It's time travel, you really cant argue logic and whatnot, every time travel movie has plot holes when you pick it apart.

Rubix

does primer have any major holes?

resinrats

I couldn't see any plot holes in Final Countdown (as far as effecting time). What caused the whole time jump was never explained.

devilshalo

eedoon

There's a deleted scene somewhere in the DVD that the old Biff begins to disappear when he's going back to 2015.

Jon2

Based on a lot of casual conversations, I've come to the conclusion that (barring poorly ploted and written stories, and whether or not time travel is possible) the plot holes of time travel stories are more perceptual than anything else.

For the type of people who believe in pre-destination, or have a philosophy or an outlook that everything happens for a reason and nothing could have changed what has happened, then a time travel story where the protagonist changes history would appear to have a major plot hole.

Conversely, for those who don't accept the notion of pre-destination or of some "higher power" that has everything all planned out, then a time travel story where all the actions of the protagonist are ultimately futile and nothing changes at the conclusion will appear pointless and illogical.

The Infidel

Now my brain hurts.

Fok

I'm confused

Dash

speaking of time travel i belive 12 monkeys is closer than most to being plot hole free

Giantrobo

Yep. [chris rock]It's like playing basketball with a retarded kid. Some times you just let shit slide. Come on maaaan! You can't call traveling on him![/chris rock]

Cartload

Except that he returned to 1985 and resumed his life. Of course, he didn't return until he had gotten over being called a chicken, whereas the Mary in 2015 still had that problem.

Class316

Good point, except the fact that if that was the case should there have been an alt 1985 to begin with ?

Damn this really does hurt the head.

More confusing plot holes :/

Still quite amazing how fun BTTF is after all these years.

Wonder why there's no Internet references in 2015. heh.

And I doubt we'll have hover boards in 10 years.

rennervision

Parts of alternate 2015 would not change even after Biff changed the past. Hilldale was actually a dump in 2015-A, so it would remain a dump in 2015-B. (There were little hints dropped here and there that in the future Hilldale was now a rough neighborhood, even though it was a great place to live in 1985.)

However, if Biff changed the past then I don't see how Doc could have invented time travel and gone on many adventures with Marty. (In the alternate 1985, Doc was committed and Marty was in Switzerland.) So, technically, I think they should have disappeared along with old Biff when he returned to the new 2015.

I always kind of rationalized it by saying Doc and Marty avoided the "ripple effect" by jumping into the Delorean and traveling back 30 years just moments before they would have vanished. So through an incredible case of luck, they turned into a bit of an anomaly - existing in an alternate 1985 where they never should have existed.

The Infidel

But there wasn't an alternate 1985 until Old Biff went back to change it from 2015, and it wouldn't have even existed at all if Marty and Doc would have realized that Old Biff had gone back sooner than they did. Then they would have just gone straight back to 1955, and we (and they) would have never even known about the alternate 1985, therefore making it non-existant. If you do want to say it existed, then it's just simply a timeline, and not an "alternate" timeline. In order for it to be alternate, someone from a different timeline would have to enter to see the differences.

Let me elaborate on what I said in my previous post.

Old Biff went back to give the almanac to his younger self in 1955, while Marty and Doc were still doing their stuff in 2015. Old Biff came back while they were still there, but you notice he's still the same. Like I said, this is kind of a preview of how everything is going to end. Marty and Doc are going to go back, get the almanac, and keep everything the same.

Remember in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, when they said they were going to remember to go back and steal Ted's dad's keys and put them behind the sign at the police station? How did the keys get there if they hadn't yet done it? Because they remembered to go back and do it during their own timeline, so the keys would be there waiting for them, when the past of their timeline catches up. This is basically the same theory in BBTF. Sure, Old Biff went back and returned while Marty and Doc were still in 2015, but they eventually did go back, and that's why Old Biff returned exactly the same. Now, if something had happened to Marty and Doc to prevent them from going back to 1955, even after entering the alternate 1985 timeline, then the 2015 would have also altered, and Old Biff from the original 2015 would have had the alternate 2015 he was seeking.

This is why Marty and Doc didn't disappear; because they accomplished what they set out to do by retrieving the almanac. It doesn't matter when in time they did it...just that they did it.

If you want to get really technical about the whole thing, Marty and Doc never really set things "right". By the end of the trilogy, they created several alternates to how everything started out:

Marty's dad stood up to Biff, giving his dad the upper hand in the future;
Marty himself never raced with Needles, changing his own future;
Doc existed in the past briefly, and by having his experiences with Clara, she never went over the ravine, changing the name to "Eastwood" in the future;
and somehow, Marty's girlfriend's Jennifer's mom must have met and married another man, since Jennifer's appearance was totally different by the second movie.

resinrats

Technically then the bad 1985 should not have existed since the Almanac was stolen back in 1955. Going by the fact that bad 1985 was created, it should have effected 2015 as well. Once Biff gave himself the book, it altered time so old Biff going into future would be the newly created timeline.

Either way, I just overlook this plot point since the movies are a fun ride.