But if you watch Christopher Reeve's performance in the first Superman film, he did his darndest to create 2 separate people when he played Superman and Clark Kent, and in some respects, he was pretty successful is diverting the attention from Clark due to his performance as either persona.

Or just to use Kill Bill Vol. 2 as an example, how many people (without being told) really and truly recognized that Michael Parks played the sherrif in vol. 1, and Esteban in vol. 2? I sure as hell didn't.

First of all you are taking this way too seriously. Secondly, so am I.

Okay wether or not Superman really sees humans as weak, is irrelevant, although I think he does. If Superman didn't see them as weak then he wouldn't be doing his portrayl of them as such, that is the normal non-descript human to him. In other words the perfect disguise.

That doesn't mean he hates them, nor think they don't posses any sort of strength, but he most definitly sees them as physically weak. He has to see them this way, or else what is the point of helping them. He knows they can't do somethings on their own, so he happily steps in. Besides Bill was just saying normally who Supes is, which is Superman. He wakes up as Superman everyday, he had to become Clark Kent, not the other way around. I don't mean in name or anything. No matter what happened to him on earth, he still would've been a Superman, it was just by chance that the Kents picked him up on earth and raised him. The man is an alien, that's not something you can ignore.

Anyway, like I said that's all pretty irrelevant. This is Bill's interpretation of Supes, he doesn't have to be right, and if anything this is Bill's own view on humans. Bill is just making a point, and he's making it in such a way that he, The Bride, and the audience can all play along with, and have some fun.

Another thing, Batman was born Bruce Wayne, he didn't become Bats until later in his life, so in that sense he is Bruce first, batman second. I will agree that he sees himself as Batman first and foremost, but if he wasn't Bruce he never would've been Batman.

Perhaps it's terminology that's getting me, but Superman doesn't wake up as "Superman(tm)", he wakes up as a person with extraordinary powers, but that in itself doesn't makes him "Superman(tm)". At his core, I think he's still Clark, the one with the values to guide him and the use of his powers.

Getting back to this notion of "Natural Born Killer". Are people born with so little value for human life that they can take it without zero remorse? That's the crux of the issue. I think it's one of the "nature vs. nurture" issues in my eyes.

Bill/Tarantino wants people to think that you are pre-destined to be a certain way just because of the abilities you possess, and I just don't buy into it. At the end of the day, you choose to be the person you are.

Oh boy, Patman, opening some can of worms there. This can go on and on. The fact is, no one really knows what makes us who we are. I believe it's a little of both, we decide but there are outside factors. I mean you couldn't be who you are without what is, was and will go on in this world. I believe that there are certain things in us that determine how we might live, but it's the outside world that enables us to be that. Humans do have choices though, we can do whatever we like, but how we became who we became puts limits on that. However, these "limits" can be broken, depending on a great many other things.

The fact is, we don't really know what Superman/Clark thinks when he wakes up, does he think about saving someone, or about getting some coffee, or even both.

It would appear in the KB/QT universe that people are born as who they are, or atleast that's as far as I could derive from Bill's monologue. The Bride disagrees though, she knows BB will become a killer under Bill's fatherhood, Beatrix believes she can change that. If there is another KB though, it looks like Beatrix might be wrong, I have a feeling BB would have to fight in that. Who knows, though, we'll just have to wait and see.

Well, it looks like KB has some serious meat on it's bone, and isn't just some send up to the Grindhouse cinema days.

God not the Superman speech analysist again (sorry it grew tiring on another board :D) I just saw it as:

Superman wakes up - still has super powers and is still Superman - doesn't matter if he's dressed up or not, he can do what he does.

"Natural Born Killer" I think was just Bills attempt to claim Kiddo as his own, if that makes any sense at all. A last ditch attempt to convince Kiddo that he, and only he, is appropriate for her.

Well switching gears here, I watched QT's first two films(still haven't seen Jackie Brown) again within the past two days, and I noticed a lot of things. There was a lot of stuff that's a bit coincidental with KB. I can only think of one thing right now though; Mr Blonde kept a shaving knife in his cowboy boots, just like Beatrix. I highly recommend everyone go back and watch his other films.

i thought the natural born killer line was supposed to be a reference to the movie of the same name (which he wrote the script, although the movie is nothing like the script.

I finally saw it tonight, so I will add my 2 cents.

I am a Q fan. Not a huge fan, I don't go gaga over his movies, but I do enjoy his work, and find his movies to be surprising re-watchable.... 10 years after Pulp Fiction, I still find his dialogues fresh and funny. And memorable too! :)

Back to KBv2. It is so different from KBv1, it is not even funny. I didn't expect that as I tried to avoid all the hype and discussion. I thought the beginning was alittle slow, perhaps it is trying to give more background info to those who didn't watch v1. Budd's character was alittle strange, I thought he was remorseful but he really wasn't, just greedy! ;) So I didn't like his character as much, I wish he WAS remorseful for what he did. And we never found out why Bill and him got into a disagreement.

The fight with Daryl Hannah was cool, definitely a brutal scene that's much more violent than anything in part 1. I guess it is more realistic. It was just great, hanzo blade vs. hanzo blade. I thought it was hilarious to see Darryl flying across the screen for that split second.

And the Pai Mei chapter brought a smile to my face. I grew up with these hong kong Kung Fu movies, and the White beard/hair master (btw, did you know Pai Mei literally translates to "White Brow"?) is so typical of this.... And it is funny too because I am fluent in Cantonese so I understood what he said, and the translation was really bad (I think this is on purpose). Many of the nuances weren't even attempted to be translated. I loved this chapter.

And how The Bride got revenge for her master, another classic touch.

Now, the ending was alittle bit of a drag. I swear, if David Carradine speaks more, I am going to fall asleep. His voice just has the effect on me, kinda soothing, then boom he pulls out a gun. He looks so old too, but still kinda good I guess. I honestly thought Bill would make it out alive somehow (sorry if this is a spoiler).... Anyway, the ending was alright.

Overall, the movie was abit uneven. Could have been edited to make it shorter for sure. It is a notch below the first one in terms of enjoyment. The music was nowhere near as good and catchy as the first one too. Still, I think it is a really cool Kung Fu/Sword fighting movie done by Quentin's way.

I give it a B+/A-.

The sword that said "To Budd, the only man I've ever loved" or something like that, wasnt a Hanzo sword. Beatrix was bluffing. Budd pawned the Hanzo sword.

From the script:

The BRIDE searching under his bed, she sees a sword on the floor, resting in a shiny, black wood mahagony sheath. She removes it from its hiding place.

WOOD SHEATH
Its one of Hanzo's sheaths. She opens it. It is a Hanzo sword. Near the handle, etched in the steel, are the English words; "To My Brother Budd, The Only Man I Ever Loved, from Bill."

Is that the same script that had the black and white scene change?

What makes you think that? I don't see anything in the scene that shows it's not a Hanzo sword.

If it weren't a Hanzo, Elle should have had little trouble slicing through it. Right?

Well hell if I know. :D

Budd said he pawned the sword and I really doubt Bill would put an engraving on a Hanzo sword.

You must have missed the line where Elle says, "Budd said he pawned that," and Beatrix says, "Well, I guess that makes him a liar now, don't it?"

Also, why wouldn't Bill engrave a Hanzo sword? It was clear to me that there not much was sacred to him. He may have even asked Hanzo to put it in there.

I think the best evidence that it is a Hanzo sword is that Elle can't just cut right through it like Beatrix does to many of the Crazy 88's swords in The House of Blue Leaves.

The mentioned line was Beatrix bluffing, I thought.

Also in the Blue Leaves scene Beatrix hits many swords that it doesn't cut through.

Bill seemed to care when Budd said he pawned the sword. Bill said the sword was priceless. Why would Bill engrave on a "priceless" sword. Also why would Budd say that he pawned it?

Budd would say that he pawned it in the conversation with Bill to hurt Bill. They had a falling out and Budd knows the Hanzo swords mean something to him. Also, notice he said he sold it in El Paso. That means it was probably right after the Beatrix job. He's saying it to hurt Bill.

The other reason to say it is to keep your enemy off guard. If he lets people think he's become a soft, tubby titty-club bouncer, they won't be on their guard when they're around him, which makes him more dangerous.

The sword is priceless because it's so powerful. This isn't the equivalent of the Queen's crown jewels here. I can easily see Bill engraving one or asking Hanzo to engrave it.

And considering the way Elle was rushing Beatrix, using the ultimate Hanzo sword, I think a non-Hanzo sword probably would have broken.

Apparently all Hanzo swords have "engravings" on them, The Bride with her Demon/Dog/Whatever and Budd with his Message from Bill.

Budd probably said he pawned it to piss off Bill, it was pretty obvious, both stated and implied, that they weren't getting along to well, what better way to piss somebody off than say they pawned something totally priceless for a measily $250, it doesn't help that it was a personal gift from Bill.

And no, the bit was:
Elle : "What's that?"
Bea : "Budd's Hanzo Sword."
Elle : "He said he pawned it."
Bea : "Well I guess that makes him a liar, now don't it?"

Plus, what kind of brother would Bill be if he gave Budd anything less than the best ;)

Bill wasn't Budd's enemy so the whole "keeping your enemy off guard" doesn't really hold up.

Also I highly doubt Hanzo engraved the sword for him. Did he giftwrap it as well?

The demon/dog thing isn't an engraving. It's Hanzo's signature. He puts that on every sword.

So maybe Hanzo didn't engrave it, but I don't see why it's out of the realm of possibility that Bill would get it engraved.

And Bill wasn't Budd's enemy but they aren't on good terms anymore. They're not going to kill each other, but Budd at least clearly does not want to be in Bill's company anymore.

Nobody said Bill was Budd's enemy, they just weren't getting along at the time. That doesn't make them enemies, it makes them "angry at one another".

Hanzo and Bill seemed to have a pretty strong history with one another as well, so I wouldn't doubt that Hanzo would engrave something for Bill, isn't that big of an issue.

I don't know why Ryo is having such a hard time just accepting the damn thing.

And I deleted my post as soon as I saw your edit. :)

And dammit I deleted mine as well as soon as I saw you delete yours :)

Yeah, but I quoted yours and I figure I'll let it stay. :)

To summarize: Hanzo stamps all of his swords with the little dog/demon thing. It's his signature.

Bill may have asked Hanzo to engrave Budd's sword, or he may have gotten it engraved later.

Budd lied to Bill and Elle when he said he pawned his sword.

Ryo is wrong.

Says you. :)

Hmmm...maybe the Hanzo dog was engraved on the other side of the blade? If you look closely at the scenes where Hanzo hands the sword over (as well as the fight scenes) you will see that only one side has the Hanzo dog.

Yes, the stamp is only on one side.

Ha, don't worry about it. You are wrong. Budd was angry with Bill, that's why he said he pawned it.

Quote from Bill: "You've got to stop being angry with me, and start being afraid of Beatrix." Something along those lines.

Not to mention Uma calls it a Hanzo sword. They make every indication it IS a Hanzo sword, part of the reason that scene is so built up. Now these two ladies are fighting with...TWO Hanzo swords!

Yep, my impressions after my first viewing of the film:

Its a Hanzo sword (why would Bill bother to give and have engraved a sword that was lesser than that)

Budd told Bill that he pawned it just to hurt Bill

The orginal script says its a Hanzo sword. QT changed many things from the original script, but why would he change that?


So in my unofficial opinion, the engraved sword was the Hanzo that Budd said he pawned but really didn't.

overall a good conclusion to the Bride's saga
but the following bothered me

syphon00, try reading the thread.. though it may be sixteen pages.. which leads to ask, why use spoilers? someone gets 16 pages into this they asked for it.

She was shot with Rock Salt. it was said on film. A non-lethal method to take someone down.

I think that was on purpose. She, I'm guessing, learned more from Pai Mei than punching through wood and a few pressure points.

For some reason Bea ALWAYS uses the front door - Vernita, House of Blue Leaves, Budd's Trailer 2x, and at Bill's casa. Doesn't fully explain her loss of IQ points but it happens, but shes the confrontational kind.

And yeah, as stated, Rock Salt "I can't imagine how bad that stings."

As for the way she "escapes" I won't say it's the most realistic, though about the only way imaginable and it does make sense - its just one of those "that isn't possible, is it?" scenes. Then again Kill Bill never was the most realistic movie ever made, what with the thousand year old master and arterial bleeds from tiny cuts in the Japanese and the likes there of.

In Bea's first encounter with Pai Mei, she does move slow and amateurish, but once she trains with him, their synchronized moves later look much tighter and well-disciplined.

I'm going to disagree. I mean, sure, we can say that she wasn't trained (in comparison to Pai Mei, although she states she's an expert at some sort of martial arts), but what it comes down to was that the moves were slow, clumbsy, unpolished. Did it bother me? Not really. Uma is an actress, not a martial artist. I took that scene (as well as many others) with a grain of salt. For example, in the House of Blue Leaves, Uma appears a bit uncomfortable with the sword for someone who is a top assasin. Again, grain of salt.

Oh no, we all know she's no pro. And I think killing by the sword was always more an honor thing than weapon of choice - not positive really. But I think on the Pai Mei scene, in particular, she was worse than usual on purpose - I agree he moves were off but I believe they were supposed to be. Play it back to back with House of Blue Leaves - and while she still looks uncomfortable in HoBL, she looks way less so on the Pai Mei scenes.

No Pro, but the Pai Mei part was still likely intentionally off.

Question about the music. In the scene where Bill goes to Budd's trailer, you guys happen to know what music is playing?

Saw it Friday afternoon. Pretty good, but not great. The fight with Elle was absolutely marvelous though. I have no idea why anyone would think that Budd's sword wasn't a Hanzo sword. While i hoped the ending would have a big fight, i thought the way it ended was appropriate for the story. I stand by my comments in the other thread pre-watching it that it isn't anything that deserves an Oscar nod, although i enjoyed Carrdaine quite a bit.

Saw it the other day. Really great. Overall really enjoyable, the fight between Elle/The Bride was great too. I was glad, that the 2nd half of the movie wasn't fight heavy, that it relied more on the background story and a lot of solid dialogue. The ending kind of surprised me, as I was expecting something else, but overall I really enjoyed it, and can't wait for this on DVD. I should've stayed way after the credits, I heard somewhere that there were bloopers?

At the very end of the credits you see a take from the Crazy 88 fight where Beatrix pulls out the guy's eye. QT calls cut and Uma says something like, "Can't we do that again? It's so much fun!"

Realize this is getting a bit over debated but I belive it wasn't a Hanzo sword.... notice how when Elle ask if it is a Hanzo sword The Bride turns the engraved side away so Elle can't see it and let her know it wasn't a Hanzo sword. The Bride also seems very nervous before the charge, because I belive she is concerned the sword won't hold up against the real Hanzo sword.. it does luckily but she resorts to the eye thing because she doesn't believe it will continue to hold up. Plus, didn't she only take the one sword when she left ?? Think she would have taken both if they were both Hanzo's.
Could be wrong but that's what I got from it.