Is Lord of the Rings Racist??
12-29-03, 02:21 PM
#26
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I spoke to somebody who stopped watching the trilogy after the first film because she didn't feel the cast was diverse enough. She felt that Jackson should have done it like "Star Trek": the Fellowship should have one black guy, one Asian, a few women, etc.
Her reasoning was that this is the 21st century, and that the film should reflect 21st century values. I argued with her for a while, but finally gave up. Interestingly enough, she is an avid reader who gets all bent out of shape when filmmakers change even the tiniest details adapting her favorite novels to the screen (needless to say, she hasn't read LOTR).
Her reasoning was that this is the 21st century, and that the film should reflect 21st century values. I argued with her for a while, but finally gave up. Interestingly enough, she is an avid reader who gets all bent out of shape when filmmakers change even the tiniest details adapting her favorite novels to the screen (needless to say, she hasn't read LOTR).
12-29-03, 02:23 PM
#27
DVD Talk Hero
To be quite honest ... and I'm speaking of the books and not the films ... when I first read them some years ago, it did occur to me that there might be some racist elements.
Foremost, the concept of the Easterlings (from the "East") and the Sothrons (from the "South" - the guys with the elephants) were meant to be Asians and Africans.
And the final book, ROTK, essentially dealth with the white Europeans, essentially the Anglo-Saxons and the Nordics, at war with the "other" races of that hemisphere who were weak and unable to resist the temptation of evil.
That said, Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" at a time when this wouldn't really be much of a concern and the population would think nothing of having Europeans fighting off hordes of invaders from other continents.
And it should just be enjoyed for the big story it is, and it was never Tolkien's intent to infuse any kind of political agenda or allegory into it, even if such things could be read into the story.
Foremost, the concept of the Easterlings (from the "East") and the Sothrons (from the "South" - the guys with the elephants) were meant to be Asians and Africans.
And the final book, ROTK, essentially dealth with the white Europeans, essentially the Anglo-Saxons and the Nordics, at war with the "other" races of that hemisphere who were weak and unable to resist the temptation of evil.
That said, Tolkien wrote "Lord of the Rings" at a time when this wouldn't really be much of a concern and the population would think nothing of having Europeans fighting off hordes of invaders from other continents.
And it should just be enjoyed for the big story it is, and it was never Tolkien's intent to infuse any kind of political agenda or allegory into it, even if such things could be read into the story.
12-29-03, 02:28 PM
#28
Retired
Originally posted by DVD Polizei
I'm surprised The Color Purple isn't called racist, because most of the cast is black.
I'm surprised The Color Purple isn't called racist, because most of the cast is black.
12-29-03, 03:03 PM
#29
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Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
Come on. You know all this lame PC people crying "racist!" only cuts one way.
Come on. You know all this lame PC people crying "racist!" only cuts one way.
12-29-03, 03:23 PM
#30
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"I thank the universe and Mother Earth for the Rap/hip-hop culture and the counterbalancing influence the Rap/hip-hop culture has on the youth here in America and around the world. "
..... huh?
The whole article was pretty off, but I mean, wow -- where did THIS one come from? I can kind of see how he might be saying that rap and hip-hop being the cultural music of choice for the majority of America's youth today has "de-blanded" the "whiteness" that came before it (ignoring, of course, Hendrix, Marley, Jackson -- err, scratch Jackson), but most white kids I knew in high school that fully embraced the "Rap/hip-hop culture" were just as racist as the ones driving around in huge pickup trucks blaring Alan Jackson. The only difference came in the use of an "er" or "a" ending when describing people of an African descent.
I wouldn't say the "rap/hip-hop" culture is any more counterbalancing than the "rock-n-roll devil music" culture was in the 50s; and I wouldn't exactly call that a decade of racial enlightenment (maybe in the lawbooks, but certainly not in public opinion).
Don't get me wrong -- there's some pretty good booty music out there, and it's GREAT for getting a chance to grind up close to some nice heinie (in ways not afforded by music styles past), and I've even learned to play "Shake yo' As*" on the piano, a la Scary Movie 2, but I wouldn't exactly praise the "rap culture" for "saving America's youth" from a "racist" literary classic.
I mean, at least Tolkien used a real language (along with one he made up completely).
..... huh?
The whole article was pretty off, but I mean, wow -- where did THIS one come from? I can kind of see how he might be saying that rap and hip-hop being the cultural music of choice for the majority of America's youth today has "de-blanded" the "whiteness" that came before it (ignoring, of course, Hendrix, Marley, Jackson -- err, scratch Jackson), but most white kids I knew in high school that fully embraced the "Rap/hip-hop culture" were just as racist as the ones driving around in huge pickup trucks blaring Alan Jackson. The only difference came in the use of an "er" or "a" ending when describing people of an African descent.
I wouldn't say the "rap/hip-hop" culture is any more counterbalancing than the "rock-n-roll devil music" culture was in the 50s; and I wouldn't exactly call that a decade of racial enlightenment (maybe in the lawbooks, but certainly not in public opinion).
Don't get me wrong -- there's some pretty good booty music out there, and it's GREAT for getting a chance to grind up close to some nice heinie (in ways not afforded by music styles past), and I've even learned to play "Shake yo' As*" on the piano, a la Scary Movie 2, but I wouldn't exactly praise the "rap culture" for "saving America's youth" from a "racist" literary classic.
I mean, at least Tolkien used a real language (along with one he made up completely).
12-29-03, 03:25 PM
#31
Moderator
Originally posted by Moogz
I mean, at least Tolkien used a real language
I mean, at least Tolkien used a real language
"How about dying fighting side-by-side with a nizzle?"
"Fo' shizzle!"
12-29-03, 03:25 PM
#32
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And besides -- at least Jackson didn't have the Southrons and Easterlings getting messed up on pipeweed all the time; many "racist" films have portrayed ethnic minorities as being hopelessly addicted to their drugs of choice, while P.J. left the ganj to the short white folk. In fact, I should be upset for that reason alone -- not all of us short people have such addictive personalities!
Merry: "You smoke too much, Pippen."
Merry: "You smoke too much, Pippen."
12-29-03, 03:30 PM
#33
Moderator
Originally posted by DRG
But he's not French, he's an American who wishes he was French. Which is so much worse, IMO.
But he's not French, he's an American who wishes he was French. Which is so much worse, IMO.
12-29-03, 03:31 PM
#34
DVD Talk Hero
"Can you imagine how people of skin color, of Persian, Arab and East Asian ethnic background feel when they come out of these films where all the heroes are white and all the "evil doers" are of dark skin."
actually I can since I'm of Asian ethnic background. I thought the movies were really good and didn't even notice that all the heros were white etc. i guess some of us just dont see color as much as other people
actually I can since I'm of Asian ethnic background. I thought the movies were really good and didn't even notice that all the heros were white etc. i guess some of us just dont see color as much as other people
12-29-03, 03:54 PM
#36
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Why does everything has to come down to the level of being racist. Is that all these people can think of, don't they have better things to do in there (now) meaningless lives.
12-29-03, 04:59 PM
#37
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Originally posted by Groucho
I spoke to somebody who stopped watching the trilogy after the first film because she didn't feel the cast was diverse enough. She felt that Jackson should have done it like "Star Trek": the Fellowship should have one black guy, one Asian, a few women, etc.
I spoke to somebody who stopped watching the trilogy after the first film because she didn't feel the cast was diverse enough. She felt that Jackson should have done it like "Star Trek": the Fellowship should have one black guy, one Asian, a few women, etc.
j
12-29-03, 05:55 PM
#38
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Groucho
I spoke to somebody who stopped watching the trilogy after the first film because she didn't feel the cast was diverse enough. She felt that Jackson should have done it like "Star Trek": the Fellowship should have one black guy, one Asian, a few women, etc.
I spoke to somebody who stopped watching the trilogy after the first film because she didn't feel the cast was diverse enough. She felt that Jackson should have done it like "Star Trek": the Fellowship should have one black guy, one Asian, a few women, etc.
Hilary Swank as Frida Baggins
Ke Huy Quan as Samwise
Gary Coleman as Pippin
Parminder K. Nagra as Merry
Halle Berry as Aragorna
Lou Diamond Philips as Legolas
Oded Fehr as Boromir
Ian McKellen as Gandalf (who is now a gay character)
Luis Guzmán as Gimli
Chow Yun Fat as Theodon
Charleton Heston as Sauromon
Not that any are bad actors, but come on!
12-29-03, 06:33 PM
#39
I can just imagine Louis Gossett, Jr. as Gandalf The White. Hmmm.
12-29-03, 06:54 PM
#40
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Some of these posts are just as stupid as the article...But I can't be sure.
12-29-03, 07:01 PM
#41
Hey Giantrobo,
Gossett The White. Glover The White. Like this post?
Gossett The White. Glover The White. Like this post?
12-30-03, 01:14 AM
#42
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Originally posted by jekbrown
now see, IMO that person is racist. If you see something wrong with a group of people simply because they are not the right color, you're a racist. I mean what the heck?!
j
now see, IMO that person is racist. If you see something wrong with a group of people simply because they are not the right color, you're a racist. I mean what the heck?!
j
12-30-03, 02:49 AM
#44
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I think this occured to Peter Jackson as well. In Two Towers EE after Faramir and his Rangers kill the Marching Haradrim, he points out the fallen Haradrim to Frodo, and (I cannot remember the exact wordshe used, maybe someone else can) basically says that he doubts this mans heart was any more "evil" than his. That perhaps the people (governments) sending him to war, were the evil forces. This was also a commentary I believe on his father Denethor.
Please if anyone remembers exactly what was said, please post.
Please if anyone remembers exactly what was said, please post.
12-30-03, 02:55 AM
#45
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Originally posted by rushmore223
I think this occured to Peter Jackson as well. In Two Towers EE after Faramir and his Rangers kill the Marching Haradrim, he points out the fallen Haradrim to Frodo, and (I cannot remember the exact wordshe used, maybe someone else can) basically says that he doubts this mans heart was any more "evil" than his. That perhaps the people (governments) sending him to war, were the evil forces. This was also a commentary I believe on his father Denethor.
Please if anyone remembers exactly what was said, please post.
I think this occured to Peter Jackson as well. In Two Towers EE after Faramir and his Rangers kill the Marching Haradrim, he points out the fallen Haradrim to Frodo, and (I cannot remember the exact wordshe used, maybe someone else can) basically says that he doubts this mans heart was any more "evil" than his. That perhaps the people (governments) sending him to war, were the evil forces. This was also a commentary I believe on his father Denethor.
Please if anyone remembers exactly what was said, please post.
12-30-03, 03:44 AM
#46
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good call. that was an interesting scene... especially since the good guys kill orcs/trolls/urukai with not only no remorse, but actual glee. The other groups of men who are allied with sauron aren't really treated any different, save that one scene.
another note, I dont think the suggestion is that these peoples from the south or east are bad or weak because they couldnt resist evil. I mean really, in middle earth the biggest screw up of all time was a white guy (iseldur) giving in to temptation and not being able to give up the one ring.... the 9 kings of men who get rings of power from sauron are also white from what I remember in FotR... they have gone to the side of evil too. Also, lets not forget that Rohan had been corrupted by evil also via sauruman/wormtongue... if gandalf had not been able to break the spell, rohan (bunch o krackaz that they are) would have been just like the southern/eastern guys... controlled by evil forces. Seems to me that in middle earth men of all colors are susceptable to "going to the dark side".
j
another note, I dont think the suggestion is that these peoples from the south or east are bad or weak because they couldnt resist evil. I mean really, in middle earth the biggest screw up of all time was a white guy (iseldur) giving in to temptation and not being able to give up the one ring.... the 9 kings of men who get rings of power from sauron are also white from what I remember in FotR... they have gone to the side of evil too. Also, lets not forget that Rohan had been corrupted by evil also via sauruman/wormtongue... if gandalf had not been able to break the spell, rohan (bunch o krackaz that they are) would have been just like the southern/eastern guys... controlled by evil forces. Seems to me that in middle earth men of all colors are susceptable to "going to the dark side".
j
12-30-03, 05:01 AM
#48
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Originally posted by jekbrown
good call. that was an interesting scene... especially since the good guys kill orcs/trolls/urukai with not only no remorse, but actual glee. The other groups of men who are allied with sauron aren't really treated any different, save that one scene.
another note, I dont think the suggestion is that these peoples from the south or east are bad or weak because they couldnt resist evil. I mean really, in middle earth the biggest screw up of all time was a white guy (iseldur) giving in to temptation and not being able to give up the one ring.... the 9 kings of men who get rings of power from sauron are also white from what I remember in FotR... they have gone to the side of evil too. Also, lets not forget that Rohan had been corrupted by evil also via sauruman/wormtongue... if gandalf had not been able to break the spell, rohan (bunch o krackaz that they are) would have been just like the southern/eastern guys... controlled by evil forces. Seems to me that in middle earth men of all colors are susceptable to "going to the dark side".
j
good call. that was an interesting scene... especially since the good guys kill orcs/trolls/urukai with not only no remorse, but actual glee. The other groups of men who are allied with sauron aren't really treated any different, save that one scene.
another note, I dont think the suggestion is that these peoples from the south or east are bad or weak because they couldnt resist evil. I mean really, in middle earth the biggest screw up of all time was a white guy (iseldur) giving in to temptation and not being able to give up the one ring.... the 9 kings of men who get rings of power from sauron are also white from what I remember in FotR... they have gone to the side of evil too. Also, lets not forget that Rohan had been corrupted by evil also via sauruman/wormtongue... if gandalf had not been able to break the spell, rohan (bunch o krackaz that they are) would have been just like the southern/eastern guys... controlled by evil forces. Seems to me that in middle earth men of all colors are susceptable to "going to the dark side".
j
good points
12-30-03, 08:05 AM
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I really do think that the author of that article is looking for racism where there isn't any at all. I'm Hispanic and I honestly see nothing there. I adore these movies. Some people will try to find racism, and if it's not there, they'll just make it up to fit their needs.