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Matchstick men: Is Nicolas Cage back for good?

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Matchstick men: Is Nicolas Cage back for good?

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Old 09-22-03, 12:19 PM
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Since this thread is back up, I want to ask some questions (I just saw the movie yesterday).

Spoiler:
Who all was in on the big con against Roy? Obviously Frank and Angela, and I assume the Dr., but what about Frechette? (the guy with the gray beard played by Bruce McGill). I'm having a hard time piecing everything together, and I can't figure out if he was in on it or not. It seems plausible that he could have been a con within a con, but I'm probably forgetting some details.

Also, how did Roy come to that particular shrink? Obviously the con had to be planned out well ahead of the point that Roy visits the Dr, but I can't recall how Roy came to that particular psychiatrist. Was it a suggestion from Frank? (That would make sense). I really can't remember what circumstances brought him there. I guess I'll have to watch it again.
Old 09-22-03, 12:48 PM
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you must not have been paying attention:

-how did Roy come to that particular shrink?
Frank advised him to go see this guy since he cured up another friend/family member of his good. Frank advised him to see the doctor when he ran out of pills.

-the guy with the gray beard played by Bruce McGill
I'm sure he was in on it to. to take a chance like that wouldn't be good for any con to work out. You really did need the full planning of everything, including the made up con within the con.
Old 10-04-03, 05:24 PM
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Here are my problems with the film. DO NOT READ if you haven't seen it, seriously spoilage contained:

Spoiler:
Cage is built up as an anal man in all regard, somewhat powerless to his affliction, but nonetheless, he comes across as being quite thorough. Money in the safety box, money and a gun in the dog, paranoid looking out the window, through job preparation, doesn't leave much to chance. But then we're lead to believe that this man with "no personal relationships" is going to somehow connect with his shrink. If that fails, there is no movie, and there in begins a spiraling chain of coincidence and stupid action that is the plot. Now I"m willing to suspend disbelief, but when it runs simply so counter to the characters at the expense of advancing the story, I can't get into . So the story is further built that some how the therapist or Rockwell characters KNOW he won't call his wife. If he just calls, he knows he has no child, end of movie, end of everything. But lets suspend disbelief for all this, where it simply completely unravels is the custody proceedings. I've never been a divorced parent, but I find it quite hard to believe that such action would be initiated without the alleged mother being called. Just senseless to me. And add to the fact, unless I looked away for a shot, the dog with the gun is in the same room as Rockwell and the D-Day at the end, but she exits elsewhere to retrieve the gun. If my film geography is correct, it should have been right in front of Rockwell. Now, D-Day and Rockwell were there in advance, they could have swapped the gun or swapped the bullets with blanks, just a shoddy loose end. I could add a few more, but these were just a few issues I had, that will keep this from being a true classic. The panic attack stuff was overdone in my book, as a panic attack sufferer. And I also found the much maligned "One Year Later" to be profoundly glib. I can't buy that Cage wouldn't have sought revenge, or at least would have taken longer to both get together with the Sheila Kelley Character AND knock her up.
Old 10-05-03, 11:01 AM
  #29  
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Originally posted by The Nature Boy
Spoiler:
Cage is built up as an anal man in all regard, somewhat powerless to his affliction, but nonetheless, he comes across as being quite thorough... But then we're lead to believe that this man with "no personal relationships" is going to somehow connect with his shrink.
It's not that he CAN'T, but that he WON'T, really. He's almost afraid of meeting people, or worse, confrontation. The only times in the last few years he's met ANYONE is if he's going to con them. Once someone actually talks with him, he's alright. In fact, this is his weakness. He's very lonely, and a bit shy.
Spoiler:
So the story is further built that some how the therapist or Rockwell characters KNOW he won't call his wife. If he just calls, he knows he has no child, end of movie, end of everything.
Exactly, he won't. He doesn't like confrontation.
Spoiler:
But lets suspend disbelief for all this, where it simply completely unravels is the custody proceedings. I've never been a divorced parent, but I find it quite hard to believe that such action would be initiated without the alleged mother being called. Just senseless to me.
Custody proceedings...? I remember that she said she always stayed at her friend's house. The idea that her mother didn't seem to care where her daughter was only compounded Cage's desire to take her in for a couple days.
[QUOTE]
Spoiler:
And add to the fact, unless I looked away for a shot, the dog with the gun is in the same room as Rockwell and the D-Day at the end, but she exits elsewhere to retrieve the gun. If my film geography is correct, it should have been right in front of Rockwell. Now, D-Day and Rockwell were there in advance, they could have swapped the gun or swapped the bullets with blanks, just a shoddy loose end.
[/B]
Spoiler:
She doesn't exit the room - it's a large room, and the dog is closer to the patio doors. She just goes off camera for a bit, as it closes in on Cage, then comes back and shoots. And it seems obvious to me that Rockwell and D-Day DID swich the gun.

[/spoiler]I could add a few more, but these were just a few issues I had, that will keep this from being a true classic.[/spoiler]
These are barely even problems... you might as well say that Raiders Of The Lost Ark can never be a classic because there's a reflection on the glass between the snake and Harrison Ford!
Spoiler:
The panic attack stuff was overdone in my book, as a panic attack sufferer.

I know a panic attack sufferer too, and I thought it was hilarious.
Spoiler:
And I also found the much maligned "One Year Later" to be profoundly glib. I can't buy that Cage wouldn't have sought revenge, or at least would have taken longer to both get together with the Sheila Kelley Character AND knock her up.
Spoiler:
He's been having doubts about his career choice since ever, so when he gets conned, he takes it as a sign that he has to get out. He holds no grudges - he feels that he's to blame.
Now, the scene with him and the "daughter" - a bit too sappy. Self-blame or not, he wouldn't have been too happy with her.
But they've "taught each other so much in their precious few moments together..." Cage honestly missed his chance to have a family and a child, and doesn't want to miss his second one.

Last edited by DonnachaOne; 10-05-03 at 11:05 AM.
Old 10-06-03, 02:39 AM
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Excellent analysis DonnachaOne. I don't agree with every single thing, but you were at least well reasoned, and did let me be more accepting of certian elements. However, just to clarify:

Spoiler:
the blocking of the gun scene was just the final straw to a large progression of issues, I didn't mean that the was the lone reason I wasn't going to see this as a classic


And one more thing

Spoiler:
the custody stuff is discussed when Cage booted her, but meets her after school and they sit in the bleachers. He says he hasn't contacted her mother yet regarding this, which is just too big a hole for me to get past. Just because, he almost certainly would have, and that is the thread that unravels the movie if he does. Now I"m willing to go along for the ride, and I've even recommended the movie just today, to friends I know who wouldn't be as nitpicky as me and dig the twists. But how could he get to the point of going to court regarding custody without talking to Heather? I doesn't and never will make a lick of sense to me. And how can you initate custody for a girl that doesn't exist? I believe he says he's going to court, wouldn't this show up in the records that there's no girl?


Now I can live with the argument "It's only a movie, get over it", because it is and I should. But with a flaw like that, to me, it'll never be the classic that it could have been.

I do appreciate your thoughtful contributions and dialogue.
Old 10-06-03, 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by The Nature Boy
Excellent analysis DonnachaOne.
-sniffle- I'm touched! Thank you.
Spoiler:
the custody stuff is discussed when Cage booted her, but meets her after school and they sit in the bleachers. He says he hasn't contacted her mother yet regarding this, which is just too big a hole for me to get past. Just because, he almost certainly would have, and that is the thread that unravels the movie if he does. Now I"m willing to go along for the ride, and I've even recommended the movie just today, to friends I know who wouldn't be as nitpicky as me and dig the twists. But how could he get to the point of going to court regarding custody without talking to Heather? I doesn't and never will make a lick of sense to me. And how can you initate custody for a girl that doesn't exist? I believe he says he's going to court, wouldn't this show up in the records that there's no girl?
It's been a couple of weeks since I've seen the film, so I don't remember the bit, but I understand what you're on about.
Spoiler:
Perhaps Cage's character felt he had to talk it over with the daughter first, to see if it would be alright, if she even wanted to have a life with him. He may have been avoiding contact with the ex and getting the courts involved until he was sure he was making the right decision.

I appreciated your gracious reply. Thanks again.
Old 02-26-04, 02:01 AM
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I just saw this for the first time - picked it up as a blind buy after rave reviews from Ebert and Berardinelli.

I found the film extremely frustrating. I think that the big surprise ending was evident at the half hour mark - as soon as the daughter showed up. After that everything fell too neatly into place.

As for who was in on the big score:
Spoiler:
Everyone but Roy - Frank orchestrated it, brought in the doctor, the girl, Franchette, even the "police" at the end. That's a lot of ways to split a measly million dollars. A mil may sound like a lot until you split it 6 ways. Of course, it sounds like Frank screwed everyone else out of their cut. So he must've gotten more than that. Anyway, after "figuring out" the film, I was really less interested in it. You know what really would have surprised me? If it *wasn't* a con - if all of those little clues and furtive glances between Frank and the daughter were there and everything was at face value. THAT would've been a coup. The ending as is - just predictable and lifeless. Bleh.
Old 02-29-04, 01:06 AM
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Originally posted by jough

Spoiler:
If it *wasn't* a con - if all of those little clues and furtive glances between Frank and the daughter were there and everything was at face value. THAT would've been a coup. The ending as is - just predictable and lifeless. Bleh.

I agree. I think I would have enjoyed the movie even more if it didn't have the lame twist at the end. I'm getting a little tired of the "Keyser Sose" syndrome that seems to be infecting many films.
Old 02-29-04, 12:37 PM
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The twist wasn't even a twist! I'm not trying to pat myself on the back for having seen it coming twenty minutes into the film - but I thought it was SO obvious that it really ruined the movie for me, because I kept thinking "If I'm right, than this movie sucks. Please don't let me be right. Mr. Scott, I'm trusting you to not pull a stupid non-twist ending on me!"

I think the clues were too heavy-handed, and that too much of the film was devoted to supporting the twist. Without the twist ending - if they'd cut that and everything that supported it - the film would only have been about twenty minutes long.

And this was based on a novel? Was the plot the same in the book? Has anyone read it?
Old 02-29-04, 05:23 PM
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apparently, in the commentary, the original script did not have the twist ending, but robert zemekis read the script and the book, and wanted the twist back in the movie.
Old 02-29-04, 06:26 PM
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But the twist was in the novel?
Old 03-01-04, 01:14 PM
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I have to agree with a lot of the posters here. I almost would've enjoyed the movie better WITHOUT the twist -- it just took me right out of the movie (kind of like the ending of "Identity," another one where the twist made you wonder what the point of the whole movie was).
Old 03-01-04, 04:16 PM
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I loved the twist... except for the fact that it relied on too many things happening for it to possibly work.
Spoiler:
Perhaps i was too interested in the relationship building between Cage and his daughter to think that something maybe amiss.
Old 03-01-04, 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by jough
But the twist was in the novel?
yes, the script originally did not have the twist ending
Old 03-07-04, 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by jough
The twist wasn't even a twist! I'm not trying to pat myself on the back for having seen it coming twenty minutes into the film - but I thought it was SO obvious that it really ruined the movie for me, because I kept thinking "If I'm right, than this movie sucks. Please don't let me be right. Mr. Scott, I'm trusting you to not pull a stupid non-twist ending on me!"

I think the clues were too heavy-handed, and that too much of the film was devoted to supporting the twist. Without the twist ending - if they'd cut that and everything that supported it - the film would only have been about twenty minutes long.

And this was based on a novel? Was the plot the same in the book? Has anyone read it?
I just finished this and had the exact same thoughts. 25 minutes into the movie I paused it and said to the misses. If this whole plan is a con on Roy I'm gonna be pissed. Guess what. I'm pissed.
Old 03-07-04, 10:48 PM
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Yeah, I was frustrated with the whole film after the first 20 minutes or so.

It was just so disappointing - especially since I BOUGHT it on a blind buy since it got so many good reviews. I mean, four stars from f***ing Ebert.

This is a 1 1/2 star movie - two TOPS.

Anyway, mine's already for sale. I only hope that I can get more than I paid for it - that way at least I could get one-up on Ridley Scott. Of course, to be truly even he'd have to give me my two hours back.

Well, it's not the first time Scott's made a crappy film that I paid good money for - so I guess it's shame on me this time.
Old 03-08-04, 03:44 PM
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Wow. You guys should pat yourselves on the back for picking up "the twist" within 20 minutes. No, seriously.

I don't know if you guys are really mad about the twist, or mad because you overanalzyed the movie before you even saw the whole thing. It pisses me off when people blame the movie on things like this. That's what the movie is. Any confidence-based movie is going to have a twist. So go sell/trade your DVD right now, someone else will enjoy it more than you.

Like many, I enjoyed the film. Without the twist, the movie wouldn't have been as good. So I can see why you may not like it based on knowing it prior.

Just to answer some questions regarding book and film differences:

Spoiler:
  • The actual con is totally different in the book. I think the one in the film was a little better, but maybe that's because I saw it first.
  • There's no "One Year Later" in the book, either. Once the con is over, we just see Roy back in his favorite diner (where he and "Frankie" would frequent daily).
  • There were a few more cons that were explained in the book too, ones that Frankie and Roy had done prior to ever meeting Angela.
  • My memory is a bit fuzzy but from what I remember, Angela was never really a part of the final con, at least not in Roy's eyes. She was there for the long-con, but not for the con that Roy and Frankie were trying to pull.

If you have any questions about book/film differences feel free to ask.
Old 03-08-04, 07:54 PM
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is nick back for good?

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808404320

Carl Seltz (Cage), an insurance investigator living a happy life as a husband and father, discovers that he has a secret life, even to him, as Nixon, a homocidal tax collector responsible for the deaths of hundreds. Then, Seltz/Nixon discovers something even more amazing... he's also actually Unit Four, a cyborg killing machine, and the intended savior of the enslaved robots of the future...
umm...

birrman54
Old 03-08-04, 08:42 PM
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Bleh... i'd rather not see another movie named Hard Boiled.
Old 03-08-04, 09:28 PM
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Considering that it's based on Frank Miller's comic book miniseries "Hard Boiled" I doubt they'd call it anything else.

The premise doesn't sound so great to me, but two things piqued my interest:

1) Screenwriter Frank Miller, and
2) Directed by David Fincher

Although he's really going to the multiple personality well a little too often, hm?
Old 03-08-04, 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by jough
Considering that it's based on Frank Miller's comic book miniseries "Hard Boiled" I doubt they'd call it anything else.

The premise doesn't sound so great to me, but two things piqued my interest:

1) Screenwriter Frank Miller, and
2) Directed by David Fincher

Although he's really going to the multiple personality well a little too often, hm?
i guess it's possible that the premise is just a bit confusing, but I'm having a hard time imagining a way that that movie could end up good.

birrman54
Old 03-09-04, 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by Psychlowne
[B]Wow. You guys should pat yourselves on the back for picking up "the twist" within 20 minutes. No, seriously.

I don't know if you guys are really mad about the twist, or mad because you overanalzyed the movie before you even saw the whole thing. It pisses me off when people blame the movie on things like this. That's what the movie is. Any confidence-based movie is going to have a twist. So go sell/trade your DVD right now, someone else will enjoy it more than you.

Like many, I enjoyed the film. Without the twist, the movie wouldn't have been as good. So I can see why you may not like it based on knowing it prior.
I didn't overanalyze anything. In fact one of my biggest peeves of this forum is that most of the people here nitpick movies and don't let them be just what they are. It's just that everything lined up in 20 minutes and the light went on. Well the rest of the movie to me was watching what I already knew was going to happen.

This doesn't happen often with me as I see very few movies but I have to say I felt like I wasted $4.07 on this one. Oh well. You win and lose some.
Old 03-10-04, 01:59 PM
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Yeah, the twist was pretty obvious. What really cinched it for me was when
Spoiler:
He went to the bank with Angela the first time and he added her name to the safe deposit box. It was so spontaneous and out of place that you knew something was up. There was just no compelling reason for him to do that, other than to set himself up to get screwed later.
Old 03-10-04, 02:20 PM
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I don't think you can name one movie that doesn't have a plot hole or two. It's not a perfect movie, by any means, but it's still great.

Some of it (I think) has to do with the character's performances. I think Angela's character stayed very sincere and true to herself throughout, and I believed every minute of it. That's what sold me on it. Obviously Nic Cage did a great job as well, and their chemistry on screen was great. Maybe if you didn't believe that these characters weren't who they said they were, it could blow the case open, but other than that, the various "holes" that are found throughout are mainly for the replay value (or post-analysis).

I mean, they did test screenings, and obviously people would say the same thing you guys did. But enough people (about 4/5, if I remember correctly) were in suspense the whole time. As with any movie of this kind, you may or may not fall within that 20%, and it sucks if you do.
Old 03-10-04, 02:46 PM
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Where are you getting those numbers, Psychlowne? Can you provide a link to the test screening results?

Matchstick Men doesn't just have a 'plot hole or two' but the entire film is based upon a big plot hole.

If you plug the hole, the film is over.

I'm willing to suspend disbelief and accept that Cage's character would be required to do some pretty stupid and very specific actions in order to make the con work - but when the "twist" at the end is given away in the first 20 minutes, it would have been far more delicious and a "gotcha" if the twist went a completely different direction and you couldn't see it coming - or better yet, as I've written above - it would've been great if *WE* were "set-up" and the twist payoff we were expecting DIDN'T come.

THAT would've been quite a twist - if everything was really at face value. It would've made everything that came before even better.

I just found the whole film frustrating, because I kept thinking "You know, if this ends with the twist that they're giving away here, this movie will suck."

And it did.


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