Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Re-read my post a little more closely. Pay particular attention to the end where I don't leap to any conclusions one way or the other.

Did you watch the conference? The PS4 Pro has all sorts of features for UHD gaming, and they aimed a spotlight on both Netflix UHD and YouTube UHD. They are very much supporting UHD.

UHD and UHD BD are not one and the same. (FWIW, it's also spelled "Blu-ray", not "Blueray".) The lack of Ultra HD Blu-ray playback in the PS4 Pro is not inherently indicative of a lack of confidence in the format. We know what Sony did, we know what Sony hasn't done, and we know what a Sony representative said. Those are worth discussing. I can't relate to your obsession with what Sony thinks or feels, or to whatever extent either of those words can apply to a corporation.

Sony said their first Ultra HD Blu-ray player will hit the market in the current fiscal year, so April 2017 is the ceiling as things stand now. I haven't seen any credible source (or even an un-credible source) say "late 2017".

As far as I know, Sony uses MediaTek tech to power their Blu-ray players, and MediaTek's UHD BD SoC isn't in full production (or only just recently went into full production; "2nd half of 2016" is as detailed an answer as I've been able to find).

I'm not. You're willfully misreading what I'm posting.

I could rattle off an extremely long list of things about UHD BD that make me frown. I have very limited expectations for what the future holds for the format. I'm far from some sort of UHD BD cheerleader. I even agree with Sony that UHD BD playback was an inessential feature for the console, for crying out loud. I think it's silly to have a UHD-centric console with "Pro" in the name that misses out on the highest quality form of UHD media available, but I understand the call they made.

I am interested in conversations that have some measure of thought or consideration behind them. I'd point to this post of Coral's, for instance, as what I'd like to see here (and it's not exactly eye to eye with the way I feel). I am not exactly left with the sense that you're interested in a proper conversation.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think this is where a lot of confusion lies. From a few of my friends and co-workers, they think UHD is the same as UHD BD. More specifically, UHD is the physical media that can be played on 4K TV's. I didn't even attempt to explain Dolby Vision and HDR.

And in terms of Sony lacking confidence, they still own the patent for blu ray, right? Or how does that work for UHD BD's? If they still own some level of blu ray, then I see very little reason for them to abandon it. It will still make money, no matter how small.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Sony has a slice of the pie, but they aren't the only ones with the fingers in their Blu-ray patent pool. I seem to remember reading that Panasonic actually held more Blu-ray patents than Sony.

It's kind of strange how in a lot of ways, it feels like Ultra HD Blu-ray is getting to the party too late and yet it's not quite ready for prime time either. (...or maybe it's just me!)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I'm very much interested in a "proper conversation". Unfortunately a "proper conversation" seemingly can't be had when people refuse to look at all the evidence that is before us, and continue to bury their head in the sand. All while issuing vague threats of moderator action for having a disagreeing viewpoint. To top it off, when certain people are being intentionally obtuse with regards to UHD vs UHD blueray. The conversation has always been about UHD blueray and Sony's apparent lack of confidence in the format, and you obviously know that, as evidenced by your continual mention of a possible standalone player release possibly 8 months in the future.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

It's not just you... it feels the same to me as well.

It's not just the disc format, it's the whole UHD thing as well.
Not all UHD TVs support HDR... and those that do, some have either HDR10 or Dolby Vision (rare that they have both)... and then the implementation of them differs as well where the TVs can't take proper advantage of them (ie. not bright enough, etc). This just confuses the consumer and turns them off. Nevermind that it pisses those off who realise their new UHD TV doesn't do HDR (or well enough). People can't be dropping big bucks over and over again until the manufacturers get things right.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I feel like UHD BD is actually far more fully formed than Blu-ray was at launch.

Blu-ray at launch couldn't do more than a single layer for discs, were using legacy MPEG2 encoding for video, and didn't have all BD-J features. And it was released long after HDTVs were becoming the norm.

UHD BD is actually ahead of the curve, comparatively. It took a lot less time for a 3 layer disc to come out than it did for Blu-ray to get double-layer discs (it helps that it's based on the existing BDXL format). They're already HEVC H.265 encoded, and support both HDR and Atmos.

I do think Coral has a point that the UHD 4K TV market is still nascent and working out some kinks. In some ways, UHD BD is helping shape the TV market, since the TVs are moving to make HDR 10 a default option to support UHD TVs, while the move to HDR might've not happened as quickly, or have been split between HDR10 and Dolby Vision for longer, without UHD BD.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

It's the HDR component of UHD that hasn't been fully formed yet. Since it's the largest piece of the puzzle then I'd say it's very important that it does get fully formed ASAP. In a way, it's understandable that these things take time and that there will be little format wars deciding things. But that doesn't take away the fact that seen in all its glory, that UHD is a pretty big and worthwhile step up.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I have a 2 year old non-4K display which I will stick with for the next couple of years - hopefully by then it will be fully formed. I would love to pick up a new 4K display, UHD BD player and a bunch of discs knowing things are the way they should be.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

What do you mean by "not fully formed"? Do you feel that there's something missing in the current implementations (HDR 10, Dolby Vision), or are you referring there being competing implementations and not one standard, or is it more that not all 4K TVs have implemented HDR yet?

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Both. Most 4K TVs sold today either don't have HDR at all. The ones that do are either have lower peak brightness than what is ideal (under 1000 nits), or the HDR is has is static and not dynamic (HDR10). And then there are the discs, all of which have only HDR10 static. Dolby Vision discs and players won't be available until next year and then there is the HDR10 dynamic open source standard that Sony and Samsung plan on supporting which may usurp Dolby Vision on disc. So it's kind of a mess right now, but that said HDR does look very good now if you have a good HDR display to watch it on.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Sony did announce that player, by the way:

This is a ridiculously high-end player shipping only to custom installers, so expect the price tag to be stratospheric. (They also introduced a $15,000 projector!) No consumer model announced yet.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

So release some titles and a high-end player for the niche videophile market.
Sounds similar to their approach with SACD. And we know how successful SACD was with the masses. ;)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The projector is at the same list price as their previous models for the last few years. I was hoping that they would drop the price down to $10k this time. The MSRP in Japan is only $8800 when converted from Yen.

They did release a stripped down 4K projector last year, the 365ES, so I assume they may release a 375ES, but if it is still without HDR, then it's not worth the $10k list price.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

At CEDIA, Oppo also unveiled their first Ultra HD Blu-ray player, the UDP-203. $499. Targeted for release before the end of year.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

That's very reasonable for their first UHD player. I'll probably get that one.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yep the Oppo will be the one I get when I eventually jump in.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

in regards to the OPPO:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1474013250

"The player obviously conforms to the UHD Blu-ray specification, meaning support for 4K Ultra HD resolution, HDR (High Dynamic Range), and wide color gamut (up to Rec.2020). It will support the HDR10 format but does not appear to support Dolby Vision (Dolby’s premium HDR format), which makes us wonder why Oppo has opted not to release it earlier."

damn it...

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Hello gang!

Long time member, rare poster. I have been thinking about getting a 4K set and UHD player, but am not 100% sold yet. A couple of years ago I sold off the majority of my physical media, thinking I'd be satisfied with streaming services and, uh, other means of acquiring films. In recent months I've realized that at heart, not only am I a movie lover, I'm also a collector, and I like having a library of films. Also, I realized that the vast majority of movies I was interested in just weren't out there. Sure, you can always find SOMETHING to watch between Netflix, Hulu and Amazon, but it's usually not what I was actually looking for.

SO, I've started rebuilding my BD collection, and am interested in 4k/UHD. I'm just not sure if it's the right time to take the plunge. I currently have a 70" LED non-4k set that I have really loved, and it is going on four years old. Perfectly nice set, no complaints. But it doesn't do 4k or 3D, two things I'm kinda interested in.

I went to Best Buy and looked at the 4k sets, but it's hard for me to really get an idea of whether or not it's worth the "upgrade". For one, they're all in torch mode, bright as can be. They're also often mounted in odd places in order to get as many tv's on the floor as possible. And lastly, they tend to be demoing with movies on "movie mode" or whatever, which I can't stand.

So it's hard for me to get an idea in person of whether or not UHD is really a big enough improvement for me at this point to make a difference.

The other issue is cost. The biggest 4k/OLED set I could get in my budget is gonna be around 55", whereas I'm used to having my 70" screen.

So...thoughts? I've poked around the Blu Ray forums but those conversations get so technical that I practically get lost. My real question, I guess, is: is UHD/4k a big enough improvement over my current 70" LED BD experience to justify the cost at this time, or should I hold out for a while? I don't want tech specs, I just want your thoughts and experience. I'm an old school guy that moved from widescreen VHS to Laserdisc to DVD to BD, and I'm wondering if the jump from BD to UHD quality will be a similar jump to those I experienced in those various format shifts. How much better can UHD look than BD?

Longwinded, may be why I don't post often. Thanks for your input!

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Dolby Vision on disc isn't yet a slam dunk. Even now they don't have a license for UHD players. One wonders why that is so. HDR10 dynamic was approved recently and is free open source and frankly is just as good, so it could be that brand of dynamic HDR that prevails on disc. Or it good be both. But obviously there is no room for both on the same disc.

In my disc I have no interest in DV as both my HDR TVs are fairly new Sony models that will never get DV and I have no plans to upgrade them for several years. So the Oppo UHD player is not missing anything I'll regret not having later.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Don't know what your budget is, but you'll definitely want a 4K TV with HDR and the Vizio P series is by far the best bang for your buck. The 55" is around $1300. There are cheaper "HDR" models but then those don't have true HDR (meaning no wide color gamut and low peak brightness) so I would stay away from them.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Thanks for the advice! I'm looking around the $1500-$2000 range. I'll check out the Vizio!

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Giles Baker from Dolby sez that the first Dolby Vision discs are expected in the first half of 2017 with the first DV-capable players expected later in the year. It's unclear if "later" means "second half of 2017" or not.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

the whole UHD marketing/production has been a rushed affair all along so far, I'm really not sure I'd want to buy a player til maybe mid year of 2017 - there's been murmurings that Disney will side with Dolby and release UHD's with Dolby Vision, if that's the case, then I don't want to plunk five hundred dollars down now and get a surprise from CES 2017.

DV looks spectacular via VUDU - 'Oblivion' is superior versus it's UHD counterpart.

someone better have a player out when those DV discs do get released or it's another 'wait and see' game

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

In short, for the size TV you are used to, you'll see a difference. My big complaint when I was looking for a TV was that I wanted a 70"-70"+. But the price difference from 55-65" to 70" is just stupid. I did decide that a good 65" TV is close enough and the price doesn't jump from the $2k range to $4k. So if you can scale back a little, you'll be very happy with 65". And there are models out there that support 3D, so look at Sony, LG, and Samsung.

In terms of being old school (as am I), just know that your old school media (and jump in resolution from VHS to to laser to DVD) isn't what 4k is best used to watch. So watching Texas Chainsaw Massacre in 4k, you won't see much of a difference, but watching Oblivion, you will see it. 4K is for the new stuff really. But really, if you're interested in 4k/UHD, you'll appreciate the jump since you've been seeing the evolution of resolution and how movies look in so many ways. Granted, the leap in what you see from 1080p to 4k is not as great as VHS to laser, but still noticeable with the new movies.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The 65" is $2000.00 but you might get it cheaper. That has a better panel than the 55" anyway. You'll lose just 5" which I don't think would be a big deal.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

interestingly according to a new Forbes 'Tech' online story Vudu is allowing both Dolby Vision and HDR10 4K streaming:


Vudu To Ditch Dolby Vision HDR Exclusivity

written by John Archer

U.S. video-streaming service Vudu has exclusively revealed to me that it’s planning to introduce support for the HDR10 video format, ending its unique practice of only supporting the Dolby Vision HDR platform.

The revelation came in response to a question I raised with the service over the thinking behind its long-standing Dolby Vision-only HDR support. This, verbatim, is the answer I received:

“Dolby Vision is the highest quality HDR solution, as well as the first to market. Vudu has not committed to any exclusivity related to Dolby Vision, but, in our quest to deliver the best customer experience and to be a leader in new technology delivery, we launched with the solution that was available before there was an HDR10 standard. We expect to support HDR10 as well, so that we can deliver the best experience, to as many customers as possible.“

Obviously the last line is the killer one here. But it’s also interesting to see Vudu so keen to put to bed rumors that it had done some sort of formal exclusivity deal with Dolby.

After all, for some AV industry commentators, Vudu’s Dolby Vision-only position has been seen as proof of the existence of a new and potentially damaging HDR format war. Yet if you take it at face value, Vudu’s new statement makes it clear that its initial lack of HDR10 support was a merely practical decision that had nothing to do with a deliberate attempt to position Dolby Vision as some sort of arch rival to HDR10.

In fact, Vudu’s announcement of upcoming HDR10 support means that really the only continued ‘proof’ of an HDR format war – a war which Dolby persistently and increasingly convincingly denies exists – is coming from the mouths of spokespeople for the TV brands that currently don’t support Dolby Vision on their sets.

Vudu’s announcement will come as a great relief, of course, to people who’ve invested in TVs that only support the HDR10 flavor of HDR, not Dolby Vision. For as well as meaning that Vudu’s service is no longer essentially ‘off limits’ to them, it makes it look much less likely that other ‘Dolby Vision only’ streaming services will emerge in the future.

The move to supporting HDR10 as well as Dolby Vision also surely makes great commercial sense for Vudu given that only a few brands – most notably LG and Vizio – support Dolby Vision, while every HDR-capable TV in the marketplace supports HDR10. In other words, Vudu’s user base could well see a healthy increase on the back of its HDR10 news.

If all this talk of HDR10 and Dolby Vision is just gobbledigook to you, check out this jargon-free introduction to what HDR is all about.

You may also be interested in my reviews of the Dolby Vision-capable LG OLED55B6 TV, and HDR10-only Samsung UN65Ks9800 TV.

~~~

so far only Universal has included purchasers of the UHD edition access to view the DV encodes through Vudu - which at this point includes:

Lucy
Oblivion
Snow White and the Huntsman
Lone Survivor

and I assume

The Huntsman
Warcraft
Everest

~~~

I recently watched 'Lucy' and that presentation was outstanding - the brightness, sharpness and colors were eye searing - wow! I'm hooked.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

That's great news! Now I can have access to those UHD versions from Warner and Uni (and Paramount?). But frankly the UHD BD versions look far better (as I compared Angry Birds UHD BD with the Sony UHD from their Sony Ultra service), so I don't how much use I'll get from them. But it's nice to know that they'll at least be there and have access to them.

I wonder if VUDU will also offer the dynamic flavor of HDR10 once it becomes available? I have faint hope that my TV is upgradable to that and if so that would be way cool.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

How often do you guys buy tvs on average? If I bought a new one now, I doubt I'd replace it unless it broke for at least 7 to 10 years, but my parents used to ride them into the ground.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I average every 3 years, but since I have 3 rooms to feed (living room, bedroom and den, with the living room always having the newest set), each TV gets about 9 years of use, by which time is it nearly worthless and I pass it on to a family member in need.

But since I bought two of them this year (bought a second with the plan of returning the first but decided to keep it anyway), I'm good for at least 4 more years, maybe 5. I'll probably get an 8K TV by then.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Thanks, this is exactly the sort of input I was looking for. I think you understand where I'm coming from perfectly. I'm going to check out some more 65" sets, maybe see if there are any holiday deals coming up. Thanks again!

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yeah I have the German import of the UHD Texas Chainsaw Massacre and doesn't look much better all because it's very grainy and the only difference is resolution. HDR is where you really notice the difference (such as Oblivion as you mentioned).

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

'Oblivion' though has been savagely criticized as being 'softer' looking than the bluray edition. Why and how Universal could degrade the UHD to be inferior is beyond me --- I plan on watching the Dolby Vision version at some point over the weekend.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I don't have that movie (I might have purchased it by now but obviously after the bad reviews I will pass), and I agree it was a mistake to soften that up in the transfer process. Don't know wtf happened. I guess in that case ignorance is bliss as the HDR is very good and from most people's accounts is the better watch, even if a little softer (which it isn't actually in all the movie and is sharper in some areas...rather odd).

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

No problem. And keep in mind that 2017 model TV's will start coming out, right around the holidays. So look out for the 2016 ones to drop in price. Just remember to look for those that have HDR (or if you're looking for a Vizio or LG, they'll have both Dolby Vision and HDR). Note that Vizio is the best bang for the buck, but they do not have 3D. So weigh your pros/cons about having it. I personally get much more out of home viewing of 3D than in theaters. To the point I usually skip the theater and just pick up the 3D set when the home release comes out.

I don't recall noticing a softer look, but then again I never did any side by side comparisons. But all the scenes where they're up in the clouds, those look so damn good. Reference I would say.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Nice that I finally have company here in someone else besides me enjoying UHD Blu-ray. Now I don't feel like such an oddball. :p

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Before going out and dishing good money on a 4K TV and a UHD-BD player, make sure you're happy with the titles that available for the format currently (both in quality and quantity). Hardware is pointless without software.

Personally, there isn't a single title I'd want to own available on the format right now. There are a few movies I thought were decent, but nothing I feel the need to own and re-watch.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Not even the original Ghostbusters or Labyrinth? I'd think Deadpool, The Revenant, Sicario, Mad Max: Fury Road, and The Martian would make a lot of folks' lists.

There's not a wealth of spectacular titles right now, but we're only six months in.

It'll probably be another year or so until I'm able to buy in. (My wife loves the idea of me going nuts with my home theater again, but she wants me to wait until we're in our next house, which...fingers crossed...will hopefully start being built next summer.)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I'm waiting for the OLEDs with HDR to come down under $2k. But if I had to buy a TV today, I'd still want a decent set with HDR and Dolby Vision like this one for $1699:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019O5F8CQ/

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I enjoyed most of them for the most part (Revanent was overrated), but not enough to own any of them. I'm not falling into the trap that most of us did with DVD. It has to be a great film and re-watchable for me to purchase it (assuming the transfer is good)..

Also, I'm not spending more than $15 (normally $10 or less) on a BD currently (with the exception of a few Criterions). So right now, even if the films available on UHD-BD fit my quality/re-watchability criteria - I'm not spending $35+ CAD (plus tax) on average for a UHD-BD. That's insane in 2016.

I had around 230 DVDs, but only have about 25 BDs. I don't need movies sitting on the shelf collecting dust.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Pretty much in the same boat. Going to want a good OLED at 65". I'd be willing to go up to $3K for a display but it better be the bee's knees.