Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

If by "soon enough" you mean "possibly as late as April 2017," then yes:
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/1387...ear-until-2017
Sony could potentially completely miss the 2016 Christmas season.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

http://i.imgur.com/KeDbMSi.gif

As I recall, Blu-ray adoption was heavily tilted towards owners of the PS3 from November 2006 up until HD DVD called it quits in January 2008. I seem to recall some articles/blogs/whatever saying that although each average individual who owned a PS3 bought less discs than the average individual with an HD DVD player, the sheer number of PS3 owners was enough for Blu-ray to outsell HD DVD disc sales every single week or month. I remember when Transformers hit HD DVD (and not Blu-ray), it was the #1 title that week, but Blu-ray had a massive 2 for 1 sale (or something like that) which allowed the total discs sold that week to just barely outsell Transformers (or maybe it was a complete blow-out... but I remember that was the only time HD DVD had a chance of outselling Blu-ray, and it didn't end up working out for HD DVD).

Anyway... all I'm saying is... PS3 was definitely the biggest factor in that format war, in my opinion. It was cheaper than all the other Blu-ray players and it was better and faster than most players released in the following years.

I was never convinced that the PS3 needed to use Blu-ray discs for the games, though. Cross-platform titles were on Blu-ray on PS3 and DVD on Xbox 360, but (almost always) the 360 games ran 'better' even if they had to come on multiple DVDs. Sony's exclusive games may have made good use of the extra space.

But Adam is wrong about one thing... I think. PS3, from launch, always forced installations onto the internal HDD before you could play the games, just like the PS4 and Xbox One do now. Early XBox 360 games let you play the game "from the disc" but in the last few years before this generation, almost every game required installs for better performance. Luckily, both systems now have a "ready to play" feature when a certain percentage is installed instead of being forced to wait for 100% installation, but depending on how the game utilizes that, it's not always functional.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yep, I was helping a friend move his TV/entertainment centre to the basement this weekend and had a conversation with his wife. She said there was no point in hooking up the BD player as they haven't used it in a couple years. She just streams everything now. She didn't understand why people still bothered with discs... they took too much space, get lost or damaged because of her kids and browsing through them to find something to watch was a pain. She loves just sitting on her couch and having a world of movies available to her at the touch of a button. She also said because of streaming she's watched movies that she wouldn't have known about otherwise - because it's all there at her fingertips. Plus it's much cheaper to stream.

When I told her that some people prefer the higher quality of physical media, she was confused and said she never noticed a difference in quality between the disc and Netflix.

There are millions and millions of people who feel the same way. To them, there is absolutely no advantage to buying discs. It's a really tough sell.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

There are so many 4K TVs on the market now, including a bunch from Sony... yet they're taking this long to release a UHD stand-alone player and aren't going to include UHD-BD in the PS4 Pro? Does this sound like a company who has a lot of confidence in the format? There's no way to spin it... and their releasing some movies on UHD-BD does little to suggest otherwise.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yeah, Sony is messing up left and right with 4k. So much for them wanting the Playstation to be the center media hub of people's living rooms. Overall, it's taken way too long to get UHD players on the market. I would have thought by this time (and the upcoming holidays) we'd be seeing 6-8 players at the very least. I guess not. And now Microsoft is one of the big UHD players. I hope they eat up Sony's profit line, which will be fairly easy to do if Sony drags ass on releasing their standalone players after the holidays. Which means every XBox One S sold will be one less sale for Sony.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Sony took an inordinate amount of time to finally get their first standalone Blu-ray player on the market as well, for what it's worth. They turned it around faster than they are with UHD BD, whenever that first player winds up launching, but they seem content to let other folks be first to bat.

Not "some movies"; more than anyone else. They're also moving forward with at least one standalone player. Does that sound like a company who has no confidence in the format?

I mean, I don't think Sony believes that Ultra HD Blu-ray will set the world aflame and immediately cement itself as the go-to format for consuming media. I'm sure they have realistically modest expectations. There's a healthy middle ground between cheerleading and that whole "See? See? Not even Sony cares!" mindset. If they thought it was a dead end, they wouldn't bother at all. They certainly wouldn't be the only ones sitting out on UHD BD at present.

I personally believe it's just a matter of cost, be it dollars-and-cents or some sort of opportunity cost. The numbers didn't work with UHD BD while including the features they felt like they had to have, so out it went.

Mandatory installs were very common, but it wasn't routinely like the PS4 where every byte of data on the disc is copied to the hard drive. For instance, Resistance 2 only required a 350 meg install, and there was definitely more on the disc than that.

Right. I'm expecting early next year, although I'd be surprised if it were that far into 2017. Hopefully we'll hear more on Wednesday during Sony's presser at CEDIA. There are murmurs that they'll be showing off two players, but I'm taking that with a few grains of salt.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think you may have misread my post. I said nothing about HD-dvd. I said the PS2 (TWO), helped in DVD sales (not HD, but plain DVD) much more than PS3 helped in blu-ray sales. Part of it due to the dwindling interest in physical media going from the PS2 to PS3.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Well, if they aren't including it in their new system, and there is no reason to for Sony, then that pretty much answers the question, doesn't it?

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

It does seem strange that they are so Pro UHD on the software front, but lagging so far on the hardware front. And when they get an opportunity to put out a player, they choose not to.

Well, in that case they already had a blueray player out that they were trying to push, no? Granted, it was a gaming system.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

They are putting out a player.

No, it doesn't.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

This is debatable, especially since the Xbox could also play DVDs, once you got the remote control add-on. At least in the US, PS2 may not have had that much impact on DVD sales.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/44-mov...g-dvd-use.html

By the time PS2 was released in 2000, the DVD format had been around for 3 years, had already killed competitor DIVX, and players were already averaging $200, less than the PS2. It may have been the first DVD player for many gamers, but non-gamers weren't getting a PS2 just to play DVDs.
http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=497


This is in contrast to Blu-ray where the format was only a few months old (June 2006) when the PS3 was released in Nov 2006, and it was the cheapest player by a significant margin. People were inclined to get a PS3 as their Blu-ray player, even if they weren't gamers.


DVD was a much bigger success, but I think the PS2's influence on that success was much smaller than the PS3's influence on Blu-ray winning out over HD-DVD in the "format war."

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yes, but Sony released the PS3 - which played Blu-Ray. And it's been said that Sony's delay of releasing a stand-alone player was to help to push the sales of PS3s. I know a bunch of people who bought a PS3 soley for the BD player. This time around Sony hasn't released a UHD-BD player in any form and won't have one until a year after the fact. So there's definitely a big difference this time around.


Yes, just like Sony released the more SACDs than anyone else... until they barely released any at all.

[/quote]They're also moving forward with at least one standalone player. Does that sound like a company who has no confidence in the format?[/quote]

No, it doesn't sound like confidence. It sounds like waiting it out and testing the waters and gauging the formats traction based on what's happening with other manufacturers. It sounds like very cautiously hedging their bets.

Just looking at it from a realistic perspective. IMO, Sony's actions are showing me that they don't even have modest expectations. It really seems to me that they're seeing this is a small niche - where even Blu-Ray would be considered mass-market appeal by comparison.

The fact that there are many others that are sitting it out - and not just the company that pushed their previous iteration of the format quite heavily kind of proves the point, no?

To me UHD-BD is a lot closer to SACD than it is to BD with regards to adoption. And from someone who actually owns a SACD player and SACDS, that's not a good thing.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yeah, I rambled and threw in mentions of HD DVD. But jjcool said:
You responded with:

When I say I remember it differently, I just mean that I think the PS3 helped push Blu-ray adoption enough to kill off HD DVD, and that was as important (more important?) than PS2 helping DVD. That said, I wasn't paying attention in the first couple years of DVD, so I can't say definitively which had a bigger impact. I didn't own a PS2 until the slim one came out. One could say that DVD was headed for the popularity it had with or without the PS2... PS2 just made it quicker. :)

In other words, saying PS3 helped Blu-ray win over HD DVD "a little" is a vast understatement. ;)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think he means that Sony passed on the opportunity to include a player in the PS4 Pro, releasing a UHD Blu-ray player now, instead of waiting for the consumer products division to come out with theirs. It's certainly a less bullish move than they could've done.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I was one of 'em! I didn't even have any expectation that I'd game on the PS3, although it wound up being my platform of choice.

The Sony of 2006 would probably have put an Ultra HD Blu-ray player in the PS4 Pro.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sony of 2016 would not have included a Blu-ray player in the PS3 if they could do it all over again.

That's part of what I'm getting at when I push back on the "confidence" argument. Sony deciding that Ultra HD Blu-ray playback ultimately doesn't make sense for the PS4 Pro does not inherently indicate a lack of confidence. If they had included Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, that wouldn't necessarily be a vote of supreme confidence either.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Are you arguing that the PS4 Pro decisions was solely about what's best for the console, not considering the rest of Sony and their investments in the particular media?

I'm still not sure that not including UHD Blu-ray in the PS4 Pro was the best move for the console. 4K UHD at the moment is niche, and the PS4 Pro is designed to market that niche, but it excludes a major source of 4K content that many 4K TV owners would like to have. I could see many of them picking up a XB1S instead and/or waiting for Scorpio. I mean, if a 4K TV owner doesn't care about image quality enough to want UHD Blu-ray, why would they care enough to by a PS4 Pro?

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

That's what I recall about 2006 Sony, was that the PS3 was being promoted as a full High definition media hub for movies and games. That never came to fruition, and combined with the age of streaming, they just don't see the value anymore in the promotion of physical media. Yet they keep pimping 4k. But there still are people who are more inclined to buy a PS or XBox if it has the capability, compared to standalone players. They're the same size, and price. Ask most people what they'd prefer, a gaming system that does full media, games, and streaming, or a player that plays certain media and has a few streaming apps.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think Sony is a more conservative company now than they were ten years ago, and I don't think they'd be as willing to take a steeper loss on a console or raise the price to something potentially offputting to support UHD BD.

Even if including UHD BD would benefit other divisions of Sony, I do think that Sony Interactive Entertainment is in a position to push back if that support would negatively affect their bottom line.

I agree.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Well the question is if the person doesn't care about either, why did he/she buy a 4K TV to begin with? There are still plenty of 1080p TVs out there at this point, so it's not like they had no choice.

In any case, these are really two separate markets with different desires - although there's definitely some overlap.

Hardcore gamers are always seeking out visual improvements to their gaming experience, but also framerate/performance improvements. Maybe to them 1080p is good enough for movies - it certainly looks pretty damned good anyway. I know hardcore gamers who are perfectly happy with the reduced quality of Netflix for movies but are upgrading their PCs and consoles all the time to get the best visual and performance improvement.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I'm sure this definitely plays a factor.

Sony's been in financial troubles for years now and are still trying to dig themselves out. They probably don't want to risk hurting one of the few divisions that's actually making them money.

I remember a time when you would go to a store and see half the electronics would be a Sony brand. Now companies like Samsung and LG are eating their lunch big time and relegated Sony products to a much smaller portion of space.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yes this is my recollection as well. At the time the PS3 came out, the only other players available were the shitty launch Samsung player and the insanely expensive tank Sony player ($1K). I remember because I wanted to get Blu-ray in November of 2006 and PS3's were hard to get at the time, so I bought the Sony tank. Within a year it was showing its limitations vs. the PS3 for Blu-ray. Anyone I knew or read about who wanted Blu-ray was getting a PS3 back then.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Perhaps Sony felt a little burned by the losses from using the PS3 as a Trojan Horse and that's partly why they're not including it. IIRC, they had to raise the price and delay the launch, both of which helped lead to the Xbox overtaking it in sales. That would have been fine, since perhaps the xbox might have done so anyway, who knows, but I think frankly Sony is very disappointed with Blu-ray adoption and expected it to completely take over DVD. So it's understandable the pessimism they may have about UHD BD and it not being worth the bother.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

You mean, like $15 bucks more (the price difference in drives)?

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yes. If the mandate is "don't sell at a loss" or "lose no more than $xx per console", $15 can make a real difference.

Sony could pass along the cost, but people will look at a $414.99 console differently than a $399.99 one.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yes the common thought was they sacrificed the console war for the format war. But then Microsoft shot themselves about 10 times in the foot with the X1 and allowed Sony to win the next-gen console war.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Meh, they probably could've saved $15 by going with a 500GB drive instead of a 1TB one, at least in the base model. It was really a choice of priorities, and Sony decided that they didn't need UHD Blu-ray as a feature to sell their PS4 Pro, which to me is a mistake. The 1TB drive is eventually going to be considered "too small," and people will swap it out to get more space, but people can't swap out the optical drive and gain UHD Blu-ray playback.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

So does she do those streaming rentals when she wants to watch new movies, or does she only watch whatever Netflix/Amazon/etc. already have?

It's weird, there was such a backlash from the gaming community over going media-less for games, but not for movies? Do that many people trade in stuff at GameStop? Is it just because movies are easier to pirate or something? I don't get the disparity.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think Sony announcing today that for Taxi Driver's 40th Anniversary they are giving it a theatrical release and did a 4K restoration on it, but are only releasing it in standard Blu but not UHD, speaks volumes...

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think it's basically whatever Netflix offers as well as the Shomi/CraveTV (whichever one she gets free) and maybe even another streaming service. I don't think she streams new rentals - but I'm sure if there were something she couldn't wait for, she'd do that. The key is there's always something to watch while those new releases filter down to those streaming services. To alot of people, there's no urgency to watch a particular movie.

One major thing I didn't expand on was how convenient streaming is for her young kids. So simple to navigate the Netflix app on their SmartTV. Plus their tastes/moods change so often that they can switch between movies/shows numerous times without it being a pain. The kids often misplace discs, which would make it a hassle to constantly look for them... usually finding them dirty or scratched. It's not hard to imagine how frustrating that can be with a collection of 100+ movies - not to mention costly.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

^ That's why parents need to teach their kids RESPONSIBILITY and how to properly take care of things! I had a lot of records when I was a kid and I quickly learned those got scratched easily. Instead of trashing them all and forcing my parents to replace them (or me to go without them) I figured out how to properly handle them! Just a first step in common sense.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The 2013 release was already based on the 4K restoration. This 40th anniversary will be using the same master and probably will be the same encode so the only difference will be added extras.

This movie was not graded for HDR so it's no surprise that it's not getting released on UHD. It's been available for years on the 4k Sony download site, but like most of the 4K movies there, there's not much of a visual difference. When you strip everything but resolution upgrade from the UHD feature set, you're not going to see a big difference. Even on a projector. UHD BD will be mainly new release and recent catalog. They might release it later on UHD though.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

You're preaching to the choir. I was the same way when I was a kid... had to always clean up after myself, put things away when I'm done with them, etc.
It seems to be different nowadays. I see it often - kids are slobs and aren't given responsibilities/chores around the house.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

And I guess that's the point I was trying to make. If that's our view of UHD, then I personally am less likely to bother. I want Taxi Driver, not San Andreas...

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

You do, but the movies that will sell are the new ones, not the classics. The new ones are filmed mostly in HD and 4K. And what better way to say "watch this new Marvel movie at home in 4K". That sells. Not older titles.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The new movies sales are perhaps 70% of the revenue on Blu-ray. With UHD it will be even more a new release format.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think an argument can be made though that studios need to appeal to the early adopters first in order for the format to then reach a wider audience, and a catalog title like Taxi Driver would have been just such an opportunity to do that...

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Well...we have news for you...

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The player that may come out in 2017? But definitely not the system that is coming out in November of this year. That SCREAMS of a lack of confidence in UHD.

Of course it does. Everyone else sees it, why can't you?

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

A corporation's "confidence" is amorphous. We can talk about what they do. We can talk about what they choose not to do. We can talk about trends: support ramping up, support winding down, etc. We can compare how Sony is supporting this format vs. how they've treated other formats in the past. Extrapolating how a corporation feels about a product, on the other hand -- particularly when taking certain things into account and completely disregarding other very obvious elements -- is a masturbatory waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

I'll spell it out this way. If you want to talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray -- and that goes for the good and the bad -- your presence here is welcome. If you're coming here to just sneer, we'll have to dust off the Format War rules from a decade ago.

No, it does not inherently mean that. Sony could very well have some degree of enthusiasm for the format but still not be able to make the numbers work for the PS4 Pro. There is absolutely, undeniably support from Sony right now and absolutely, undeniably support from Sony coming in the future.

Is that incontrovertible proof of a lack of confidence. No. Is that incontrovertible proof of confidence? No. So, forget the confidence argument and find something of substance to talk about instead.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Which is exactly what you are doing. It is blatantly obvious to many people in this thread that the gaming arm of Sony has little interest/confidence in UHD at the moment. Couple that with the fact that Sony is not going to have a UHD player on the market until at the earliest, sometime time in late 2017 possibly, and it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to see the writing on the wall.
Why are you burying your head so firmly in the sand on this?

So, because my opinion differs from yours, you threaten me with some sort of mod punishment? How very "mod"ly of you.