DVD Talk Forum - Star Wars

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Originally Posted by hdnmickey (Post 13018917)

This rumor could end up being true AND you still will regret it. A release of the OOT could still have some alterations that aren't the type people have rallied against Lucas for doing. Things like the effects of laser blasts on humans, light saber colors/effects, and other very minor changes that are not Han shooting first, Jaba in ANW, the force ghosts, etc. And then of course there is always the possibility the color timing will be different or any other number of things that don't have to do with the Lucas SE changes.

I feel like most people could probably live with the more minor changes/issues that aren't editorial. It's not like the OOT DVDs were perfect in laser blasts, light saber colors/effects, color timing, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13018759)

To be fair, the Song of the South has really strong racial undertones tied to it, as do parts of Fantasia. Disney has at least looked into ways into releasing Song of the South in a socially responsible way, although they haven't ever settled on one.

Star Wars, on the other hand, isn't having the original "suppressed" due to any racial or social issues, but simply because its creator and long-time owner preferred the revised versions he made.

OK, then, look at the animated movies that Disney has either drastically recolored (Pinocchio) or replaced portions of the original animation with digital substitutes (Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King).

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13018845)

That's a pretty strong "if." The existing agreement is pretty strongly in Fox's favor, and the unaltered versions are pretty good leverage. And while releasing the unaltered versions during the 40th Anniversary of the first film is nice, I'm not sure it's enough of a marketing boost to justify basically just handing them over to Fox.

Are the terms of the arrangement known? I find it hard to believe that Lucas was making chump change by putting them out through Fox all these years, but I'm not privy to those details either.

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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni (Post 13018838)

If that wrangling was going on, then yes it would be more complex. However, if, in order to get them out this year, Disney was willing to let Fox distribute them under the original agreement, it would be very simple.

MAYBE even letting Fox distribute them now under the existing agreement is part of an agreement to get the rights to Episode IV back to Disney (ie, we'll let you distribute the unaltered OT for a few years and make a bunch of money, but ANH reverts to us with the rest of the films in 2020. Otherwise we'll sit on them until then, and you'll only make money from ANH).

You guys aren't looking at the bigger picture. If Disney comes knocking on Fox's door asking to strike a deal on Star Wars, Fox will undoubtedly try to leverage that into negotiations over other properties of mutual interest as well. Like, for example, using Marvel's MCU characters in X-Men movies.

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Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13018944)

While I would prefer the MCU and X-films to remain in separate universes, some limited interaction (like the Marvel Comics of the 80s) wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I'd just like to see the Fantastic Four end up in the MCU. If it means letting Fox use some MCU characters in their X-films, so be it.

It's kind of a situation where Disney is holding most of the cards, but Fox has two big ones that Disney would probably like to get their hands on, and they'll have to give up a lot to get both of them. Fox striking a deal with Disney like Sony did with Spider-Man would be mutually beneficial to both parties, but Fox may be too proud to bite.

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Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13018940)

I would, ideally, like to see the original trilogy preserved in its original theatrical versions.

I would also be fine with SE versions of the OT as part of the greater "saga" with cleaned-up special effects and the like as long as they remove all of the stupid shit like the added screams, Han shooting first, etc. Stuff like the Jabba scene in ANH, "Jedi Rocks" and Hayden at the end of ROTJ, I'm ambivalent about, but I could live with them as long as the original version is available in good quality.

Hell, I wouldn't even object to some new scenes being put in the OT like a scene on Alderaan with Bail Organa in ANH, or Vader's castle or the Emperor's throne room in any of the movies as long as they could be logically worked into the story. Things that expand the movies are better than crap like "Jedi Rocks" or Jabba that add nothing. But the original versions of the movies need to be available.

Fucking fuck. A pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist. I fucking knew this was too good to be true.

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Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 (Post 13018982)

Fucking fuck. A pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist. I fucking knew this was too good to be true.

Snake lives on..

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Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13018940)

Color timing issues are always controversial, since it's hard to know what is the "correct" color timing, and comparisons are typically done with previous home video releases, which could've been wrong themselves.

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Rec...tures/id/15617

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Pinocchio (1940): Color timing issues are the concern in the digital restorations and a negative impact on lighting depth. There IS a chance the restoration is correct. The problem is a lot of people feel that it is accurate to the cells but not how the animators expected it to look once transferred to film.

As for "digital substitutes," I'm not sure about the Lion King, but I know for Beauty and the Beast the issue was that they put 3 versions on one disc, including one that was "enhanced" and expanded with a new song, and some the "enhanced" footage got into the "original theatrical version. But this seems more like an issue with the authoring, and incorrectly branching and/or using alternate angles for the different versions.

In other words, for both of these issues, at worst you can say the issue was incompetence. But it's still not the same as Star Wars, as nobody at Disney was actively preventing the original versions from being released.

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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni (Post 13018941)

Are the terms of the arrangement [between Fox and Lucasfilm] known? I find it hard to believe that Lucas was making chump change by putting them out through Fox all these years, but I'm not privy to those details either.

Specifics aren't known, but distributors typically get between 10%-50% of the gross, with the average being 30%.

Whatever the deal, it was favorable to Lucasfilm, which was a (relatively) small studio that couldn't distribute the films on its own. The distributor not only handles manufacturing and distribution, but also can handle promotion of the film. The size of the cut depends a lot on how much work the distributor is putting in.

https://stephenfollows.com/average-f...ribution-fees/
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.c...tribution1.htm
http://www.fictionvillemedia.com/fil...ou-make-a-deal

The thing is that now that Lucasfilm is with Disney, Disney is a distributor itself, so Disney isn't going to be so willing to hand over a cut of the gross to another distributor, when they could do it all in-house and keep the entire gross to themselves. It's not a bad deal, but it's not as good as if, say, Disney just waits until the rights to the 2nd-6th films revert back to them automatically, and it may be in Disney's interest to negotiate for the distribution rights to the first film too.

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Originally Posted by milo bloom (Post 13018682)

I still find that hard to understand. When Disney bought Lucasfilm, Day 1 should have been to get the new movies started but Day 2 should have been "somebody hunt down the original versions and start cleaning them up".

Why is this so hard to get done?

Why should they? The cost of the restoration after Lucas hacked the negatives into oblivion is proabaly not impossible for Disney to do, but the money and effort is probably in no way proportional to the money they'd get from the 17 OOT fans who are interested.

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Originally Posted by milo bloom (Post 13018706)

:hairpull:

:hairpull:

:hairpull:

:hairpull:

Spoiler:

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13018718)

I don't know about Reddit, and while I'm sure some naysayers are probably overzealous in their cynicism

I'm right here dude ;).

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Finally, imagine the outcry that would happen if people learned that Disney had performed 4K scans and remasters of the original versions and then were simply sitting on them until the proper release window presents itself. At least right now there's the mental buffer of "oh, the work hasn't been done yet." If 4K masters existed but weren't being released, fans would be foaming at the mouth, and release rumors would be popping up every other week.

Yeah, good or bad, at least now we have a concrete answer.

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Originally Posted by stingermck (Post 13018725)

Batman 66 made it to video. Anything is possible :lol:

With lossy audio, but yeah. I've learned not to think anything is possible when it comes to Star Wars. It's special, magical outlier where OOT fans always draw the short straw.

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13018740)

The sticking point is whether it makes sense to release a specific version of the first 3 films, and how and when.

I think this is sufficient evidence that it doesn't make much sense. The 40th anniversary wasn't our last chance, but the biggest one, and this is a big blow to the idea Disney have plans or interst

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Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13018744)

Because Disney doesn't care. They bought Lucasfilm for the franchise IP rights so that they could churn out tons and tons of new Star Wars content every year. The older movies are, in Disney's mind, already played out. The return on investment for another re-release would probably not recoup the expenditure of a major restoration effort.

There's an echo in here ;).

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Keep in mind also that Disney has just as bad or worse a track record for altering, censoring and suppressing its old movies as Lucasfilm does. Song of the South will never see the light of day again, nor will the original version of Fantasia.

While true, these are also very sensitive racial issues. I don't know any Ewoks offended by their depiction in film.

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13018759)

True, although not Fantasia. But you're right, this is slightly different becasue of the racial issues. Yes, I'm sure Disney are worried about their public image, but there is also a genuine social responsibility behind a film with such overtones, as you mentioned.

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Star Wars, on the other hand, isn't having the original "suppressed" due to any racial or social issues, but simply because its creator and long-time owner preferred the revised versions he made.

Which wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't hacked up the negatives to do it then specifically tried to suppress them. Whatever feelings one holds about the Star Wars situation, it's pretty unique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni (Post 13018838)

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, as they say...

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13018845)

Yes, that's a more plausible arrangement, and not as simple as what you originally proposed.

In simplest terms, doesn't it mean multibilliondollar corporations would have to come to an agreement? Possible, but probably complex and unlikely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBoyd (Post 13018875)

I did that last year and made a couple hundred. Fine with me after having some copies from other sources. I don't even know if I will bother buying Blu-rays if the originals come out again. Maybe just do iTunes.

Jesus, the GOUT is worth that much?! I'd personally pay damn near any price withing reason for the OOT, but I'm an outlier.

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Originally Posted by hdnmickey (Post 13018917)

Well, Lucas has made so damn many tweaks over the years that even before the SEs, what's "original" is debatable.

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13018927)

Yeah, but they were mastered from laserdiscs.

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Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13018940)

Weren't the latter two mostly stupidity, eg "We forgot to put the originals on there?"

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Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13018944)

https://media.giphy.com/media/7gKvtHG3KWybu/giphy.gif

The truth doesn't hurt. It's torture :lol:.

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Originally Posted by Josh-da-man (Post 13018954)

I would also be fine with SE versions of the OT as part of the greater "saga" with cleaned-up special effects and the like as long as they remove all of the stupid shit like the added screams, Han shooting first, etc. Stuff like the Jabba scene in ANH, "Jedi Rocks" and Hayden at the end of ROTJ, I'm ambivalent about, but I could live with them as long as the original version is available in good quality.

I'm on the "slippery slope" side here. Don't don it halfway. Fix it, or don't. Don't do things in half measures. What I've always thought was if they were going to release the originals, they'd put them in a giant box.

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Originally Posted by DaveyJoe (Post 13019024)

Snake lives on..

Why did they ban him? And sorry, the 40th was just pretty much the last chance we had. You might say "our only hope."

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13019027)

Well, it's more controversial than ever in the Digital Intermediate age.

Spoiler:

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That's what I heard too. Basically, just stupid foul-ups that Disney didn't feel like correcting.

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The thing is that now that Lucasfilm is with Disney, Disney is a distributor itself, so Disney isn't going to be so willing to hand over a cut of the gross to another distributor, when they could do it all in-house and keep the entire gross to themselves. It's not a bad deal, but it's not as good as if, say, Disney just waits until the rights to the 2nd-6th films revert back to them automatically, and it may be in Disney's interest to negotiate for the distribution rights to the first film too.

Either way, it seems academic at this point. At best, we're waiting until 2020. If I'm still alive then, and if Blu-ray is still around.

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Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 (Post 13019264)

The sales of, and the current demand for, the LE DVDs that included the non-anamoorphic OOT version pretty clearly shows a demand.

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Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 (Post 13019264)

I think this is sufficient evidence that it doesn't make much sense. The 40th anniversary wasn't our last chance, but the biggest one...

No, the biggest chance of a release of them is after the rights to most of the films revert back to Disney. I said as much years ago:

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 11597714)

It's not that Fox has distribution rights, but those distribution rights mean they get a significant chunk of the revenue earned by any such releases. Fox owns distribution rights for Star Wars in perpetuity, but only has the rights to the other films until 2020. Disney could restore and release the original versions now and let Fox take a cut of all 3 films, or they could wait until 2020 when the distribution rights to ESB and ROTJ revert back to them and they get all the revenue from those two titles. Disney may also be working behind the scenes right now to work out some deal regarding Star Wars, like they did with Paramount with The Avengers.

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Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 (Post 13019264)

True, although not Fantasia.

I guess you don't know about Sunflower, the black centaur that was cut out due to being a racist caricature.
https://thesocietypages.org/socimage...neys-fantasia/
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Sunflower

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Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 (Post 13019264)

In simplest terms, doesn't it mean multibilliondollar corporations would have to come to an agreement? Possible, but probably complex and unlikely.

Disney made a deal with Paramount for The Avengers:
http://deadline.com/2013/05/toldja-p...engers-507337/

They also made a deal with Paramount for Indiana Jones.
http://variety.com/2013/film/news/di...nt-1200927216/

Disney even made a deal with NBC/Universal for Oswald the Lucky Rabbit:
https://ohmy.disney.com/insider/2016...-lucky-rabbit/

Disney actually seems pretty open to making deals to secure full rights to its properties.

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Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 (Post 13019264)

Yeah, but they were mastered from laserdiscs.

Which is kinda my point. People dealt with the issues with that release because it was the OOT. An HD release of the OOT doesn't have to be "perfect" to see a lot of demand.

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Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 (Post 13019264)

At best, we're waiting until 2020. If I'm still alive then, and if Blu-ray is still around.

DVD is 20 years old and "still around," most of my Blu-ray purchases include it as a disc. Blu-ray is only about half that age. And then, it's possible they'll make a UHD Blu-ray release instead.

This should be a surprise to no one, but Pablo Hidalgo has confirmed that there are NO plans for a release of the original 77 version:

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2017...-and-more.html

Oh well, I'm still selling my 2006 DVD's. Even if a re-release isn't eminent, there are better quality versions of the OOT available.

Well damn. Guess I might seek out the Harmy versions after all.

Pablo seems to be saying it's up to George to release the original versions but he sold Lucasfilm. He does not own it anymore. Why does there seem to be so much contempt and disdain towards the Star Wars community from the people in charge? I don't give a shit about the theme parks or the celebrations or even the toys any more for that matter- I just want a good, clean version of the goddamned movies that made Lucas a goddamned billionaire and changed the face of movie making for-goddamnned-ever.

What is so goddamned hard about that?

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Originally Posted by milo bloom (Post 13019415)

Well, from Pablo Hidalgo's posts, it doesn't seem to be about contempt for the audience, but respect for the creator of the films that's holding them back. If true, we may have to wait for Lucas to croak before getting the original edits.

Alternately, the rumor was that the LE DVDs with the laserdisc masters only came to be because some of the people at Lucasfilm pestered him about releasing some version of the original edits. Maybe since Lucasfilm was sold, nobody has asked George, or pestered him enough about it, just letting his previous wishes stand.

Or maybe the "one person" is someone else, like Bob Iger. Or, since Pablo Hidalgo says that it's "as far as he knows," maybe he doesn't know the full reasoning for why they haven't been released yet. Sure he works at Lucasfilm, but I doubt he's involved with the legal negotiations with Fox, for example.

Just when I get a little bit of hope, a little optimism, you sons a bitches gotta come in here and ruin it for me! :sad:

Anyone following Project4k77? Are they almost done?

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Originally Posted by milo bloom (Post 13019415)

I don't give a shit about the theme parks or the celebrations or even the toys any more for that matter- I just want a good, clean version of the goddamned movies that made Lucas a goddamned billionaire and changed the face of movie making for-goddamnned-ever.

What is so goddamned hard about that?

It is mind boggling that the Originals haven't been released (other then the shitty 2006 versions) on DVD and BluRay as it is approaching 20 years since the digital format started. I will always say if only DVD had hit the market a few years earlier, we would have never had to go though this bullshit. The last time they were released on VHS was 1994, and if DVD had been the dominant format at the time, we would have gotten an Anamorphic Release of them because the SE were still a few years away. The worst is that the OT DVD's didn't hit til 2004 and BluRays in 2011, so it gave Lucas 2 more opportunities to fuck with the movies even more as the insertion of Hayden Force Ghost wasn't in the 1997 SE. Heck, I would take those versions on DVD at this point as that is the one SE change that I hate with a passion.

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Originally Posted by Jay G. (Post 13019027)

I'm not sure why you assume this was an error and not a deliberate decision to only use the revised animation.

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Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13020703)

I'm not sure why you assume this was an error and not a deliberate decision to only use the revised animation.

Because they included three separate cuts of the film, and specifically labeled one "Original Theatrical version," and is, for the most part, accurate to that, even when the Special Edition version has other, more substantial changes.

From one review of the Blu-ray:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/71295...rsary-edition/

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...there's a slight change to the theatrical version that appears to be the result of a small branching error: near the end of "Something There", a short dialogue between Mrs. Potts and Chip ("I'll tell you when you're older") uses animation from the Special Edition instead of the original shot, which ends a half-second or so too early and feels like a rough edit. I doubt this small issue will be addressed or rectified by the studio...but if there's ever some sort of replacement program, I'll be sure to post more information here.

Not to mention that the Blu-ray put back the Beast's stutter that was accidentally "fixed."
http://animatedviews.com/2010/beauty...amond-edition/

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Happily, Beauty’s sound is an area that provokes much less criticism, even if the previous DVD did delete a line of dialogue from the Beast that was among one of the reasons that I loved the movie. A stutter from Robbie Benson’s recordings was left intact in the final animation, and it was this attention to rounding out a character that made Beauty something special. Who would intentionally leave a stutter in an animated film? Wow, I thought…that’s a really good pairing of vocal and animation performance. Except that someone at Disney thought it was a mistake, and deleted the portion of audio from the previous DVD – but hurrah!…it’s been reinstated here, so all is once again well in the world.

From the same review, the Blu-ray actually restored most of the theatrical version, where the previous DVD used much more SE material for the "theatrical" cut:

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When the film debuted on DVD.. That disc also offered the three different editions of the movie, but space demanded that, post the Human Again sequence, the rest of the movie, either in theatrical or special edition form, basically played the cleaned up version...

Thankfully, we get a bit of a hybrid here that at least more closely echoes the theatrical cut, even if the branching offers a hideous cut between the end of Something There and the Beast being washed for his night with Belle... But now, instead of the cleaned up castle, the film does revert to how things looks originally, even if there are a few other tweaks, though the original end credit scroll has been inserted, with a bit of aged gateweave, as opposed to the “flat” credits.

So Disney has taken steps to restore and present as much of the original theatrical cut as they can.

Edit: here's some screencaps of the differences between the Beauty and the Beast versions:
http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=168768

Wasn't Bob Iger supposed to leave Disney this year?

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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni (Post 13018521)

This may be a gamble, but I just put my 2006 DVD set on ebay before it becomes worthless, lol.

I put mine on ebay after I burned the Despecialized editions to Blu-Ray and got $170 for them. Now I have almost $200 I didn't have before AND superior versions of the films. Works for me.

Wow, $170 for used DVDs? I remember when they were on sale for $11 each.

What brand BD-Rs you use? I just use flash drives. :)

I'd love to get the despecialized versions and the silver screen edition, but I don't have a bluray burner. I saw someone sell them (for a ridiculous amount) on ioffer but that didn't include the silver screen edition.