Doctorossi

It's not a charity, Josh; it's home video. People are very particular about this stuff and, being the purchasers of these consumer goods, have every right to be. You keep going on about how the CIHers "can't" watch their discs, but all they have to do is move past your personal dogma and watch their 16:9-formatted discs on a 16:9-capable screen. Yes, it would be lovely for them if they could make it work on a wider screen 100% of the time, but that's not what Blu-ray was designed to do.

Lobbying for a better product? Great.

Complaining because the current product doesn't do something it was never promised to? Not so much.

Josh Z

This is the same argument made by black bar haters who want all movies cropped to fill their screens. Do you advocate that as well? There is absolutely no difference between the two arguments.

There is no requirement in the Blu-ray spec that movies fill all of the pixels in the 16:9 video signal. We already letterbox 2.35:1 movies to preserve their OAR. All we're asking is to also maintain Original Subtitle Placement as part of that. Subtitles are never projected below the screen in movie theaters. Sutitles are part of the movie and belong inside the movie image, where they can be viewed by 100% of viewers with 100% of displays. That includes you.

RyoHazuki

OAR and "Original Subtitle Placement Area" are apples and oranges.

rdclark

Well it's not hard for me, because even though I don't have a CIH display I still prefer the subs to be inside the frame.

Three reasons: 1) It's how they were in the theater; 2) they're easier to read because they require less eye movement; 3) constantly shifting between focusing on high-contrast white- or yellow-on-black captions and then on the cinematic image compromises the eye's perception of both. That's why we put backlights behind our screens. and control the lighting in the room.

I respect that some people might prefer having subs in the black bars, but as has been pointed out that's not an available choice. You can have *some* of the titles in the black bar on 2.35 films, but that's the best you can ever do. There will always be titles in the picture on any BD you watch with subtitles. Period.

So it's just pigheaded to insist that Option 1 is selfish and a matter of opinion. "Put all of the subtitles in the black bars" is not an available choice, now or ever. Only someone acting out of spite would choose anything but #1.

DthRdrX

Subs should be inside the picture.

This topic only makes me wish that they had figured out a way, or even attempted, to provide full 1080p regardless of aspect ratio. Let the Blu-ray player resize the content to the display's native resolution. Wouldn't that be neat?

RocShemp

Didn't DVD have a never used 20:9 aspect ratio option? I'm amazed something similar wasn't created (and actually used) for BD.

Drexl

I don't know about that, but there was an automatic pan and scan option. It was rarely, if ever, used due to difficulty in authoring for it and quality issues from the zooming. Menus would sometimes use it, however.

There was some talk from CIH owners that there should be an anamorphic option for BD that would squeeze the 2.40:1 image into the 16:9 frame. However, since it wasn't included in the specs, there was no provision built into players to downconvert the image for "normal" displays (unlike DVD).

Well, technically they could still do it, by including a "distorted" version on a separate disc. People would just have to be warned that it will show up vertically stretched on a 16:9 display. Then again, with all the horizontally stretched images I see on widescreen sets, maybe some people wouldn't mind.

syncguy

Just seen this discussion and registered to give my thoughts. I honestly and sincerely believe that when subs are placed on blackbars the movie is tailored to a particular display type and once technology is evolved everyone will be in trouble. This has happened in the past and will happen in the future. This is a real risk for everyone to consider before voting.

I am copying one of my posts from another forum:

We are living in a technology-era where the technology is changing in speed of light - we really cannot equate this technology-era to change of technology during last fifty years. Some may not like that, however, it looks like the technology change is becoming a way of life.

16x9 and 2.35:1 aspects are the future. There are many thousands of movie theaters around the world catering for 2.35:1 aspect and that glorious scope aspect will surely continue at least for another fifty years. 2.35:1 aspect is protected by many billions of dollars worth investment around the world. Also, I believe the desire of people to see images in wide panoramic view is a human instinct rather than a technology direction.

The display technology is evolving. The blu-rays made today need to be compatible with the evolving technology. Today people keep more than one set in a household. Future cannot be any different to that. Therefore, I believe, many people will have multiple TVs catering for major aspects of the future, i.e. 16x9 wide screen and 21x9 super-wide screen (when price is right in few years time).

Of course super-wide (21:9) TVs will not be the norm in 6 months. It could take few years for it to be popular. When it become popular (and cheap), if anyone chooses to get one of these sets, I don't think they will be happy to double dip just to read subtitles (since these sets don’t have blackbars). You or one of your close families may choose to get a 21:9 super-wide LCD TV for movies as a secondary display. In any of above cases, your black-bar subtitled blu-rays will be obsolete overnight if you want to read subs on such a new display.

This is a real possibility that applies to everyone - please consider.

Subs within the picture is universal and fits all displays and lifestyles provided the subs are correctly scaled so that they nicely integrates with the picture. This is the way that the subs were shown in the theaters for so many decades. There is no place for large, ugly and electronic-like blackbar SD/DVD subs in a HD/blu-ray world. It needs to be nice slim-line well integrated HD subs within the blu-ray image.

The content produced today should be compatible with current and future display technologies – it shall not be limited to a particular display technology. In order to achieve this, the subs need to be within the picture (if it cannot be moved by the user).

One classic example is DVD blackbar subs authored many years ago aiming for 4x3 displays. These subs cannot be read in current 16x9 displays since part of 4x3 (wider) blackbar is not displayed on 16x9 sets. Unfortunately this is repeated again with blu-ray blackbar subs. The future (and current) 2.35:1 (or 21x9) displays cannot display 16x9 blackbar subs.

I am confident that almost everyone will be frustrated in about five years time if non-moveable subtitles are placed on the black bars. Please consider and vote for the option one to ensure universal compatibility and avoid potential future problems to yourself, your family and others.

Drexl

Frankly, I don't see 2.35:1 becoming the dominant display ratio. For that to happen, television would have to embrace it, and that would probably take a long time. I don't think it would work as well as 16:9 for things like sports and the news.

But, nonetheless, the subtitles should be in the image.

syncguy

People are agile to technology change these days. They will embrace a new technology at any time if price is right. Multiple TV sets in a household is the norm today. Future cannot be any different. I cannot imagine one of those sets not be a 21x9 (2.35:1) super-wide screen TV (once the price is right). Also should account for the millions of blackbar-haters/zoomers living around the world. They will surely jump on 21:9 sets. I have no doubt that all will join the 21:9 bandwagon once price is right.

RocShemp

Like Drexl said, TV producers would have to embrace such a change. I see 2.33:1 (21:9) working for projectors when watching movies but not catching on for regular TV. TV content wouldn't translate too well to 2.33:1. Sports for instance would look cramped. The height of 1.78:1 would make for compositions better suited to baseball and football games. Same with basketball, hockey, etc.

It was a big deal to get TV news and late night TV shows to broadcast in 1.78:1 so I doubt they'd be quick to embrace the added set changes needed to compose for 2.33:1. And black bar haters would still fuss when they see pillar boxes on anything under 2.33:1. Can you imagin people zooming in 1.33:1 images to 2.33:1? Cropping such images to 1.78:1 already looks bad, doing so to 2.33:1 will be even worse.

syncguy

Amount of 4x3 material watched will be reduced exponentially from now on. In about five years, 95% content watched on a regular basis will be 16x9 and 21x9. Therefore, I cannot see any issue with 4x3 content.

There is no need for the TV networks to broadcast in 21x9. If price is right, it will be an easy sell for the salesman once a scope movie is demonstrated with and without blackbars. People will jump on it as the second set. Almost always there is a spare set in a household. That will be 21:9 in about five years time.

So please consider future proofing subtitled blu-rays by placing slim-line, well integrated HD subs within the picture.