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-   -   The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/556113-criterion-collection-4k-blu-ray-discussion-release-thread.html)

rocket1312 04-15-21 10:57 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Yeah, uh, Wong Kar Wai is not Korean.

Coral 04-16-21 10:06 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Took long enough to release The Mirror. Fantastic film that has one of my favorite shots in cinema.

Wonder if The Sacrifice is in their plans.

dex14 04-16-21 11:23 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by Coral (Post 13921251)
Took long enough to release The Mirror. Fantastic film that has one of my favorite shots in cinema.

Wonder if The Sacrifice is in their plans.

Kino put out The Sacrifice.

The Sacrifice - 4K Restoration - Special Edition [Blu-ray]

Josh Z 04-16-21 01:10 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by OldBoy (Post 13920980)
This WKW set might be my favorite multi-movie Special Edition set ever. I just saw Fallen Angels and In the Mood for Love. Not only did they look so good and sound incredible with excellent looking subs as well, but the movies are fucking great and the 1 extra I saw so far was so thoroughly enjoyable (part of one of the 3? docs on the making of pics).

You guys are really missing out if you’re so fucking hung up on this stupid color alteration of movies or whatever, that, again, was approved by WKW.

Now just imagine how much even better they could be if they were presented properly.

E Unit 04-16-21 01:15 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Exactly.

dex14 04-16-21 02:34 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13921360)
Now just imagine how much even better they could be if they were presented properly.

Or if they were Korean. :sarcasm:

Coral 04-16-21 07:22 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by dex14 (Post 13921296)
Kino put out The Sacrifice.

The Sacrifice - 4K Restoration - Special Edition [Blu-ray] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BF25TBB...CP4BS6ENN36RJP

Oh nice... didn't know that.

OldBoy 04-16-21 07:23 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 13921360)
Now just imagine how much even better they could be if they were presented properly.

how would I know any different? Or care? It’s a movie with actors that tell an amazing story. I don’t care what color it is tinted or not tinted. I just like the movie. Cinematography I like, but color of film, I just take as directors preference, give it a second thought and just watch.

DaveyJoe 04-16-21 07:37 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by OldBoy (Post 13921564)
how would I know any different? Or care?

You don't have to care, I think it's great that you're enjoying the films. But a lot of us grew to love the films as they were originally intended to be seen. So maybe try to understand why we're not interested in the revisionist versions of the films?

OldBoy 04-16-21 09:47 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Ok. That’s fine. I’m not attacking anyone. I’m giving my opinion. I’m the one kinda being attacked. I’m just saying these are amazing films told in such unique ways by this one director and that it has become a favorite set of mine. And this revisionist version, as you call it, is, actually, Wong’s revision. Das all. Everyone has their opinions and maybe if I ever cared to see these first versions, I would think different, but not really seeking or looking to see these movies again any time soon given I’m currently in the midst.

rocket1312 04-17-21 06:41 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by OldBoy (Post 13921615)
Ok. That’s fine. I’m not attacking anyone. I’m giving my opinion. I’m the one kinda being attacked. I’m just saying these are amazing films told in such unique ways by this one director and that it has become a favorite set of mine. And this revisionist version, as you call it, is, actually, Wong’s revision. Das all. Everyone has their opinions and maybe if I ever cared to see these first versions, I would think different, but not really seeking or looking to see these movies again any time soon given I’m currently in the midst.

You've been around here long enough to understand the director's "vision" isn't always what it's cracked up to be.

But it's cool you like the movies. We all like the movies. That's why we're so down on the set. It doesn't help that Wong's messaging (as well as Criterion and a lot of the online media) regarding the changes has been both condescending and a bit obfuscating. It just makes me care less.

clckworang 04-17-21 11:39 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Has Christopher Doyle made any comments about this revisionism? I think he was the cinematographer on all but one of the films in the set. That collaboration was integral to the success of these films, and I don't think it would be a stretch to say he's considered one of the greats. At the very least, he was hugely influential. There are more people who work on a film than just the director, and these alterations feel like a bit of a slap on Doyle's work.

As much as I love the movies, I just am not sure I can pull the trigger on this set for those reasons. But I'm happy that OldBoy is filled with his usual hyperboles in favor of the set.

Brian T 04-17-21 03:28 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by clckworang (Post 13921752)
Has Christopher Doyle made any comments about this revisionism?

His absence from the set – other than his credits remaining on the films themselves – is telling. I'm curious to hear his thoughts some day, as his contributions have always been considered crucial, and Wong's tinkering undoes a lot of meticulous work. I'm likewise not interested in this set unless its super-cheap. For those who never bothered with the films before or had no interest – which seems to be Oldboy's position – to suddenly be enraptured with them is hardly surprising. Obviously they're still great stories, and their successful impact on any individual inevitably comes down to watching them at the right age, or the right time in one's life. I'm just thankful I got to do that when they were all relatively new and not part of some retrofitted 'cinematic universe'.

And yet, if someone were to ask me to recommend quintessential Hong Kong films for them to dive into, WKW would hardly be my first choice at all. His works are so anomalous to popular Hong Kong cinema that virtually none of them ever made money there, even as they earned Wong his 'auteur' status on the international stage. His works since 2046 have been a pretty mixed bag of sporadic features, short films and commercials, so it's not surprising he'd want to ret-con his original run of gems for the long term. However, I don't buy for a second his claim that these new versions were actually how he intended them to be back then, if only it weren't for the pesky technology, distributors, whatever. Virtually all of the revisions he says couldn't have been done back then, probably could've been done back then. Having the films on Criterion, though – and regardless of what's been done to them – means a LOT of people will be discovering him for the first time and hopefully getting lost in the visuals and stories regardless. I'll still wish that the original versions of each film could've likewise been included on the discs, especially from a company like Criterion that prides itself on 'preservation' of important films and has a pretty good track record of not letting revisionism run wild (this set and HEAVEN'S GATE notwithstanding, which probably indicates they'll be more open to it in the future).

rocket1312 04-17-21 04:16 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
The only film in the set that Wong claims is "how he would have done it back then if only..." is Fallen Angels and it's aspect ratio/anamorphic stretch/whatever.

His argument for the changes on the rest are the exact opposite. He says (and I'm paraphrasing, but it's not hard to find his statement) that he's different than when he made them originally and that you can't go back. Oh, and the negatives for Happy Together were damaged in a fire so certain sections had to be edited. Why alternate sources couldn't be used, I have no idea.

*Edit* re-reading the statement, I see he mentions restoring then to how he originally envisioned them, which makes no sense when he then goes on to talk about how he's different now, so the movies can't be the same. Like I mentioned a few posts up, much obfuscation is afoot.

dex14 04-19-21 10:48 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by clckworang (Post 13921752)
Has Christopher Doyle made any comments about this revisionism? I think he was the cinematographer on all but one of the films in the set. That collaboration was integral to the success of these films, and I don't think it would be a stretch to say he's considered one of the greats. At the very least, he was hugely influential. There are more people who work on a film than just the director, and these alterations feel like a bit of a slap on Doyle's work.

As much as I love the movies, I just am not sure I can pull the trigger on this set for those reasons. But I'm happy that OldBoy is filled with his usual hyperboles in favor of the set.


One of cinema’s great collaborations is that between director Wong Kar-wai and cinematographer Christopher Doyle, together responsible for Days of Being Wild, Ashes of Time, Chungking Express, Fallen Angels, Happy Together, In the Mood for Love, and 2046—the majority of which were restored for Criterion’s new box set. With Wong retooling his films in varying capacities, we’ve wondered if Doyle was involved in this process and what he thinks about the changes. When we caught up with the cinematographer about a year ago, he didn’t seem greatly interested in revisiting his acclaimed work with the Hong Kong legend, but he’s since opened up in a recent interview.

“I think that we should not be so sensitive with our works. You have to let go, let them go. No need to masturbate over creations. I was not firmly involved in the restorations, although I gave my opinion several times and I was observing how the process was carried out,” he told the Spanish outlet Pagina 12 (via @standardspeeds). “I think the Fallen Angels case is a perfect example of an attitude towards work: they tried switching to an anamorphic format and oh, how they marveled. You always have to see with new eyes, the social and conceptual changes have been many. One thing that happened in almost all of those movies, something that people often call our ‘style,’ is that it usually came out of a mistake,” he said with a laugh.

He also says he didn’t watch the new version of Fallen Angels, but the idea to have select black-and-white scenes only came about in production. “What happened was that we shot a certain scene with two actors who had only been hired for one day and something went wrong with the emulsion,” he said. “I don’t remember the reason, maybe one of the attendees accidentally opened the can. The truth is that the image had been left with low exposure and a lot of grain. What to do about that? We tried various things and eventually transferred the scenes to high-exposure black and white film. And that worked. But we couldn’t have a single black-and-white scene, so we decided that every time something went wrong in the relationship between the leads, that situation would be seen in black and white. That became a part of the style, but it wasn’t originally that way. It was a kind of compromise.”

As for Happy Together, Doyle adds that “something similar happened with the first scene… but then we fell in love with black-and-white, and the movie ended up having about twenty minutes without color. The style came out of an unexpected coincidence, and I think that’s the attitude any artist should have. Usually, mistakes are telling you something you would never have thought of.”
https://thefilmstage.com/christopher...HWAj2vzXJCIofA

dsa_shea 04-19-21 12:01 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
He could have released the ultimate set by including the original versions and the tinkerer versions all remastered and together. That way most of us could have skipped the tinkerer discs and been satisfied with the original versions. Imagine your favorite band putting out the anniversary edition of your favorite album with completely different versions of the songs because they are now "older" artists. No thanks!

Josh Z 04-19-21 01:14 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by Brian T (Post 13921821)
I'll still wish that the original versions of each film could've likewise been included on the discs, especially from a company like Criterion that prides itself on 'preservation' of important films and has a pretty good track record of not letting revisionism run wild (this set and HEAVEN'S GATE notwithstanding, which probably indicates they'll be more open to it in the future).

Actually, Criterion's m.o. is typically to let the filmmakers do whatever they want. A number of titles in the Collection are only available in "Director's Cut" form without the original theatrical version. The Last Emperor was notoriously cropped by Vittorio Storaro. Thief was recolored teal-and-orange by Michael Mann. Etc.

DJariya 04-19-21 05:29 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Here's the extras for Deep Cover. Surprised they didn't put Dr. Dre & Snoop Dogg's music video Deep Cover in it. That was such a badass song.

Features:
  • New 4K digital restoration, with 2.0 surround DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack on the Blu-ray
  • New interview with director Bill Duke
  • New conversation between film scholars Racquel J. Gates and Michael B. Gillespie about Deep Cover’s place within both the Black film boom of the early 1990s and the noir genre
  • New conversation between scholar Claudrena N. Harold and professor, DJ, and podcaster Oliver Wang about the film’s title track and its importance to the history of hip-hop
  • Panel discussion from 2018 featuring Duke and Fishburne and moderated by film critic Elvis Mitchell
  • Trailer
  • English subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing
  • PLUS: An essay by Gillespie
  • New cover illustration by Ngabo “El’Cesart” Desire



OldBoy 04-19-21 05:48 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Besides the 2018 panel discuss, extras little to do with makers and actors of film. Little disappointing, especially for Criterion. I’ll get it, but hope the entertainment scholars or whatever they are are decent.

asianxcore 04-24-21 02:03 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Did anyone pick-up the Memories of Murder BD?

Opinions on the new Color Timing?

OldBoy 04-24-21 03:06 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
I picked it up. Sadly, haven’t gotten to it yet.

dex14 04-24-21 08:07 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by asianxcore (Post 13925423)
Did anyone pick-up the Memories of Murder BD?

Opinions on the new Color Timing?

If you have Hulu, the new remaster just got added this week.

asianxcore 04-25-21 12:36 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by dex14 (Post 13925531)
If you have Hulu, the new remaster just got added this week.

Thank you for the heads up!

I saw the remastered version in theaters back in October but have no memory on the Color Timing.

Mondo Kane 04-25-21 01:59 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by DJariya (Post 13922712)
Here's the extras for Deep Cover. Surprised they didn't put Dr. Dre & Snoop Dogg's music video Deep Cover in it. That was such a badass song.

I mentioned earlier that I hoped they would have done this as well, but it appears that the days where the music-video appearances for DVDs/BDs are looong gone. Unless it's some tongue-in-cheek original video like that one in Guardians/Galaxy Vol 2 with The Hoff.

T-bone22 04-25-21 08:46 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Goonies has the Cyndi Lauper video :lol:

OldBoy 04-28-21 06:50 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Seems to be an Asian director thing. What’s up with that? 3.5 for video (see below) and WoWKW set same thing. Is there rationale behind it? I know you guys who saw it on other release say new is worse, but seems to pervading thing in Asian Cinema. Just don’t let him change. I know there’s a b/w, but the color is perfect and contrasts the wealthy and non-wealthy so majestically.

Memories of Murder

T-bone22 04-28-21 07:44 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
That transfer makes it look as though the whole movie now takes place in the Matrix. What a shame.

rocket1312 04-28-21 09:00 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by OldBoy (Post 13927267)
Seems to be an Asian director thing. What’s up with that? 3.5 for video (see below) and WoWKW set same thing. Is there rationale behind it? I know you guys who saw it on other release say new is worse, but seems to pervading thing in Asian Cinema. Just don’t let him change. I know there’s a b/w, but the color is perfect and contrasts the wealthy and non-wealthy so majestically.

Memories of Murder

B/W? That's Parasite. Isn't this about Memories of Murder?

And it's not really a trend in Asian cinema. It's more like a trend with any of these digital restorations from the original negative. There are numerous examples of alterations like this in recent years. That said, I'm less convinced that this is the major revision that it appears to be on first glance. I don't love the look, but I've read some stuff that makes me think it might not be that far off from the original. But I've only seen this once, and it wasn't on 35mm, so I certainly don't know what it's supposed to look like.

*Edit* Just saw the caps on caps a holic and realize the Criterion has an additional green tint compared to the other discs based on this restoration. No idea what's going on there. Sometimes this hobby is so frustrating.

OldBoy 04-29-21 05:50 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by rocket1312 (Post 13927334)
B/W? That's Parasite. Isn't this about Memories of Murder?

And it's not really a trend in Asian cinema. It's more like a trend with any of these digital restorations from the original negative. There are numerous examples of alterations like this in recent years. That said, I'm less convinced that this is the major revision that it appears to be on first glance. I don't love the look, but I've read some stuff that makes me think it might not be that far off from the original. But I've only seen this once, and it wasn't on 35mm, so I certainly don't know what it's supposed to look like.

*Edit* Just saw the caps on caps a holic and realize the Criterion has an additional green tint compared to the other discs based on this restoration. No idea what's going on there. Sometimes this hobby is so frustrating.

yes, i meant Parasite. just included without (stupidly) not mentioning bc he also did MoM.

majorjoe23 04-30-21 08:46 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

Originally Posted by T-bone22 (Post 13926012)
Goonies has the Cyndi Lauper video :lol:

For a second I thought I had missed a Criterion release of The Goonies.

LorenzoL 05-12-21 06:12 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

DaveyJoe 05-12-21 07:33 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Look at all that orange.

Toddarino 05-13-21 06:35 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
The Matrix is right.

OldBoy 05-13-21 07:38 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
ugh, that is terrible. looks so unnatural compared to original. ugh.

dex14 05-17-21 12:14 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 

milo bloom 05-17-21 01:07 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
0/4 for me. Criterion and I seem to be drifting apart (he says after paying full price for the Shout! Factory release of King Kong at Best Buy just to ensure getting a good slipcover).

Dan 05-18-21 08:24 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Weird that they're only releasing one film from Wajda's war trilogy... would have been nice to have all three in a set like the old DVD box.

rbrown498 05-19-21 11:41 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Their announcement of After Life has made my year.

Shack 05-22-21 10:13 AM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
Original Cast Album: Company is an instant pre-order for me, especially with the current discount. Amazing special features.

dex14 06-10-21 12:15 PM

re: The Criterion Collection 4K/Blu-ray Discussion and Release Thread
 
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