arminius

I have to agree with this. I have a PS3 so its no problem. But if the average person hears that every couple of months or so, that they need to upgrade the software they will balk. I stll have a Toshiba 2109 that must be 8 or 9 years old that has never had an upgrade and plays every disc put into it. The only way this would work is if the player manufacturers mailed a disc to each customer and the disc was usable from the regular menu on the player for every upgrade. Anything more than that is too much effort for an appliance.

Coral

I agree. People are used to buying DVD movies and having it play on their player without any problems. I've owned 2 DVD players and they've played close to a thousand discs without problems. I don't know anyone personally who's had an issue with retail DVDs on their players.

People see a movie with a Blu-Ray logo on it, they rightly assume it should play properly on their Blu-Ray player. They shouldn't have to go out of their way to upgrade the player's firmware. A product that's expected to reach the mass market shouldn't have these issues as the average person doesn't know how to do these sort of things.

Firmware upgrades is an issue even if you don't have a problem with it yourself. Sweeping it under the carpet doesn't do the format any good and is being naive.

Adam Tyner

So you don't consider it an issue that people can buy a high-profile movie off the shelf, put it in a namebrand player, and it not work? (It's a rhetorical question; I'm sure you'll say that people should be grateful for the opportunity to buy a second BD player or something.)

I mean, I'm glad there are firmware upgrades to correct these sorts of issues, but these problems shouldn't exist in the first place. People aren't used to having to leap through hoops to play movies.

Mr. Salty

I do remember a lot of posts on this board, and others, in the early days of DVD about a few models of Toshiba DVD players that seemed to choke on a lot of discs. The problems were fixed with firmware upgrades, but the players had to be sent to Toshiba for the upgrades.

I guess I'm just lucky, because my Panasonic Blu-ray player has played every disc I've put in it so far.

SPRBD

I don't know, people seem to be comfortable with downloading updates from Microsoft all the time. I think, over time, people will become more and more tech savy. Many already are. I still feel that firmware updates are a good thing and many people out there agree.

There will always be naysayers and there will always be technophobes. Neither is a good reason for putting the brakes on technical advances.

I also think it's funny that many of the people who were bitching about non-2.0 compliant players are now bitching about firmware updates. Hello!?! If people have 2.0 players and those players are set up correctly, then firmware updates are a non-issue.

Gizmo

Are you really comparing something that often happens automatically (behind the scenes) to something that requires the user to set up a player with network information (when many can't even password protect their wireless router) and know to click and check for updates on a weekly basis? Or downloading an ISO from a website (making sure they are doing it for the right player and model), downloading a program to burn an ISO, and then hoping the disc actually works? C'mon. The two are totally different things.

It amuses me you think people will get their network connections (on 2.0) players setup correctly when this board is flooded with questions that many of us consider "duh". People asking why Blu-rays have black bars, if HDMI is really better then the included composite cables, and why Stars Wars is not available right now on Blu-ray.

And lets not forget, even if their player is setup correctly and they can download firmware updates does not mean one will be available on day 1 when that hot new movie arrives. How long was it before some got to play For Her Eyes Only?

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi

We can only hand hold the general population up to a point. At some point they'll have to do things on their own. Most things will have simple instructions for people that don't know what they're doing. If they still can't handle that, they usually know someone that can show them.

Drexl

Yeah, there's a big difference. Most computers get connected to the internet as soon as they are unpackaged, so it's no problem to download updates. Getting online is the reason most people buy a computer in the first place. Windows is even set up now to talk (nag?) you into automatic updates. It may be to a lesser degree, but the PS3 is also ripe for updates, because many people will connect to play games online.

On the other hand, most people don't think of a movie disc player as an internet-enabled device. Many don't have Ethernet connections in their living rooms, and these players don't have wi-fi. To add wi-fi, you'd need a bridge, which is a $60-80 purchase the last time I checked.

That's another good point about the updates. There is an Insignia player that had a holiday promotion with some Fox movies bundled. The discs have new BD+ on them, and so they won't play on it. The update isn't available yet.

pro-bassoonist

Let me ask you a question: How do you feel about Amazon selling imported PAL SDVDs with incorrect info addressing the tech specs? How do you feel about Amazon selling imported DVDs mixed with R1 DVDs without any info on compatibility at all? Am I to assume that you assume that everyone who buys a title off of Amazon is aware of its origin, and format compatibility?

Specifically as far as BestBuy's policy to charge a fee for the upgrade is concerned - certain parties have been notified about it and I am sure the practice will be addressed. What many fail to differentiate here is that BestBuy does not charge for the firmware upgrade, BestBuy charges for their time/service. So, with other words, they aren't doing anything illegal. Sure, I also disagree that they are doing it, but this is how our nation is: Americans love to pay other people to do something they could do on their own.

Thanks.
Pro-B

namja

The problem isn't with BB, whether it is charging for the service or not. The problem is with Blu-ray, because it requires firmware updates. Yet you focus on BB and not Blu-ray.

SPRBD

I never in my life would have anticipated so much bitching about a technology that lets itself get fixed on the fly and evolve to better itself over time.

Oh my GOD, people need to connect their machines to the internet!?!?! Nobody who ever heard of BD-Live anticipated that. What, you don't have to connect to the internet, you can just get somebody to burn you a disk?!?! Even better.

What, people who are embracing a new technology actually have to embrace a new technology?!?! UNHEARD OF!!?!?!!!

I'm actually a lot more concerned with how difficult it is to properly configure a Hi-Def setup. That's what I think more people should be bitching about.

namja

FYI, I love that there are updates. For people like you and me, this is great. But this is not the ideal setup for the mass market. The idea that a DVD player or a Blu-ray player has to be connected to the Internet is something that most people cannot grasp easily, and they won't be doing it.

True. This adds to the frustration of Blu-ray and HDTV in general. With DVD, this wasn't as big of a deal. With Blu-ray, if you want to notice a real difference from DVD, you need proper equipment, setup, calibration, etc.

pro-bassoonist

I was very specific about my take on the issue - it isn't an issue as far as I am concerned. Furthermore, I am sorry you believe that the problem is that Blu-ray requires firmware upgrades. If people can figure out how to insert a plastic card into their Satellite receiver, and upgrade their equipment, then I am positive they could put a disc into their players and watch the firmware get uploaded. If they cannot, I assume Best Buy's offer comes in handy.

Has firmware upgrading become a big deal?

Pro-B

Adam Tyner

I'm not keen on any of that either. I do think it's at least somewhat of a different scenario, though.

I can say just from the time I spend on message boards that the number of complaints I've seen about incompatible Blu-ray discs dwarfs complaints I've seen about accidentally ordering an import or winding up with an unplayable disc by relying on incorrect specs.

I'd say there's a reasonable expectation that if you walk into a store and buy a disc, you ought to be able to put it in and play it from start to finish without researching in advance or upgrading firmware. I do see these incompatibility issues as a potential barrier for Blu-ray becoming more widely adopted...that people who hear these sorts of complaints from their friends and family may be scared off, at least in the short term.

...but sometimes it takes weeks for these firmware releases to even come out. If I buy a disc, it doesn't play, I sit on hold for 20 minutes with customer service, and I'm told I might be able to watch it in March if I leap through a bunch of hoops, I'd be livid.

I don't see firmware in and of itself as the problem: I blame poor QA. It sounds like this is improving -- I don't remember hearing an overwhelming amount of complaints about incompatible discs in the months leading up to Bond and don't believe I've seen any since either -- but this needs to be ironed out as wholly as possible now.

Spiky

My Panny player has automatic updates. When I first hooked it up, it was downloading one by the time I got into my chair and set the receiver and TV to the proper inputs to see it onscreen.

Considering BB is the maker of the Insignia players, I'd call them the culprits for that particular mess linked above. There HAS to be a free way to get firmware, that is a complete ripoff. If I was an owner (and I'm considering a low-end player, could happen), I'd walk in and demand something from the manager. An upgrade, a disc, whatever.

But for everybody whining about firmware updates in general, while I agree it may be a problem for techno-idiots, it's time for those people to enter the 21st century. Or, y'all can stop whining for them. Let them come whine themselves. Then we can teach them something.

Spiky

Keep in mind that incompatibility is also greater with certain players. That goes direct to certain companies, it can't be blamed on "Bluray" at large. There is a reason to buy the right machine.

Adam Tyner

To an average end user, that's just semantics, and seemingly every manufacturer has run into one problem or another.

I just think people are used to thinking of media players as appliances, not as computers hooked up to their TVs. In the same way they expect to be able to buy a frozen dinner and chuck it in the oven without wondering if it'll actually bake all the way through, they expect to be able to buy a disc and put it into their player. I don't think that's the least bit unreasonable either.

Spiky

I'm not sure how, "my Insignia won't play my disc" vs "my Panasonic plays it just fine" is semantics. Sounds like standard "you get what you pay for" to me.

Qui Gon Jim

I agree here. The resident flagwavers can bury their heads all they like, but FW updates are a huge problem and a barrier (and it would have been no different for HD DVD) to deep market penetration. Sadly, it will take someone like Bestbuy to create a service that handles this for consumers.

Also, I disagree with the notion that 2009 is "it" for DVD. Give me a break. We have been hearing this from the blu-camp since 2006. DVD is in no danger from BD. They will likely gain some market share, but DVD will still be profitable for every company that makes DVDs. If companies can get discs to retail for $1 and still turn a profit, then I'd say that DVD has plenty of legs left in it.

Qui Gon Jim

BZZZT. Most people DON'T do the Microsoft updates, and that is where a lot of the malware comes from. The majority of those who do the update it is set up to run automatically.

pro-bassoonist

Firmware upgrades, and how they are handled by the manufacturers, were addressed before the end of 2009. As you well know, there is also a third party now that monitors the market very closely.

Pro-B

pro-bassoonist

I see that you are bringing a tone to this discussion that was certainly lacking. So, let's just say that you are really the one one who is in the dark when it comes to firmware upgrades and how they have been addressed, handled, and monitored by the relevant parties.

Carry on now.

Pro-B

The Cow

Perhaps you could provide him a bit of detail rather than being condescending without explanation?

Qui Gon Jim

OH! Color me corrected. You have said it so it must be correct. The only one with a tone here is you.

Again, your OPINION is NOT fact, neither is mine. You disrespect EVERYONE that disagrees with you, or more to the point anyone that has ANYTHING critical to say about BD at all.

As soon as someone said something about FW, I knew without doubt you'd be here to sweep it away. You basically accuse many that have far more than you invested in the format of not being supporters. Yet you STILL have yet to answer how many discs you own.

Why you are allowed to act this way is beyond me.

DVD Polizei

I think online buyers are a little more resourceful--even if there is a problem, second, B&M stores sell DVDs which 99.99% of the time don't have such issues, and third, consumers can exchange a "defective" title easily at a B&M. So, they're good to go. Exchange the title which was defective, get a new one, and everything is fine.

That's how it's supposed to work.

When we get into firmware requirements for simply watching a movie, it becomes much different than buying a DVD at a local store. Because you can't return the movie, because this won't solve the problem. You have to update your player. And not only is this a one-time thing.

You have to constantly update your goddamn player.

Why?

Well, because The Blu-ray Association and studios can't get their act together.

How long will I have to update my player?

Well, we don't know.

This is 2009 and I am utterly amazed we can't get a final standard for Blu-ray titles which should play on every goddamn Blu-ray player created. I support Blu-ray, but this is a major thorn up my ass.