Things we learned from the war (NYT Article)
#26
DVD Talk Legend
Reading the article, I don't fully agree with what anyone said. But I do agree with parts of the various people said. Although I don't think digital downloads are as killer as some may think, the bigger and more ignored beast from the article is DVD. How long will it take to replace that? I don't know.
#27
Originally Posted by Jamers
Please provide any supporting links on this. I find it hard to believe. This appears to just be based on your opinion and not any real facts.
1080p will last a few years...maybe even less as the "best resolution" and we'll see new and better HDTVs during CES 2009. Hell, Pioneer already announced a 40lb 50" plasma that was 9mm thick and has the lowest black levels available. Believe it or not, we need higher resolution. HD 1080 is just the start of this rather exciting visual experience. In addition, we have higher capacity discs which now allow higher quality audio, so now audio is getting more recognition than it ever has in a home theater and even on its own (see the NIN Ghosts I-IV release) .
#28
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From: In the Universe.
Honestly, I think better predictions would be made out of posters on this forum because many here have read every article, every sales report, etc. These guys probably did a fair amount of research but they wouldn't be informed as the long time posters so I can't put too much solace on their so called "predictions."
I do think the future is up in the air and no one, not them, anyone will truly know what's going to happen down the line and I will leave it at that.
I do think the future is up in the air and no one, not them, anyone will truly know what's going to happen down the line and I will leave it at that.
#29
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
You have access to the same internet I do. Read up. Feel free to not take my word for it. I just don't have the time to hold your hand and find every single link for 1440p or 2K or 4K tech.
1080p will last a few years...maybe even less as the "best resolution" and we'll see new and better HDTVs during CES 2009. Hell, Pioneer already announced a 40lb 50" plasma that was 9mm thick and has the lowest black levels available. Believe it or not, we need higher resolution. HD 1080 is just the start of this rather exciting visual experience. In addition, we have higher capacity discs which now allow higher quality audio, so now audio is getting more recognition than it ever has in a home theater and even on its own (see the NIN Ghosts I-IV release) .
1080p will last a few years...maybe even less as the "best resolution" and we'll see new and better HDTVs during CES 2009. Hell, Pioneer already announced a 40lb 50" plasma that was 9mm thick and has the lowest black levels available. Believe it or not, we need higher resolution. HD 1080 is just the start of this rather exciting visual experience. In addition, we have higher capacity discs which now allow higher quality audio, so now audio is getting more recognition than it ever has in a home theater and even on its own (see the NIN Ghosts I-IV release) .
Content sells the technology. Who would buy a IPod without MP3s? It would be a portable flash drive! Same thing, just a higher res display with NOTHING to show it off with! Just my opinion of course. I think 1080p is here for a LONG time.
#30
I expect 1440 to show itself much more in the next two years. You can bookmark this post. We currently have 720p televisions which can still accept a 1080 signal, so having 1440 HDTVs for sale while downsampling to 1080 is certainly not alien to the world of backwards-compatible technology.
And the iPod example is certainly NOT an example of content selling the technology. Form factor sold the iPod. It was small, thin, extremely portable, looked cool, and the interface was the easiest to PLAY the content which at the time, it was known other portable music devices were just awkward, bulky, and retarded). Apple has always been on the cutting edge of technology in the way of DESIGN. You could say design sells the technology, but this wouldn't be entirely true, either. The answer? It depends on the micro-sector of the technology.
What you currently think of 1440 is what SD DVD owners are thinking of 1080. Just think about that for a moment. Just like with 1080, 1440 will impress you more, depending on the size of the television.
And the iPod example is certainly NOT an example of content selling the technology. Form factor sold the iPod. It was small, thin, extremely portable, looked cool, and the interface was the easiest to PLAY the content which at the time, it was known other portable music devices were just awkward, bulky, and retarded). Apple has always been on the cutting edge of technology in the way of DESIGN. You could say design sells the technology, but this wouldn't be entirely true, either. The answer? It depends on the micro-sector of the technology.
What you currently think of 1440 is what SD DVD owners are thinking of 1080. Just think about that for a moment. Just like with 1080, 1440 will impress you more, depending on the size of the television.
#31
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From: Blu-ray.com
Originally Posted by wewantflair
Those guys from Sloan and Northwestern with their non-existent credibility...
I never took any of my esteem professors and now colleagues' words for granted, I considered their opinions but formed one on my own. I don't see a reason why I should change my approach now, regardless of the titles the men quoted above attach to their names.
The doom and gloom scenarios are nothing new on this forum, they are expected, and as far as I am concerned understood. So, we move on!
Pro-B
#32
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist
The doom and gloom scenarios are nothing new on this forum, they are expected, and as far as I am concerned understood. So, we move on!
We can talk about technology and movies all we want, but in the end, it's still business. And they sure know a helluva lot more about that than you or me or pretty much anyone in this forum. Sure, it may turn out that they are wrong, but at least in theory, it's hard to argue against them.
#33
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Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist
Indeed!
I never took any of my esteem professors and now colleagues' words for granted, I considered their opinions but formed one on my own. I don't see a reason why I should change my approach now, regardless of the titles the men quoted above attach to their names.
The doom and gloom scenarios are nothing new on this forum, they are expected, and as far as I am concerned understood. So, we move on!
Pro-B
I never took any of my esteem professors and now colleagues' words for granted, I considered their opinions but formed one on my own. I don't see a reason why I should change my approach now, regardless of the titles the men quoted above attach to their names.
The doom and gloom scenarios are nothing new on this forum, they are expected, and as far as I am concerned understood. So, we move on!
Pro-B
If you want to say they are wrong, fine, thats your opinion, but it seems ridicoulous to argue their words are not credible, just by the fact they were educated at some of the world's greatest economic schools, and in fact have been trusted and paid by those schools to teach others.
And finally, getting back to the point, it seems hardly realistic to say their opinions are "doom and gloom" but whatever
#34
Things (I) learned from the war
#35
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From: MiddleOfNowhere, CT
Originally Posted by namja
* I don't see Blu-ray dying, but I don't see it being profitable in the near future ... or ever.
The limited window of profitability the article talks about comes in to play here, too. It's going to be less profitable as time goes on and the next format takes away potential BD customers.
#36
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: 1140, 2K, 4K
Considering D-Theatre came out four years after the first HDTV was sold in the US, I don't see a 2K or 4K home system and media coming out in 2009, even if displays with better-than-HD resolution have been on sale for years.
Considering D-Theatre came out four years after the first HDTV was sold in the US, I don't see a 2K or 4K home system and media coming out in 2009, even if displays with better-than-HD resolution have been on sale for years.
#37
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Originally Posted by QuePaso
1440p TVs or even 4k res TVs wont be able to sell themselves for one thing.. There will NOT be content in that resolution for 10-20 years, and thats if you are LUCKY. Insiders at sony and hollywood insiders have said that NO studio would ever sell anything higher then 1080p, since 1080p is actually 2K (1920x1080), and thats what the Digital Cinemas use RIGHT now! So basically you are already getting CINEMA quality video and BETTER then cinema audio (LOSSLESS) right now as is. Why would they supply anything more? You could sell a 10k res TV, but if theres no content that looks amazing on it other then nature shows and documentarys, then good luck having it catch on.
Content sells the technology. Who would buy a IPod without MP3s? It would be a portable flash drive! Same thing, just a higher res display with NOTHING to show it off with! Just my opinion of course. I think 1080p is here for a LONG time.
Content sells the technology. Who would buy a IPod without MP3s? It would be a portable flash drive! Same thing, just a higher res display with NOTHING to show it off with! Just my opinion of course. I think 1080p is here for a LONG time.
I'd combine that and the fact you'd need a pretty big screen to really see any benefit of 1440p (or higher). Not saying they won't be made, but you'd be appealing to a very small subset of TV buyers, making content even less likely to come out. At least anyone with an HDTV can begin to appreciate the benefits of Blu-Ray. But how many people would actually have big enough TVs to appreciate any 1440p content?
#38
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally Posted by namja
You keep posting words like "doom and gloom" as though some of the people here want that. I doubt anyone here wants that to happen. The article represents scenarios that are far from doom and gloom. Rather, they represent realistic scenarios. An overly pessimistic view (your so-called "doom and gloom") would be to think that Blu-ray will die in a few years, and an overly optimistic view would be to think that Blu-ray will surpass DVD in a few years. I think reality will be far from either end, and the article did a fair job in representing that.
We can talk about technology and movies all we want, but in the end, it's still business. And they sure know a helluva lot more about that than you or me or pretty much anyone in this forum. Sure, it may turn out that they are wrong, but at least in theory, it's hard to argue against them.
We can talk about technology and movies all we want, but in the end, it's still business. And they sure know a helluva lot more about that than you or me or pretty much anyone in this forum. Sure, it may turn out that they are wrong, but at least in theory, it's hard to argue against them.

It's called REALISM, not doom and gloom. The article is spot-on, based on current evidence, from what I see. Doom and gloom is insisting Blu-ray will be dead any time now for VOD.
And those folks know way more than anyone on this forum about markets and products.
#39
I didn't remember reading as much doom and gloom posts or those regarding downloading until AFTER Warner Brothers chose BD on 1/4/08. So was it a scenario of "if HD DVD can't win, then no one should"?
Here's a nice article about downloads:
Report: "Movie Downloads a Tough Sell"
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/index.cfm
Here's a nice article about downloads:
Report: "Movie Downloads a Tough Sell"
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/index.cfm
#40
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From: A far green country
Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

It's called REALISM, not doom and gloom. The article is spot-on, based on current evidence, from what I see. Doom and gloom is insisting Blu-ray will be dead any time now for VOD.
There is actually very little in the article that I would label as "spot on", other than the way they were "spot on" in their lack of accurate information. One of the experts even went so far as to say that HD DVD might be orphaned by hardware and software vendors. MIGHT be?
Will Blu-ray end up as a tiny niche format, a footnote in history? Maybe, maybe not. Time (and consumers) will tell. But, since many "experts" said the exact same thing about DVD ten years ago (albeit for different reasons), I will prefer to see what actually happens, rather than take these peoples' word for it.
If I were to believe their conclusions, I would simply sell off my HDM hardware and software now, and go back to DVD with a nice upconverting player. I have no interest in owning a format where the bulk of the movies I would want to own will never be available.
#41
Originally Posted by RoboDad
If I were to believe their conclusions, I would simply sell off my HDM hardware and software now, and go back to DVD with a nice upconverting player. I have no interest in owning a format where the bulk of the movies I would want to own will never be available.
#42
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally Posted by RoboDad
Maybe we didn't read the same article, because in the one I read that's exactly what three of the four "experts" concluded. That Blu-ray will be a "footnote" in the history of technology, replaced by "streaming", "digital downloading", and "video on demand".
There is actually very little in the article that I would label as "spot on", other than the way they were "spot on" in their lack of accurate information. One of the experts even went so far as to say that HD DVD might be orphaned by hardware and software vendors. MIGHT be?
Will Blu-ray end up as a tiny niche format, a footnote in history? Maybe, maybe not. Time (and consumers) will tell. But, since many "experts" said the exact same thing about DVD ten years ago (albeit for different reasons), I will prefer to see what actually happens, rather than take these peoples' word for it.
If I were to believe their conclusions, I would simply sell off my HDM hardware and software now, and go back to DVD with a nice upconverting player. I have no interest in owning a format where the bulk of the movies I would want to own will never be available.
There is actually very little in the article that I would label as "spot on", other than the way they were "spot on" in their lack of accurate information. One of the experts even went so far as to say that HD DVD might be orphaned by hardware and software vendors. MIGHT be?
Will Blu-ray end up as a tiny niche format, a footnote in history? Maybe, maybe not. Time (and consumers) will tell. But, since many "experts" said the exact same thing about DVD ten years ago (albeit for different reasons), I will prefer to see what actually happens, rather than take these peoples' word for it.
If I were to believe their conclusions, I would simply sell off my HDM hardware and software now, and go back to DVD with a nice upconverting player. I have no interest in owning a format where the bulk of the movies I would want to own will never be available.
The doom and gloom is thinking that it is coming so quickly that BD will be antiquated any time now. I think downloads are a decade or more away from being the mainstream solution and will likely be the "replacement" for DVDs, like they are slowly becoming for CDs.
Market research, adoption rates of even broadcast/cable HDTV, etc all shows that a lot of people just don't care about HD. BD will remain a large niche. Like namja says, the true scenario likely will fall somewhere between the so-called "doom and gloom" people, and the hopeless BD optimists who insist in a few years Blu-Ray will have DVD on the run.
Last edited by GreenMonkey; 03-05-08 at 12:11 PM.
#43
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Yeah, I'd say it's entirely possible with the cost of data storage rapidly decreasing, and high speed data connections becoming more of "the norm," then downloadable media could quite possibly provide some real competition for traditional hard copy high-def media (a few years down the road anyway).
#44
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From: Blu-ray.com
Originally Posted by namja
You keep posting words like "doom and gloom" as though some of the people here want that. I doubt anyone here wants that to happen. The article represents scenarios that are far from doom and gloom. Rather, they represent realistic scenarios. An overly pessimistic view (your so-called "doom and gloom") would be to think that Blu-ray will die in a few years, and an overly optimistic view would be to think that Blu-ray will surpass DVD in a few years. I think reality will be far from either end, and the article did a fair job in representing that.
We can talk about technology and movies all we want, but in the end, it's still business. And they sure know a helluva lot more about that than you or me or pretty much anyone in this forum. Sure, it may turn out that they are wrong, but at least in theory, it's hard to argue against them.
We can talk about technology and movies all we want, but in the end, it's still business. And they sure know a helluva lot more about that than you or me or pretty much anyone in this forum. Sure, it may turn out that they are wrong, but at least in theory, it's hard to argue against them.
Also, I can specifically point out why I don't believe a single word in this article and why the bulk of the observations are very much off, regardless of how esteem the men that produced them are, but then we will go down to arguing different numbers and articles that are being published and you, the moderators, will close this thread as "we've been over it before". Hence my remark that we/I move on.
And yes, the gloom and doom scenarios perpetuated through different articles are much more common and from what I sense "justified" here mainly because I see that there are people who are intentionally attempting to belittle any positive BR news, for a reason, avoiding the note at the top of the BR Discussions and News thread. An article (The Times) about the robust UK sales posted on its own surely would have been moved to the BR thread for example.
So, with all this in mind I pretty much echo Adam's thoughts in the "I miss the war" thread. Hence, why I repeatedly typed "move on".
Pro-B
#45
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
According to Toshiba's CEO, you soon won't even be able to tell the difference between HD and dvd using their upconverting players.
If upconverting is so good why did they even bother with HD DVD? Talk about contradictory...
Maybe they can get a new marketing campaign for their upconverters called The Look And Sound Of Nearly Perfect But Not Quite.
#46
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Originally Posted by GreenMonkey
I think we all know that downloading or some sort of VOD solution will likely replace discs, someday. Right?
But as to your other point, the tone of the opinions voiced in the article were such that there was an implication that "VOD" will come quickly, so quickly as to render Blu-ray irrelevant already. If that's not doom and gloom, I don't know what is.
#47
DVD Talk Hero
Reading this thread, I'm convinced that some of you didn't actually read the article. The question in the article was "What Are the Lessons of the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD Battle?" and here are their answers (just the "lessons" parts are quoted below).
The format war was clearly a mistake. And these are some of the lessons that we learned from that mistake. How is this a negative piece? Or a doom and gloom piece? This is reality, something that some of you seem to have a hard time grasping.
Shane Greenstein, professor of management and strategy at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University:
The lesson for vendors: a format victory does not guarantee profitability.
The lesson for an impatient buyer: a format war does not benefit every impatient buyer.
The lesson for a patient buyer: patient buyers gain certainty by ceding control.
Pai-Ling Yin, assistant professor of strategy at M.I.T.’s Sloan School of Management:
There is but a limited amount of time (until the appearance of the next generation technology) for the firms and the technology of this generation to reap the rewards of being the shiny new item on the block. That window of opportunity can be eaten away in a standards battle between two incompatible technologies.
The next-generation DVD player is only one battle in the larger war over the living room. Who will control the home entertainment center?
Andrei Hagiu, assistant professor of business administration at Harvard Business School:
The more interesting question is, “Has Blu-ray has really won?” This epic standards duel has lasted about two years and, as a result, both camps have sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into trying to gain the upper hand — not necessarily by improving their respective standards technologically, but, say, by paying bribes to large content providers in order to win their support.
It is not clear that the current size of the “pie,” which is now available for sharing between Sony and its allies, is big enough to offset these losses.
In fact, the greatest irony of all is that Toshiba’s price went up 5 percent after the announcement last week. That’s not so surprising, in light of the above: investors must be relieved that Toshiba will finally stop throwing money away in order to get people on its standard.
Perhaps one lesson that this particular war drives home particularly well is this: not fighting in the first place might be a very good strategy to win, if only the contestants could be smart enough at the beginning.
Bystander players in standards wars (in this case, content providers such as Hollywood studios) also have a lesson to learn: indecisiveness can be very wasteful for them, too.
Michael Santo, executive editor of RealTechNews and technology blogger:
The lesson learned is an expensive one, for the companies involved as well as for consumers. For the former, the lack of a unified standard will end up costing the “losers” millions.
For consumers, the lesson is: don’t rush in immediately when something new comes out.
The lesson for vendors: a format victory does not guarantee profitability.
The lesson for an impatient buyer: a format war does not benefit every impatient buyer.
The lesson for a patient buyer: patient buyers gain certainty by ceding control.
Pai-Ling Yin, assistant professor of strategy at M.I.T.’s Sloan School of Management:
There is but a limited amount of time (until the appearance of the next generation technology) for the firms and the technology of this generation to reap the rewards of being the shiny new item on the block. That window of opportunity can be eaten away in a standards battle between two incompatible technologies.
The next-generation DVD player is only one battle in the larger war over the living room. Who will control the home entertainment center?
Andrei Hagiu, assistant professor of business administration at Harvard Business School:
The more interesting question is, “Has Blu-ray has really won?” This epic standards duel has lasted about two years and, as a result, both camps have sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into trying to gain the upper hand — not necessarily by improving their respective standards technologically, but, say, by paying bribes to large content providers in order to win their support.
It is not clear that the current size of the “pie,” which is now available for sharing between Sony and its allies, is big enough to offset these losses.
In fact, the greatest irony of all is that Toshiba’s price went up 5 percent after the announcement last week. That’s not so surprising, in light of the above: investors must be relieved that Toshiba will finally stop throwing money away in order to get people on its standard.
Perhaps one lesson that this particular war drives home particularly well is this: not fighting in the first place might be a very good strategy to win, if only the contestants could be smart enough at the beginning.
Bystander players in standards wars (in this case, content providers such as Hollywood studios) also have a lesson to learn: indecisiveness can be very wasteful for them, too.
Michael Santo, executive editor of RealTechNews and technology blogger:
The lesson learned is an expensive one, for the companies involved as well as for consumers. For the former, the lack of a unified standard will end up costing the “losers” millions.
For consumers, the lesson is: don’t rush in immediately when something new comes out.
#48
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by bunkaroo
Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
According to Toshiba's CEO, you soon won't even be able to tell the difference between HD and dvd using their upconverting players.
.If I were to give him the benefit of doubt ... maybe he meant that most people won't be able to tell the difference, since most already can't tell the difference between upconverted DVD and HDM let alone SD programming and HD programming. Seriously, how often do you hear people ask, "Hey, is that HD?" I hear it every single time there's an HDTV in the room/store.
#49
Banned by request
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist
So, with all this in mind I pretty much echo Adam's thoughts in the "I miss the war" thread. Hence, why I repeatedly typed "move on".
Pro-B
Pro-B
#50
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by namja
I almost find it difficult to believe that he said that. That is horseshit (even worse than bullshit) and deserving of a
.
If I were to give him the benefit of doubt ... maybe he meant that most people won't be able to tell the difference, since most already can't tell the difference between upconverted DVD and HDM let alone SD programming and HD programming. Seriously, how often do you hear people ask, "Hey, is that HD?" I hear it every single time there's an HDTV in the room/store.
.If I were to give him the benefit of doubt ... maybe he meant that most people won't be able to tell the difference, since most already can't tell the difference between upconverted DVD and HDM let alone SD programming and HD programming. Seriously, how often do you hear people ask, "Hey, is that HD?" I hear it every single time there's an HDTV in the room/store.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120450428955606405.html
WSJ: Aren't you at a disadvantage with just standard DVD players?
Mr. Nishida: What people don't realize is that Hollywood studios are going to release new titles not just for Blu-ray but for standard DVDs as well, and there are a far greater number of current-generation DVD players out there. If you watch standard DVDs on our players, the images are of very high quality because they include an "upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images. The players would be much cheaper than Blu-ray players too. Next-generation DVD players are in a much weaker position than when standard DVD players were first introduced.
Mr. Nishida: What people don't realize is that Hollywood studios are going to release new titles not just for Blu-ray but for standard DVDs as well, and there are a far greater number of current-generation DVD players out there. If you watch standard DVDs on our players, the images are of very high quality because they include an "upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images. The players would be much cheaper than Blu-ray players too. Next-generation DVD players are in a much weaker position than when standard DVD players were first introduced.
I see what you mean how him saying people won't be able to tell the difference, but I reiterate, if that's his belief, why did they bother with HD DVD?
EDIT: I found this part pretty funny:
WSJ: How do spend your free time?
Mr. Nishida: My hobby is reading. I usually read six to seven books simultaneously on subjects like politics, economy, management, history and science in addition to novels. Two or three of them are usually in English. I just finished reading "The Future of Management." Right now, I'm reading Lawrence Lindsey's "What a President Should Know" and "Judgment: How Winning Leaders Make Great Calls."
Mr. Nishida: My hobby is reading. I usually read six to seven books simultaneously on subjects like politics, economy, management, history and science in addition to novels. Two or three of them are usually in English. I just finished reading "The Future of Management." Right now, I'm reading Lawrence Lindsey's "What a President Should Know" and "Judgment: How Winning Leaders Make Great Calls."
Last edited by bunkaroo; 03-05-08 at 04:52 PM.



