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-   -   General Blu-ray News and Discussion - Part 6 (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/526511-general-blu-ray-news-discussion-part-6-a.html)

Gizmo 03-12-08 12:42 PM


Originally Posted by bunkaroo
Are you reviewing somewhere now? I haven't seen you mention screeners before.

Yes I am. I just started but not sure if I can post a link to them since they are not affiliated with DVDTalk. I meant to PM the mods and see if it would be ok to do so in the appropriate threads. Just got my first one online a few minutes ago.

rfduncan 03-12-08 01:23 PM


Originally Posted by candyrocket786

Originally Posted by jiggawhat
I guess some people are going to have to eat crow because the BOGO has returned: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread...109#post8554109

At Target on 3/16 -3/22

Would be nice if the selection was a little larger. :(

Agreed. No crow eating necessary with THAT slate.

Casino Royale
Spider-man 3
Live Free Of Die Hard
Ocean’s Thirteen
300
SAW IV
3:10 To Yuma
Pirates Of The Caribbean: At World’s End
The Simpson’s Movie
The Game Plan
Ratatouille


Blech. -ohbfrank-

Supermallet 03-12-08 01:37 PM


Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Yes I am. I just started but not sure if I can post a link to them since they are not affiliated with DVDTalk. I meant to PM the mods and see if it would be ok to do so in the appropriate threads. Just got my first one online a few minutes ago.

Hey Gizmo, send me a PM with the details and I will ask the other mods about it so we can get a clear answer for you.

Adam Tyner 03-12-08 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by rfduncan
Agreed. No crow eating necessary with THAT slate.

I'm disappointed with the selection too -- not because there's anything wrong with those movies, but I already have 10 of those 11 titles. :D That's not to say that it's a bad deal or anything, just that I kinda wish there were more so I could take advantage.

Gizmo 03-12-08 02:07 PM


Originally Posted by rfduncan
Agreed. No crow eating necessary with THAT slate.

Casino Royale
Spider-man 3
Live Free Of Die Hard
Ocean’s Thirteen
300
SAW IV
3:10 To Yuma
Pirates Of The Caribbean: At World’s End
The Simpson’s Movie
The Game Plan
Ratatouille



3:10 and Live Free (PG-13 cut grrr) for me.
Blech. -ohbfrank-


applesandrice 03-12-08 03:35 PM


Originally Posted by rfduncan
Agreed. No crow eating necessary with THAT slate.

Casino Royale
Spider-man 3
Live Free Of Die Hard
Ocean’s Thirteen
300
SAW IV
3:10 To Yuma
Pirates Of The Caribbean: At World’s End
The Simpson’s Movie
The Game Plan
Ratatouille


Blech. -ohbfrank-


A few weeks ago I went through the list of current Blu-ray releases and discovered there were only about 8-10 that I would want. I've since bought two of the 8-10, and there are three more of them on that BOGO list. At this rate I'm going to have all 8-10 titles long before there's a player on the market that I'll want to buy.

Mr. Cinema 03-13-08 11:56 AM

On blu-ray.com, "kjack", (BD insider, Sigma Designs) was asked when we'll see standalone players matching load times/java handling of the PS3. His response:

"Things are improving rapidly, so most players coming out later this year should pretty much come close to matching it."

I've not done any timing comparisons, but with version 1.6, my Panasonic BD30 seems to be loading java discs a little faster and may not be choking as much during menu selection.

Mr. Cinema 03-13-08 12:24 PM

paidgeek stated today on blu-ray.com that they have new transfers for Air Force One and Starship Troopers. "They look quite good".

I've been patiently waiting for Air Force One. Sounds like that one is headed our way this year.

Hammer99 03-13-08 12:31 PM


Originally Posted by rfduncan
Agreed. No crow eating necessary with THAT slate.

Casino Royale
Spider-man 3
Live Free Of Die Hard
Ocean’s Thirteen
300
SAW IV
3:10 To Yuma
Pirates Of The Caribbean: At World’s End
The Simpson’s Movie
The Game Plan
Ratatouille


Blech. -ohbfrank-

Well, like others I bought 10 of the 11 the week they went on sale, and I have no interest in Game Plan. But isn't this the first time that Saw 4, 3:10, Simpsons Movie, & POTC 3 have been offered anywhere as BOGO? If so, I think it's a pretty decent sale for those who waited.

Brooklyn 03-13-08 01:41 PM


Originally Posted by Hammer99
But isn't this the first time that Saw 4, 3:10, Simpsons Movie, & POTC 3 have been offered anywhere as BOGO? If so, I think it's a pretty decent sale for those who waited.

Pirates 3 was in the TRU Buy 1 Get 1.

Gizmo 03-13-08 09:30 PM

Gizmodo has an excellent article on the current state, and future of Blu-ray. Brings a lot of my fears to the table, as well as adding some new ones I was unaware from.

http://gizmodo.com/366260/whole-blu-...oody-aftermath


The format war. It's over. Done. Break out the blue victory hats and Curaçao, right? Wrong. There won't be a Blu-ray victory party. Don't take my word for it? How about Sony Electronics CEO Stan Glasgow's? "From our perspective, the battle really begins now." Now that HD DVD is dispatched, the members of Team Blu-ray can start fighting standard-def DVDs, digital downloads, consumer apathy, the Chinese and—of course—each other. Here's the current state of Blu-ray, post-war edition:

Everybody Hurts
It's been discussed at length how brutal this contest was for Toshiba. But the Blu-ray members in the victory circle are licking some pretty serious wounds, too. Sony basically bet their entire company on the format—plowing over a billion dollars into the PS3 trojan horse, plus, as far as we know, another half billion on largesse for studios to put on Blu's stripes, for starters.

Chris Walker, Pioneer's senior product manager for Blu-ray told us he thought that the format war "affected Blu-ray prices substantially," and that "for a new technology to drop the prices by half within a year of coming out" seriously hurt everyone involved. People are still ready to complain about the relatively high price of Blu-ray players, but they are way lower than the manufacturers had planned, and now they can't recoup the high fixed development costs they would have with higher price tags during the first couple years on the market. DVD players were stratospherically priced for several years.

On the studio side, the drawn-out conflict was sapping both HD disc and DVD sales, as consumers waited for a victor and slowed down DVD purchases in anticipation. Everybody was losing, even the winners. It got so bad that we have reason to believe Sony didn't just urge Best Buy, Netflix and Wal-Mart to go exclusively Blu, but went so far as to ask Toshiba directly to please pull out.

Their pain, you're pay-ing
Point is, a lot of money was spent to hoist Blu-ray onto the winner's pedestal. Why do you care? Because it means manufacturers aren't rushing to drop player prices any further than they have already. Walker admitted the only reason players are as cheap as they are—calling $399 a year after the format's introduction a "bargain"—is because of the format war. Interestingly, Walker also told us that low hardware margins are part of the reason Toshiba mostly stood alone in standalone player production: "Why would Pioneer want to build one when Toshiba was selling them at $150?"

So, while Pioneer promises healthy competition between Blu-ray Disc Association members this year, don't expect it to be too healthy—the big price-killer among them is the PS3, ironically. The major force that drove down DVD-player prices years ago was the flood of cheap Chinese models at Wal-Mart, and the BDA is holding them at bay, refusing to license the tech to low-cost manufacturers for the time being. Piracy is implied as a concern, but the more obvious motive is to keep player prices as high as they can, while they can, to recoup the heavy losses incurred waging the format war in the first place. A $199 player with a Sony name on it is definitely at least a year away.

Spec Wars, SKU Times
We've already told you not to buy a Blu-ray player yet, citing the spec issue—if you buy a player without an Ethernet port, you're screwed when it comes to more updated specifications like BD-Live interactive content and picture-in-picture. But it's actually even crazier than we thought. When we finally see a geniune $199 Blu-ray player, it will more than likely be spec 1.1, so you'll get picture-in-picture, but there won't be any internet-fueled interaction, like that sweet-sounding AVP multiplayer game.

That's right, even after Blu-ray spec 2.0 players finally hit the market, new 1.1 spec players will continue to roll out as well, so the potential for consumer confusion will remain stratospheric. (Everyone should heed Sony CEO Stan Glasgow's own comment: "Any confusion curbs consumer demand.") See, the 2.0 spec is not mandatory for manufacturers, though 1.1 is. Consequently, the cheapest players we will see finally hitting shelves will be 1.1. Walker confirms that while he personally "would like to see BD-Live players only," even Pioneer "will be offering both types of players."

The different players will be labeled either "BonusView" or "BD-Live," not 1.1 or 2.0, which is good, because Glasgow doesn't "think consumers are that aware of 1.0, 2.0, whatever." Will they even know the difference between BonusView and BD-Live? Will they understand why a player they buy now won't access features on a disc they buy later, just because Sony says "that's the way it goes in the world"?

Content is King Queen
The spec issue is messy on the content front as well—and we're not just talking about clearly labeled discs. The 2.0 spec being optional on future players makes its feature set all the more frivolous—why spend a lot of money creating features only the richest Blu-ray users—a smaller fraction of an already tiny fraction—can access? For example, while Fox is definitely sporting wood for interactivity, others aren't as excited. Sony Home Entertainment biz dev VP Rich Marty told us it's "just the icing on the cake." Icing not everyone can lick.

On the other hand, things are mostly looking up on the new-release front for Blu—all of the major studios we talked to said that pretty much every major theatrical release will hit the format from here on out. It's the back catalog that's the prob, and it's going to be slow coming by most accounts. Not only will Universal probably take a very long time getting its current 150-disc HD DVD catalog out on Blu-ray, but other studios will most likely double dip, releasing the same movie a second time with better features and perhaps a cleaner transfer, before getting around to some of your favorite old chestnuts.

Speaking of Universal, we're currently looking at a months-long black hole of Universal, Dreamworks and Paramount's releases, thanks to their belated integration (or re-integration) into the Blu-ray fold. Not only will it be late spring or early summer before we see any of their flicks hit Blu, we're hearing that they might have trouble buying dual-layer 50GB Blu-ray discs to produce them on, because the more settled Blu-ray studios have already purchased the entire 2008 stock—not hard to do, thanks to the limited number of replication sites and lower yields. This means that they'll only have access to 25GB discs, which could mean fewer features and lower-quality video and audio.

If you don't think capacity is an issue—necessitating the dual-layer discs— a Disney spokesperson (not to mention Metal Gear guru Hideo Kojima) says otherwise: even 50GB isn't enough. Disney's upcoming Sleeping Beauty Platinum release is going to take up two discs: a 50GB double layer plus another 25GB one. While every release won't be a two-disc monster, the company tells us that "franchises like Pirates of the Caribbean or Narnia...also get similar kind of treatments." It also confirmed that, for the moment, Blu-ray disc replicators are "kinda limited."

The Real Enemy
Truthfully, these are all just minor issues. The biggest problem on Blu-ray's hands? DVD. It's entrenched, it's cheap, and for most people, it's good enough (especially upscaled on a 720p LCD from 8 or 10 feet away). Sony mouthpieces and execs laugh off the "threat" of video downloads, but they don't seem to laugh when you talk about the exact same content on DVD. Even while Glasgow assures us they "think [Blu-ray sales] can get up to DVD levels," he admits "there are some issues: upscaling DVDs is getting better and better." Sony continually must "convince people of the value of high definition."

In fact, everyone we talked to—in Hollywood or in hardware—emphasized the need to educate consumers about high def and convince them to make the switch. If it's so inevitable and obvious, why do they need to pour a load of money and ad time into it? Sony's major campaign for the entire year is "HDNA," all about educating consumers about HD.

The Sony brand might "hold up well during difficult economic times" but a recession will keep DVD looking pretty good to a lot of people, even ones who already bought an HDTV. Bundling players with HDTVs—which Glasgow said would happen soon—might spur adoption, but until the Wal-mart masses can easily (read: cheaply) adopt Blu-ray, it's not going to knock DVD players off shelves. That's several years out.

The Dim Light at the End of the Tunnel
Naturally, Blu-ray will only get better—the hardware will improve, the catalog will grow, the feature set will expand. Already standalone players load up much faster than craptastically slow players of yesteryear—one of Pioneer's new players, which will be announced shortly, already boasts a boot time of 14.8 seconds, nearly halving the time of the current fastest standalone player, Panasonic's BD-30, which stands at around 26 seconds. It's on those kind of things that Pioneer plans to compete on in the market, though it'll be asking a heavier price to get them.

Blu-ray will get cheaper though, slowly but surely. Competition between and amongst BDA members will nudge prices down to the $299 mark this year, and we'll see that mythic $199 mark within a year—with the Chinese cheap-player cavalry not far behind, ready to grind profit margins into oblivion. That's when we'll see mass adoption—when, from a consumer perspective, Blu-ray really "wins." Too bad, on the hardware side, there may not be any spoils left for the victors.
So the BDA did not expect Blu-ray player to be as low as they are now. How soon will until we get cheaper, more consumer friendly prices? Will they continue to build and make 1.0 players because they are cheaper? By the BDA blocking out Chinese players they will will be able to price fix these players for as long as they want.

If Universal/PW can't get 50GB disc, they would be forced to use 25GB discs, 5GB less then the HD DVD discs that Blu-ray fans LOLed about for well over a year. Even then, how many can they get? How many titles will remain HD DVD exclusive for years to come because of this? My $8 clearance HD DVDs are looking pretty good right now.

I'd love to hear some responses to this and discussions...no bashing on either side hopefully.

Drexl 03-13-08 09:54 PM

Well, they would still be able to port some titles directly over if they drop the extras (unfortunately). Some titles used less than 25GB even with extras, and of course a handful of them only used a single-layer. For the single-layer HD DVD ports, maybe they can include the extras where you had to use the DVD side to access, like those on Animal House. However, they'll have to change the audio because DD+ is optional and rare on BD. Hopefully they'll go up to TrueHD instead of down to standard DD.

Gizmo 03-13-08 09:57 PM


Originally Posted by Drexl
Well, they would still be able to port some titles directly over if they drop the extras (unfortunately). Some titles used less than 25GB even with extras, and of course a handful of them only used a single-layer. For the single-layer HD DVD ports, maybe they can include the extras where you had to use the DVD side to access, like those on Animal House. However, they'll have to change the audio because DD+ is optional and rare on BD. Hopefully they'll go up to TrueHD instead of down to standard DD.

I doubt very many HD DVDs used the full 30GB space anyway. Not sure how they would handle the audio though...

I'm more worried about new releases (when they start).

bunkaroo 03-13-08 10:24 PM

None of that is really news.

Not surprising Uni and Paramount are at the back of the line. Why shouldn't they be? They only came to Blu because they were forced to.

If the BDA wants to supplant DVD, they'll have to drop player prices. Personally, I think Blu-Ray is fine as a premium product, and I'd wager the majority of regular joe consumers who don't want to spend $400 on a player are also the same people who might not care about the difference anyway.

I also think if studios are serious about replacing DVD, they need to start with Blu-Ray exclusive windows, just like DVD had. But since the VHS collecting market wasn't as voracious as the DVD market, I don't see it happening too soon.

I guess what it really comes down to is this: how much does Blu-Ray have to sell to be profitable for studios and manufacturers? Because frankly, if it stays at a laserdisc level, I'd be fine with that as long as the titles keep coming. I really don't give a shit if my neighbor or aunt or co-worker figure out the benefits of HD as long as I can keep getting the titles I want. I just bought four catalog titles on Blu-Ray this week. That's pretty good to me.

dsa_shea 03-13-08 10:24 PM

I understand that there are people that want cheap Blu-Ray players. At the same time we can't sit back and expect them to hand them out like Thanksgiving turkeys. They did say that there was some cost in development that they would like to recoup and with the lower than expected prices it is making it even more difficult. People piss and moan about the prices of these players yet will drop a 100 plus on a pair of shoes with a basketball players name attached. I guess the only thing to do for those that whine about the prices is to call Norcent and ask them if they will develop a Blu-Ray player for you.

Gizmo 03-13-08 10:31 PM


Originally Posted by bunkaroo
Not surprising Uni and Paramount are at the back of the line. Why shouldn't they be? They only came to Blu because they were forced to.

Forced is a pretty strong words. Both studios could just choose not to release at all for the time being (though I'm sure the BDA offered them some sort of incentive not to, otherwise Blu-ray would have no chance of ever possibly replacing DVD). Its not like their is huge amounts of money to be made in HDM at the moment. 65k on release week is HUGE news for a Blu-ray title while the DVD sells 4-5 Million and no one really cares.

Hammer99 03-13-08 10:44 PM


Originally Posted by bunkaroo
None of that is really news.

Not surprising Uni and Paramount are at the back of the line. Why shouldn't they be? They only came to Blu because they were forced to.

If the BDA wants to supplant DVD, they'll have to drop player prices. Personally, I think Blu-Ray is fine as a premium product, and I'd wager the majority of regular joe consumers who don't want to spend $400 on a player are also the same people who might not care about the difference anyway.

I also think if studios are serious about replacing DVD, they need to start with Blu-Ray exclusive windows, just like DVD had. But since the VHS collecting market wasn't as voracious as the DVD market, I don't see it happening too soon.

I guess what it really comes down to is this: how much does Blu-Ray have to sell to be profitable for studios and manufacturers? Because frankly, if it stays at a laserdisc level, I'd be fine with that as long as the titles keep coming. I really don't give a shit if my neighbor or aunt or co-worker figure out the benefits of HD as long as I can keep getting the titles I want. I just bought four catalog titles on Blu-Ray this week. That's pretty good to me.

Great post, I agree 100%. Post-war FUD doesn't bother me at all, actually I think it's pretty funny.

Drexl 03-13-08 10:54 PM


Originally Posted by bunkaroo
I also think if studios are serious about replacing DVD, they need to start with Blu-Ray exclusive windows, just like DVD had. But since the VHS collecting market wasn't as voracious as the DVD market, I don't see it happening too soon.

What exclusive windows did DVD have? I'm pretty sure they were released at the same time as their VHS counterparts. Do you mean rental pricing?

Gerry P. 03-14-08 01:16 AM


Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
65k on release week is HUGE news for a Blu-ray title while the DVD sells 4-5 Million and no one really cares.

Since we haven't seen any actual numbers for a long time, where did you come up with the 65k figure? Link?

Peep 03-14-08 01:18 AM

"...if you buy a player without an Ethernet port, you're screwed when it comes to more updated specifications like BD-Live interactive content and picture-in-picture."

That, specifically, is bullshit. The rest of the article was fear-mongering at it's best.

QuePaso 03-14-08 02:57 AM

More FUD, more BS, more "please give me a free blu-ray player" crap. For goodness sakes. This is a PREMIUM product. If you cannot afford it, wait.

Sony said in the next few months, they will be doing 600% the capacity of 2007 as far as capable discs per month. Cineram is adding more lines and other pressing plants are joining in as fast as possible. I really doubt anyone will be having ANY issues with getting BD50s, unless someone here would like to claim them as...... Science Fiction.

Supermallet 03-14-08 05:01 AM

I think the article raises a few legitimate issues, and blows a few others out of proportion. This isn't the first time I've heard Pioneer complain about how quickly the prices on hardware dropped. Did Pioneer spend a lot of money on R&D for Blu-ray? I think it's far more likely that Pioneer is used to charging a shit ton of money for their (admittedly excellent) products, and are pissed that they can't charge nearly as much for Blu-ray. I haven't heard Panasonic or Samsung or Sharp complain at all about profit margins (although I'm sure they also wish they could sell for more), so I take Pioneer's comments with a grain of salt.

And while I think Blu-ray would be best served as a premium product, the goal of the studios is to have the format replace DVD. That's why there's such a focus on lower prices. Many of the members here aren't willing to pay $400 for a player, and we're nowhere near as casual about home theaters as the average joe. So it's a legitimate concern if your goal is to replace DVD. Personally, I think if Blu-ray does replace DVD, it's going to be a very long, slow, and gradual process. The studios shouldn't be in such a hurry to rush it. That way they can keep their higher prices and still make the bigger profits in the long run.

fitprod 03-14-08 06:03 AM

Pioneer has been working on blue laser technology for over a decade, so they'd like to recoup some of those costs.

fitprod

Supermallet 03-14-08 06:16 AM

Ah, thanks for letting me know.

Mr. Cinema 03-14-08 07:55 AM

The price of the player is a one-time cost. Just like the HDTV. You'll end up spending more on software. Can people not save money to buy a player?

Regarding BD Lines, all I have been reading is major expansion. I don't think we're going to see a steady stream of BD-25s from Universal. I think the big releases (Bourne, American Gangster, etc) will get the same BD-50 treatment other studios have gotten with their A-list titles.


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