Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > DVD Discussions > HD Talk
Reload this Page >

Criterion says "no" to both BluRay and HDDVD

Community
Search
HD Talk The place to discuss Blu-ray, 4K and all other forms and formats of HD and HDTV.

Criterion says "no" to both BluRay and HDDVD

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 11-07-06 | 07:44 PM
  #201  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,084
Received 826 Likes on 576 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Needle
The mathematics are much less important than what the human eye perceives. After a point, twice the mathematical resolution does not mean a picture is perceived as being twice as good.
There are limits, but the human eye can tell the difference easily. My current TV is capable of displaying up to 720p, which is 3 times the resolution of SD TV. I can easily tell HD from SD. I may not be able to quantify it and say it looks exactly 3 times better, but it does look noticeably better. I've seen demos of HD DVD in stores on 1080p displays, and it looks noticeably than the HDTV cable broadcasts on my TV at home. Again, not quantifiable, but noticeable.

But people aren't as likely to pay double (or much more) for something that is not perceived as being at least twice as good.
For people that see full 1080p video, it's at least twice as good.

Remember that the NTSC standard was defined by the upper limits of what manufacturers were able to produce at the time in terms of resolution, not the upper limits of human perception.

I know no one that was not amazed at the difference in quality between VHS and S-DVD
Those people certainly existed, and there were no end of complaints from people that felt VHS was "good enough," and that they didn't want to move to a relatively new technology with a small catalog of titles. Sound familiar?

particularly considering the improvements in convenience, audio, and special features which HD-DVD improves on little if at all.
HD-DVD and BD improve on all of those features. For convenience, you have the ability of bringing up the menu and selecting features and extras without interupting playback of the film. For audio, you have dramatically better audio codecs, some allowing lossless compression so you don't lose audio quality like you do with the two main DVD codecs, DD and DTS. For special features, just the upgrade to them in HD is enough, although not all titles have that. Others have unique In Movie Experiences, which present extras in a way not seen on DVDs. You may argue the degree of the improvements, I see the audio as most significant, but they're all there.

Even old TV shows looked dramatically improved. [on DVD compared to VHS]
And yet, the jump from VHS to DVD wasn't as dramatic a jump in resolution as DVD to HD is. And even old TV shows will look dramatically improved.

This board is replete with those who claim nowhere near the same feeling about the jump from S-DVD to HD-DVD, myself included.
And most are making such claims with limited to no experience with the new formats. There were plenty that didn't see the difference between VHS and DVD as well, until they actually watched a few DVDs and then tried switching back. It's the ideal realization of the old axiom "you don't know what you're missing." In the case of those who can't afford an upgrade, that may actually be beneficial in an "ignorance is bliss" kind of way, because once you experience higher quality anything, it's always harder to downgrade.

Personally, from just HD over cable, I just itch for as much material as possible in HD. I can't afford either HD disc format right now, and ideally I'd like to wait until the format war has been decided, but it's clear that some form of HD delivery is the future, and there's no way DVD is going to be "good enough" to stay king of the video formats forever.
Old 11-07-06 | 07:58 PM
  #202  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From: Chicago, IL
Can I play Blu Ray or HD-DVD on my existing laptop DVD drive? No

Do I care to access special features during the movie. No

Isn't the menu one button away during the movie. Making chapter selection at most 2-3 clicks away Yes

Do I have assurances that my Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player will become the standardNo

Will the price for these players drop dramatically in the next 1-2 years Yes

Doesn't the copy protection on these new formats make it very hard to make legitimate back-ups for personal use Yes

= NO SALE AT THE MOMENT. I will let the studios decide on one format and then maybe, jusy maybe will I consider it after players drop to $100-$150.

Last edited by chanster; 11-07-06 at 08:01 PM.
Old 11-07-06 | 08:35 PM
  #203  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 11,957
Received 17 Likes on 14 Posts
From: Pa
Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
It's not VC1. It's avc.
Huh?
"For example, the main film is stored on the disc as both a VC-1 and MPEG-2 video, which allows the user to compare the quality of the formats."
Old 11-07-06 | 08:37 PM
  #204  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,084
Received 826 Likes on 576 Posts
Originally Posted by chanster
Can I play Blu Ray or HD-DVD on my existing laptop DVD drive? No
You couldn't play DVDs on your existing laptop when the format first came out either. You can buy an existing laptop that can play one of the formats though.

Do I care to access special features during the movie. No
Some people don't care about special features at all. The fact that you don't care about it though doesn't change the fact that it exists, and is an enhancement over the prevailing format at the time.

Isn't the menu one button away during the movie. Making chapter selection at most 2-3 clicks away Yes
Chapter selection is just one of the features provided. The new menu system will get much more versatile and enhanced over time.

Do I have assurances that my Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player will become the standardNo
To be fair, there was never the assurance that DVD would take off and replace both VHS and LD. It could've been the false-start that VCD turned out to be in the US, or S-VHS, or D-VHS, or DIVX.

There was also never any assurance that either of the two main recordable DVD variations would survive, DVD-R/W vs. DVD+R/W. Some predicted that one of the other would die off. In reality, both of them survived, with dual-format recorders and players becoming the norm.

Will the price for these players drop dramatically in the next 1-2 years Yes
That's not really an argument against the formats, that's just an argument about buying into one right now. DVD players have dropped dramatically in the past few years as well, did you wait until this year to buy your DVD player?

Each person has a different financial "limit" for buying into a new tech, based on a variety of factors. So while HD disc players haven't fallen under whatever arbitrary limit you have placed on them doesn't mean that they're bad formats.

Doesn't the copy protection on these new formats make it very hard to make legitimate back-ups for personal use Yes
Actually, no. The DRM schemes in use for HD DVD and BD allow for "Managed Copy" in their specs, meaning that limited copying of the material can be allowed, much like how DRM-protected audio files can be downloaded onto a limited and regulated number of authorized devices. The CSS encryption on DVD by contrast is much more restrictive.

Last edited by Jay G.; 11-07-06 at 08:40 PM.
Old 11-07-06 | 08:39 PM
  #205  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,182
Received 26 Likes on 20 Posts
From: Connecticut
I'd like to hear Criterion's logic to this rather than guess at it.

But one thing is clear, they see no strong reason to jump on one or both of these HD formats.

The same is true for me as a consumer.

I hear about the space capacity of the hi-def format and I see the reality of bare-bone HD releases.

I read about 1080p standards and I see the reality of display after display of HD sets being sold at 720p.

Yet, early adopters love to buy this stuff and more importantly talk up this stuff often suffering the consequences of their lack of patience .... first release titles and consoles of Blu-Ray anyone ....

If Criterion can wait so can I.
Old 11-07-06 | 08:45 PM
  #206  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,084
Received 826 Likes on 576 Posts
Originally Posted by ctyankee
I'd like to hear Criterion's logic to this rather than guess at it.
It was provided in a link in the very first post on this thread. The blog the link goes to has a newer post, pushing the relevant one down one, so here's the direct link to Criterion's blog post on the subject:

http://www.criterionco.com/blog/2006...59362318816373

And here it is quote in case it moves again:
November 3, 2006
Brass Tacks (and Brooches)
I don't know if it's the question we get asked most often or just the one that people ask with the greatest sense of urgency, but here it is: Where does Criterion stand on HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray Disc?

As you may have noticed, Jon Mulvaney has been under strict orders to duck the question, not only for reasons mentioned in Wednesday's post but also because, for the moment, ducking the question may be the only sensible thing to do. Consumers shouldn't have to take a stand in a format war. You shouldn't have to decide between a Casablanca player or one that plays Lawrence of Arabia. That either means buying two machines, which doesn't seem fair, or giving up on seeing some of the movies you love in HD, which doesn't seem like a good solution either. From Criterion's angle, the only answer would be to publish in both formats in order not to leave anyone out, but that would mean doubling our costs and keeping two sets of inventory, which would effectively make it impossible for us to publish the kinds of titles that, despite their modest sales, are critical to the Collection and its mission.

Don't get me wrong: we'd like nothing better than to have an HD disc marketplace emerge. We know how good our films can look in high definition, because we’ve been doing all our mastering and restoration in HD for years. I don't think any customer base will benefit more from the upgrade to HD than Criterion collectors with their discerning eyes, appreciation of the texture of the filmed image, etc. That said, I don't hear many people lamenting that they have no decent way to watch movies at home. No movie lover could keep up with the bounty of films that have been released on DVD, and most people I know still have plenty left to watch, whether in shrink-wrap on the shelf or waiting in their Netflix queues.

So in the end, while this is a hotly debated topic among consumers, it's not really a consumer problem. Whether it's a player that plays everything or a format that wins out or a compromise, any solution is going to have to come from the industry, and from much bigger players than Criterion. This isn't just a matter of quality or features. The format war has as much to do with patent licenses and pressing plants as it does with putting gorgeous images on your screen. At this point, any solution that would let consumers upgrade with confidence would be a step in the right direction, and as soon as that solution emerges, we'll be there. Meanwhile we are sticking to our knitting. There are too many important films still unavailable on DVD (more Mizoguchi, anyone?), and too many customers still waiting for those films, for us to spend time speculating. Just know that when Jon Mulvaney says, “As the formats continue to develop, we will decide which is the best way for us to proceed,” he's not avoiding giving an answer. That's the answer.
Old 11-07-06 | 08:54 PM
  #207  
Banned
 
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 15,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From: NYC
Originally Posted by DthRdrX
Huh?
On the HD DVD. NOT the download.
Old 11-07-06 | 08:54 PM
  #208  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
So I went ahead and downloaded several "1080p" trailers from quicktime.com and yep, this HD thing is for people with big displays.

It does look better, and I can see why videophiles with expensive equipment are so excited about it. For regular people though who just want to relax and watch a movie, regular DVDs are more than adequate. I'm happy with what I've got, and my extra money is better spent on books and other things like more DVDs.

Either way, enjoy what you've got.
If you want to blame someone for the public's lack of interest in the HD-DVD/BluRay market, blame the cable TV industry. The picture quality of their HD broadcasts are loaded with blurs, picture breakups, and artifacts, which leads the average viewer to believe that if they bought into HD-DVDs/BluRay DVDs, they would see the same quality...Joe Shmo doesn't know the difference between 1080i (pretty good improvement, but not enough to invest in new equipment) and 1080p (excellent improvement in picture quality, definitely looking into investing in new equipment).
Old 11-07-06 | 09:01 PM
  #209  
Drexl's Avatar
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 16,077
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
From: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted by Jay G.
Actually, no. The DRM schemes in use for HD DVD and BD allow for "Managed Copy" in their specs, meaning that limited copying of the material can be allowed, much like how DRM-protected audio files can be downloaded onto a limited and regulated number of authorized devices. The CSS encryption on DVD by contrast is much more restrictive.
Ah, but CSS has been cracked for a while now. That's why he can make backups. I don't doubt that for some, the lack of real copy protection is the biggest reason why they are so defensive about keeping DVD.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:03 PM
  #210  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,084
Received 826 Likes on 576 Posts
Originally Posted by ctyankee
But one thing is clear, they see no strong reason to jump on one or both of these HD formats.
As you can see from the article posted above, they see a lot of strong reasons to jump into the HD fray. Namely:

"I don't think any customer base will benefit more from the upgrade to HD than Criterion collectors with their discerning eyes, appreciation of the texture of the filmed image, etc."

The problem is they see a lot of problems with having two formats. It's all about the two competing formats for them.

I hear about the space capacity of the hi-def format and I see the reality of bare-bone HD releases.
Thats on a handful of titles on one format and only on the initial releases of another. Both have a number of extras-heavy discs, just like DVD. Also, studios still pump out a lot of bare-bones releases DVD .

I read about 1080p standards and I see the reality of display after display of HD sets being sold at 720p.
1080p displays exist out there today. Even with only a 720p display, that's still 3x the resolution of SD and very noticeable, while the 1080p storage on the disc means that your discs will automatically look better when you eventually upgrade your TV again. Think of 1080p as the "Anamorphic Enhancement" feature of HD discs.

Yet, early adopters love to buy this stuff and more importantly talk up this stuff often suffering the consequences of their lack of patience .... first release titles and consoles of Blu-Ray anyone ....
Early adopters are early adopters, and they know the risks. Even the Toshiba HD DVD players had major issues as initially released. However, only a few months later and HD DVD has exceeded all expectations in terms of quality, even factoring in for it being still 1st gen. Even the "crappy" Samsung Blu-Ray player has had firmware improvements, causing a lot of people to change their opinion of it.

I can understand waiting. There are issues of price, the question of the format war, and the understanding that there will be more and better titles and players in the future. However, I don't understand why some people are happy Criterion is waiting on the issue. All it really means is that instead of Criterion HD discs being there waiting for you when one eventually does upgrade, it may turn out that you'll have to wait for Criterion to show up to the party. I understand their position, and may even agree with it in a way, but I'm not really happy about it.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:06 PM
  #211  
Adam Tyner's Avatar
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 31,707
Received 2,803 Likes on 1,864 Posts
From: Greenville, South Cackalack
Originally Posted by Cocopugg
If you want to blame someone for the public's lack of interest in the HD-DVD/BluRay market, blame the cable TV industry.
I can't completely disagree with that. I use a cable provider that's notorious for overcompressing their channels, and the jump from cable HD to HD DVD was as dramatic as DVD to cable HD. Maybe even a little greater.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:20 PM
  #212  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 11,957
Received 17 Likes on 14 Posts
From: Pa
Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
On the HD DVD. NOT the download.
Lossless Video/Audio

Ok I know what you mean now. I can't find anything other than H.261 now on torrent sites either. A few websites were testing and comparing this title in VC-1, H.264, and Mpeg-2 using the lossless video/audio files, so I know they are out there somewhere. They also tested 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 subsampling for each.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:20 PM
  #213  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From: Atlanta, GA
I still don't see why I need to see 'A Christmas Story' in HD-DVD. Most of the movies just don't seem to warrant it. The bottom line is when Star Wars in on HD-DVD I'll convert over.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:27 PM
  #214  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,084
Received 826 Likes on 576 Posts
Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
So I went ahead and downloaded several "1080p" trailers from quicktime.com and yep, this HD thing is for people with big displays.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "big." While it's true that bigger displays will benefit more from the increase in resolution, I have a 26" HDTV and feel that I'm benefiting from HD content.

It does look better, and I can see why videophiles with expensive equipment are so excited about it. For regular people though who just want to relax and watch a movie, regular DVDs are more than adequate.
What's termed "expensive equipment for videophiles" changes with the times though. At one point, TVs over 20" were for videophiles, now tons of people have 50" TVs, which obviously would benefit with a boost to resolution. Likewise 5.1 audio was once regulated to audiophiles, but is now pretty much standard audio on nearly all DVDs.

I'm happy with what I've got, and my extra money is better spent on books and other things like more DVDs.
Let's take that quote back a generation:

"I'm happy with what I've got, and my extra money is better spent on books and other things like more VHS tapes."

Still agree with that sentence? The truth is that what's deemed "adequate" changes as newer and better technologies comes along. At one point, car phones were "more than adequate" for most of the people that saw a need for them, with lots of people not even being able to imagine ever needing a portable phone. Now most of us don't go anywhere without one. At one point, radio walkmens were "more than adequate," then portable cassette players, then CD players, and now Ipods and other mp3 players. Even now, we're starting to see cell-phones and mp3 players being combined for people's convenience, so they don't have to go through the hassle of carrying around two separate tiny devices. Arguing adequacy is just an ever upwards sliding scope. The truth is that if something provides enough of a benefit for a cheap enough price, everyone will eventually upgrade to it.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:30 PM
  #215  
PopcornTreeCt's Avatar
DVD Talk Hero
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 25,913
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
I think its quite funny how this "war" actually has people rooting for a side to win. Most people seem to want HD-DVD to win but all it takes for Blu-Ray to win is Disney (Pixar) + Star Wars. The HD-DVD format is gonna get slammed when the PS3 becomes more available.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:36 PM
  #216  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From: knoxville, tn
Originally Posted by Arpeggi
Worst movie ever, man.


That's just, like, your opinion, man.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:38 PM
  #217  
The Cow's Avatar
Premium Member
 
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 25,168
Received 1,217 Likes on 786 Posts
From: Grazing in a field somewhere...
Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
I think its quite funny how this "war" actually has people rooting for a side to win. Most people seem to want HD-DVD to win but all it takes for Blu-Ray to win is Disney (Pixar) + Star Wars. The HD-DVD format is gonna get slammed when the PS3 becomes more available.
Not until the titles are available. It's all about the titles.
Old 11-07-06 | 09:41 PM
  #218  
The Cow's Avatar
Premium Member
 
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 25,168
Received 1,217 Likes on 786 Posts
From: Grazing in a field somewhere...
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I can't completely disagree with that. I use a cable provider that's notorious for overcompressing their channels, and the jump from cable HD to HD DVD was as dramatic as DVD to cable HD. Maybe even a little greater.
I will go the other side... My HD cable (time-warner) looks awesome so far as I know.

And with 4 movie channels and most sporting events in HD (plus various network shows), I'm willing to wait out the format war that is still in it's infancy (this thing is just starting). At least until football/basketball season is over...
Old 11-07-06 | 09:48 PM
  #219  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,084
Received 826 Likes on 576 Posts
Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
The HD-DVD format is gonna get slammed when the PS3 becomes more available.
I think that any talk about which of the HD formats will win should probably stay over in to the "HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray Disc vs. Everything Else" thread over in HD Talk:
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=481878

This thread is primarily about DVD vs. any HD format, and Criterion's current and possible future support of the formats, and has generated lots of discussion by itself. Bringing a topic that's inspired 5 threads of its own into it seems like a bad idea to me.

Last edited by Jay G.; 11-07-06 at 09:59 PM.
Old 11-07-06 | 10:04 PM
  #220  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,510
Received 1,529 Likes on 1,024 Posts
From: Hamilton, Ontario
While I see a big difference between DVD and HD DVD quality, I can understand when people say "DVD is good enough for me" and I have trouble understanding why the "videophiles" take objection to that.
I wonder if these videophiles have upgraded to SACD or DVD-A. If not, why? There's definitely a difference in sound quality. Maybe they don't think it's worth it, and that CD is "good enough"? Seems like the same sort of thing.

Some people have different priorities and standards, and we see this in all types of purchases.
Old 11-07-06 | 10:12 PM
  #221  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,218
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
From: Dark City
Originally Posted by Bill Needle
There's something about the way you put "We have..." that frankly gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Me too and I'm into HD DVD.
Old 11-07-06 | 10:16 PM
  #222  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,084
Received 826 Likes on 576 Posts
Originally Posted by Kerborus
I still don't see why I need to see 'A Christmas Story' in HD-DVD.
There were probably some people that didn't see why they "needed" to have 'A Christmas Story' in anamorphic video on DVD. Judgment of which films really warrant an upgrade is subjective to say the least. What's not subjective is that nearly anything shot on film will benefit from an upgrade to HD.

Personally, I'd love to see 'A Christmas Story' in HD.
Old 11-07-06 | 10:28 PM
  #223  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,218
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
From: Dark City
I'm wondering how many people in this thread that are saying "DVD is good enough" have HDTV's? I can definitely understand the reluctance to buy into the new formats if it took having to add the cost of a TV and/or a receiver to go along with it.
Old 11-07-06 | 10:32 PM
  #224  
speedyray's Avatar
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From: Kingston, TN
This thread has become pointless, the only purpose it will end up serving is in a year or two when the herd has migrated, we can point out to people raving about their new shiney HD disc that "DVD was good enough for them." In the end I truly believe that we will end up with combo players and both formats will survive. If Pioneer ends up making a combo player for Gen 2 as some have rumored, Sony and Toshiba are in trouble - the combo drives will bombard the market if a major brand goes that direction.
Old 11-07-06 | 11:15 PM
  #225  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From: Malvern, PA
Originally Posted by Walter Neff
It seems like almost everyone posting here is in one of two camps:

1) People who, while thinking HD is better than SD and would like to start supporting an HD format, don't want to get stuck buying equipment and a bunch of movies in a format that will soon be abandoned, in much the same way as happened to the Betamax format. For some of these people it may be a financial decision, and for some it may be an ideological one.

2) People who think HD is such a major improvement over SD that they don't want to wait until one format wins. Some think that all the people sitting on the fence are preventing one format from winning, so they've already made the leap themselves. Most people in the second camp think people in the first camp are luddites.

Have I about summed it up? I'm definitely in the first camp myself. Plus, I still think SD DVDs are still pretty cool. I'm not that jaded yet...
I'm happy to join you in Camp 1.


Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.