Criterion says "no" to both BluRay and HDDVD
#201
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Originally Posted by Bill Needle
The mathematics are much less important than what the human eye perceives. After a point, twice the mathematical resolution does not mean a picture is perceived as being twice as good.
But people aren't as likely to pay double (or much more) for something that is not perceived as being at least twice as good.
Remember that the NTSC standard was defined by the upper limits of what manufacturers were able to produce at the time in terms of resolution, not the upper limits of human perception.
I know no one that was not amazed at the difference in quality between VHS and S-DVD
particularly considering the improvements in convenience, audio, and special features which HD-DVD improves on little if at all.
Even old TV shows looked dramatically improved. [on DVD compared to VHS]
This board is replete with those who claim nowhere near the same feeling about the jump from S-DVD to HD-DVD, myself included.
Personally, from just HD over cable, I just itch for as much material as possible in HD. I can't afford either HD disc format right now, and ideally I'd like to wait until the format war has been decided, but it's clear that some form of HD delivery is the future, and there's no way DVD is going to be "good enough" to stay king of the video formats forever.
#202
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Can I play Blu Ray or HD-DVD on my existing laptop DVD drive? No
Do I care to access special features during the movie. No
Isn't the menu one button away during the movie. Making chapter selection at most 2-3 clicks away Yes
Do I have assurances that my Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player will become the standardNo
Will the price for these players drop dramatically in the next 1-2 years Yes
Doesn't the copy protection on these new formats make it very hard to make legitimate back-ups for personal use Yes
= NO SALE AT THE MOMENT. I will let the studios decide on one format and then maybe, jusy maybe will I consider it after players drop to $100-$150.
Do I care to access special features during the movie. No
Isn't the menu one button away during the movie. Making chapter selection at most 2-3 clicks away Yes
Do I have assurances that my Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player will become the standardNo
Will the price for these players drop dramatically in the next 1-2 years Yes
Doesn't the copy protection on these new formats make it very hard to make legitimate back-ups for personal use Yes
= NO SALE AT THE MOMENT. I will let the studios decide on one format and then maybe, jusy maybe will I consider it after players drop to $100-$150.
Last edited by chanster; 11-07-06 at 08:01 PM.
#203
Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
It's not VC1. It's avc.
"For example, the main film is stored on the disc as both a VC-1 and MPEG-2 video, which allows the user to compare the quality of the formats."
#204
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by chanster
Can I play Blu Ray or HD-DVD on my existing laptop DVD drive? No
Do I care to access special features during the movie. No
Isn't the menu one button away during the movie. Making chapter selection at most 2-3 clicks away Yes
Do I have assurances that my Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player will become the standardNo
There was also never any assurance that either of the two main recordable DVD variations would survive, DVD-R/W vs. DVD+R/W. Some predicted that one of the other would die off. In reality, both of them survived, with dual-format recorders and players becoming the norm.
Will the price for these players drop dramatically in the next 1-2 years Yes
Each person has a different financial "limit" for buying into a new tech, based on a variety of factors. So while HD disc players haven't fallen under whatever arbitrary limit you have placed on them doesn't mean that they're bad formats.
Doesn't the copy protection on these new formats make it very hard to make legitimate back-ups for personal use Yes
Last edited by Jay G.; 11-07-06 at 08:40 PM.
#205
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I'd like to hear Criterion's logic to this rather than guess at it.
But one thing is clear, they see no strong reason to jump on one or both of these HD formats.
The same is true for me as a consumer.
I hear about the space capacity of the hi-def format and I see the reality of bare-bone HD releases.
I read about 1080p standards and I see the reality of display after display of HD sets being sold at 720p.
Yet, early adopters love to buy this stuff and more importantly talk up this stuff often suffering the consequences of their lack of patience .... first release titles and consoles of Blu-Ray anyone ....
If Criterion can wait so can I.
But one thing is clear, they see no strong reason to jump on one or both of these HD formats.
The same is true for me as a consumer.
I hear about the space capacity of the hi-def format and I see the reality of bare-bone HD releases.
I read about 1080p standards and I see the reality of display after display of HD sets being sold at 720p.
Yet, early adopters love to buy this stuff and more importantly talk up this stuff often suffering the consequences of their lack of patience .... first release titles and consoles of Blu-Ray anyone ....
If Criterion can wait so can I.
#206
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by ctyankee
I'd like to hear Criterion's logic to this rather than guess at it.
http://www.criterionco.com/blog/2006...59362318816373
And here it is quote in case it moves again:
November 3, 2006
Brass Tacks (and Brooches)
I don't know if it's the question we get asked most often or just the one that people ask with the greatest sense of urgency, but here it is: Where does Criterion stand on HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray Disc?
As you may have noticed, Jon Mulvaney has been under strict orders to duck the question, not only for reasons mentioned in Wednesday's post but also because, for the moment, ducking the question may be the only sensible thing to do. Consumers shouldn't have to take a stand in a format war. You shouldn't have to decide between a Casablanca player or one that plays Lawrence of Arabia. That either means buying two machines, which doesn't seem fair, or giving up on seeing some of the movies you love in HD, which doesn't seem like a good solution either. From Criterion's angle, the only answer would be to publish in both formats in order not to leave anyone out, but that would mean doubling our costs and keeping two sets of inventory, which would effectively make it impossible for us to publish the kinds of titles that, despite their modest sales, are critical to the Collection and its mission.
Don't get me wrong: we'd like nothing better than to have an HD disc marketplace emerge. We know how good our films can look in high definition, because we’ve been doing all our mastering and restoration in HD for years. I don't think any customer base will benefit more from the upgrade to HD than Criterion collectors with their discerning eyes, appreciation of the texture of the filmed image, etc. That said, I don't hear many people lamenting that they have no decent way to watch movies at home. No movie lover could keep up with the bounty of films that have been released on DVD, and most people I know still have plenty left to watch, whether in shrink-wrap on the shelf or waiting in their Netflix queues.
So in the end, while this is a hotly debated topic among consumers, it's not really a consumer problem. Whether it's a player that plays everything or a format that wins out or a compromise, any solution is going to have to come from the industry, and from much bigger players than Criterion. This isn't just a matter of quality or features. The format war has as much to do with patent licenses and pressing plants as it does with putting gorgeous images on your screen. At this point, any solution that would let consumers upgrade with confidence would be a step in the right direction, and as soon as that solution emerges, we'll be there. Meanwhile we are sticking to our knitting. There are too many important films still unavailable on DVD (more Mizoguchi, anyone?), and too many customers still waiting for those films, for us to spend time speculating. Just know that when Jon Mulvaney says, “As the formats continue to develop, we will decide which is the best way for us to proceed,” he's not avoiding giving an answer. That's the answer.
Brass Tacks (and Brooches)
I don't know if it's the question we get asked most often or just the one that people ask with the greatest sense of urgency, but here it is: Where does Criterion stand on HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray Disc?
As you may have noticed, Jon Mulvaney has been under strict orders to duck the question, not only for reasons mentioned in Wednesday's post but also because, for the moment, ducking the question may be the only sensible thing to do. Consumers shouldn't have to take a stand in a format war. You shouldn't have to decide between a Casablanca player or one that plays Lawrence of Arabia. That either means buying two machines, which doesn't seem fair, or giving up on seeing some of the movies you love in HD, which doesn't seem like a good solution either. From Criterion's angle, the only answer would be to publish in both formats in order not to leave anyone out, but that would mean doubling our costs and keeping two sets of inventory, which would effectively make it impossible for us to publish the kinds of titles that, despite their modest sales, are critical to the Collection and its mission.
Don't get me wrong: we'd like nothing better than to have an HD disc marketplace emerge. We know how good our films can look in high definition, because we’ve been doing all our mastering and restoration in HD for years. I don't think any customer base will benefit more from the upgrade to HD than Criterion collectors with their discerning eyes, appreciation of the texture of the filmed image, etc. That said, I don't hear many people lamenting that they have no decent way to watch movies at home. No movie lover could keep up with the bounty of films that have been released on DVD, and most people I know still have plenty left to watch, whether in shrink-wrap on the shelf or waiting in their Netflix queues.
So in the end, while this is a hotly debated topic among consumers, it's not really a consumer problem. Whether it's a player that plays everything or a format that wins out or a compromise, any solution is going to have to come from the industry, and from much bigger players than Criterion. This isn't just a matter of quality or features. The format war has as much to do with patent licenses and pressing plants as it does with putting gorgeous images on your screen. At this point, any solution that would let consumers upgrade with confidence would be a step in the right direction, and as soon as that solution emerges, we'll be there. Meanwhile we are sticking to our knitting. There are too many important films still unavailable on DVD (more Mizoguchi, anyone?), and too many customers still waiting for those films, for us to spend time speculating. Just know that when Jon Mulvaney says, “As the formats continue to develop, we will decide which is the best way for us to proceed,” he's not avoiding giving an answer. That's the answer.
#208
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
So I went ahead and downloaded several "1080p" trailers from quicktime.com and yep, this HD thing is for people with big displays.
It does look better, and I can see why videophiles with expensive equipment are so excited about it. For regular people though who just want to relax and watch a movie, regular DVDs are more than adequate. I'm happy with what I've got, and my extra money is better spent on books and other things like more DVDs.
Either way, enjoy what you've got.
It does look better, and I can see why videophiles with expensive equipment are so excited about it. For regular people though who just want to relax and watch a movie, regular DVDs are more than adequate. I'm happy with what I've got, and my extra money is better spent on books and other things like more DVDs.

Either way, enjoy what you've got.

#209
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Jay G.
Actually, no. The DRM schemes in use for HD DVD and BD allow for "Managed Copy" in their specs, meaning that limited copying of the material can be allowed, much like how DRM-protected audio files can be downloaded onto a limited and regulated number of authorized devices. The CSS encryption on DVD by contrast is much more restrictive.
#210
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by ctyankee
But one thing is clear, they see no strong reason to jump on one or both of these HD formats.
"I don't think any customer base will benefit more from the upgrade to HD than Criterion collectors with their discerning eyes, appreciation of the texture of the filmed image, etc."
The problem is they see a lot of problems with having two formats. It's all about the two competing formats for them.
I hear about the space capacity of the hi-def format and I see the reality of bare-bone HD releases.
I read about 1080p standards and I see the reality of display after display of HD sets being sold at 720p.
Yet, early adopters love to buy this stuff and more importantly talk up this stuff often suffering the consequences of their lack of patience .... first release titles and consoles of Blu-Ray anyone ....
I can understand waiting. There are issues of price, the question of the format war, and the understanding that there will be more and better titles and players in the future. However, I don't understand why some people are happy Criterion is waiting on the issue. All it really means is that instead of Criterion HD discs being there waiting for you when one eventually does upgrade, it may turn out that you'll have to wait for Criterion to show up to the party. I understand their position, and may even agree with it in a way, but I'm not really happy about it.
#211
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From: Greenville, South Cackalack
Originally Posted by Cocopugg
If you want to blame someone for the public's lack of interest in the HD-DVD/BluRay market, blame the cable TV industry.
#212
Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
On the HD DVD. NOT the download.
Ok I know what you mean now. I can't find anything other than H.261 now on torrent sites either. A few websites were testing and comparing this title in VC-1, H.264, and Mpeg-2 using the lossless video/audio files, so I know they are out there somewhere. They also tested 4:4:4 and 4:2:0 subsampling for each.
#213
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I still don't see why I need to see 'A Christmas Story' in HD-DVD. Most of the movies just don't seem to warrant it. The bottom line is when Star Wars in on HD-DVD I'll convert over.
#214
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
So I went ahead and downloaded several "1080p" trailers from quicktime.com and yep, this HD thing is for people with big displays.
It does look better, and I can see why videophiles with expensive equipment are so excited about it. For regular people though who just want to relax and watch a movie, regular DVDs are more than adequate.
I'm happy with what I've got, and my extra money is better spent on books and other things like more DVDs.
"I'm happy with what I've got, and my extra money is better spent on books and other things like more VHS tapes."
Still agree with that sentence? The truth is that what's deemed "adequate" changes as newer and better technologies comes along. At one point, car phones were "more than adequate" for most of the people that saw a need for them, with lots of people not even being able to imagine ever needing a portable phone. Now most of us don't go anywhere without one. At one point, radio walkmens were "more than adequate," then portable cassette players, then CD players, and now Ipods and other mp3 players. Even now, we're starting to see cell-phones and mp3 players being combined for people's convenience, so they don't have to go through the hassle of carrying around two separate tiny devices. Arguing adequacy is just an ever upwards sliding scope. The truth is that if something provides enough of a benefit for a cheap enough price, everyone will eventually upgrade to it.
#215
I think its quite funny how this "war" actually has people rooting for a side to win. Most people seem to want HD-DVD to win but all it takes for Blu-Ray to win is Disney (Pixar) + Star Wars. The HD-DVD format is gonna get slammed when the PS3 becomes more available.
#217
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From: Grazing in a field somewhere...
Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
I think its quite funny how this "war" actually has people rooting for a side to win. Most people seem to want HD-DVD to win but all it takes for Blu-Ray to win is Disney (Pixar) + Star Wars. The HD-DVD format is gonna get slammed when the PS3 becomes more available.
#218
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From: Grazing in a field somewhere...
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I can't completely disagree with that. I use a cable provider that's notorious for overcompressing their channels, and the jump from cable HD to HD DVD was as dramatic as DVD to cable HD. Maybe even a little greater.
And with 4 movie channels and most sporting events in HD (plus various network shows), I'm willing to wait out the format war that is still in it's infancy (this thing is just starting). At least until football/basketball season is over...
#219
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Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
The HD-DVD format is gonna get slammed when the PS3 becomes more available.
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=481878
This thread is primarily about DVD vs. any HD format, and Criterion's current and possible future support of the formats, and has generated lots of discussion by itself. Bringing a topic that's inspired 5 threads of its own into it seems like a bad idea to me.
Last edited by Jay G.; 11-07-06 at 09:59 PM.
#220
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While I see a big difference between DVD and HD DVD quality, I can understand when people say "DVD is good enough for me" and I have trouble understanding why the "videophiles" take objection to that.
I wonder if these videophiles have upgraded to SACD or DVD-A. If not, why? There's definitely a difference in sound quality. Maybe they don't think it's worth it, and that CD is "good enough"? Seems like the same sort of thing.
Some people have different priorities and standards, and we see this in all types of purchases.
I wonder if these videophiles have upgraded to SACD or DVD-A. If not, why? There's definitely a difference in sound quality. Maybe they don't think it's worth it, and that CD is "good enough"? Seems like the same sort of thing.
Some people have different priorities and standards, and we see this in all types of purchases.
#222
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Originally Posted by Kerborus
I still don't see why I need to see 'A Christmas Story' in HD-DVD.
Personally, I'd love to see 'A Christmas Story' in HD.
#223
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
I'm wondering how many people in this thread that are saying "DVD is good enough" have HDTV's? I can definitely understand the reluctance to buy into the new formats if it took having to add the cost of a TV and/or a receiver to go along with it.
#224
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This thread has become pointless, the only purpose it will end up serving is in a year or two when the herd has migrated, we can point out to people raving about their new shiney HD disc that "DVD was good enough for them." In the end I truly believe that we will end up with combo players and both formats will survive. If Pioneer ends up making a combo player for Gen 2 as some have rumored, Sony and Toshiba are in trouble - the combo drives will bombard the market if a major brand goes that direction.
#225
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From: Malvern, PA
Originally Posted by Walter Neff
It seems like almost everyone posting here is in one of two camps:
1) People who, while thinking HD is better than SD and would like to start supporting an HD format, don't want to get stuck buying equipment and a bunch of movies in a format that will soon be abandoned, in much the same way as happened to the Betamax format. For some of these people it may be a financial decision, and for some it may be an ideological one.
2) People who think HD is such a major improvement over SD that they don't want to wait until one format wins. Some think that all the people sitting on the fence are preventing one format from winning, so they've already made the leap themselves. Most people in the second camp think people in the first camp are luddites.
Have I about summed it up? I'm definitely in the first camp myself. Plus, I still think SD DVDs are still pretty cool. I'm not that jaded yet...
1) People who, while thinking HD is better than SD and would like to start supporting an HD format, don't want to get stuck buying equipment and a bunch of movies in a format that will soon be abandoned, in much the same way as happened to the Betamax format. For some of these people it may be a financial decision, and for some it may be an ideological one.
2) People who think HD is such a major improvement over SD that they don't want to wait until one format wins. Some think that all the people sitting on the fence are preventing one format from winning, so they've already made the leap themselves. Most people in the second camp think people in the first camp are luddites.
Have I about summed it up? I'm definitely in the first camp myself. Plus, I still think SD DVDs are still pretty cool. I'm not that jaded yet...




