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HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray vs. everything else free-for-all: Round two

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HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray vs. everything else free-for-all: Round two

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Old 08-16-06 | 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
With a suggested retail of $48 per disc, what the hell are the movies going to cost???
Actually about $20. And that's the real problem for Blu-ray. No one argues that BD is cheaper or easier to build than HD DVD. Yet the retail prices for the BD discs has fallen since release (due to lower demand, I'd guess). That spells real trouble. The wholesale cost is higher, yet they sell for less... what's the incentive to keep producing a product with those characteristics?
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Old 08-16-06 | 03:07 PM
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Not the same thing.

There is a protective coating on pre-recorded DL BD media that is causing problems. I doubt that blanks will have this feature, unless the recorder adds this layer after burning (not likely).
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Old 08-16-06 | 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by awmurray
If it were so simple you would think we'd have already seen them since recordable BD50 has been available in Japan for 5 years (albeit in a caddy).
You know I keep hearing this "five years" thing here and there but as far as I know, Blu-Ray (caddies) debuted April of 2003. That's barely three years.

Something else I read (somewhere) was that there was another Sony tech which they called Blu-Ray but was much older. It had nothing to do with today's Blu-Ray. I don't remember where I read this (AVS?), unfortunately.
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Old 08-16-06 | 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
Not the same thing.

There is a protective coating on pre-recorded DL BD media that is causing problems. I doubt that blanks will have this feature, unless the recorder adds this layer after burning (not likely).
That's silly, though. Obviously, this is a clear coating as the laser needs to penetrate the material to be able to read the media. If it can read the media through the Durabis coating, I'd presume that it can write to it too. A laser is a laser, after all.

Also, TDK's Durabis2 coating is on their blank media.
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Old 08-16-06 | 03:39 PM
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From what I heard, Durabis 2 was just another "sony promise" that they're not following through with.
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Old 08-16-06 | 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
From what I heard, Durabis 2 was just another "sony promise" that they're not following through with.


It's TDK's tech.
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Old 08-16-06 | 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus


It's TDK's tech.
They're not putting it on discs. I don't know what they're doing for the recordable discs but it ain't on BD-ROM discs.
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Old 08-16-06 | 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
They're not putting it on discs. I don't know what they're doing for the recordable discs but it ain't on BD-ROM discs.
Just because Sony is not using TDK's product does not mean the product is bad.

Case in point: VC-1.
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Old 08-16-06 | 04:09 PM
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I don't think he was implying that the product was bad, just that Sony wasn't using it like they said the would.
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Old 08-16-06 | 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Hinkle
I don't think he was implying that the product was bad, just that Sony wasn't using it like they said the would.
Duh.

Talk about putting words in my mouth.
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Old 08-16-06 | 11:13 PM
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This is from a Sony dealer on AVS.
Fucking amazing.

Just got home from Sony dealer training. The portion devoted to Blu-ray was long on talk, short on substance. Basically, rehashing the same song and dance as the past year with not much to show for it. Still touting the same specs without revealing the now well-known production issues (which I expected).

There was a single BDP-S1 Blu-ray player being used for the actual Blu-ray demo. It was a prototype that the trainer had to admit was not able to play a commercial blu-ray disc. Output was limited to 1080i. The only disc he would/could play was demo clips. The player was not turned off or the disc stopped while we were in the room. Other demos for TVs were using the Japanese BD-ROM player that has been around a while. Only playing clips, no commercial discs.

This is as of August 15th.

I asked about disc replication issues. I could best describe the response of the trainer as "deer in the headlights" followed by quizical consternation. In other words, like a good soldier, when confronted with undeniable negative data, play dumb.

After some five years of developement with prototypes now over a year old, Sony still can't produce a commercially viable player that conforms to the BD spec, there is that little issue of some 60% or more failure rate for single layer BD discs and dual layer BD not even producable in commercial quantity.

Negative feedback was not even hinted at. All they wanted to do was blow sunshine up our..., well, you know. They are still making a huge issue out of PS3. They are telling dealers that PS3 will be the key to Blu-ray's success, will make us all a lot of money, and bring world peace.
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Old 08-16-06 | 11:31 PM
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Sweet...world peace.
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Old 08-17-06 | 01:01 AM
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I think world peace is only included in the $599 model. The $499 just gets you peace in the Balkans, but you may be able to upgrade later.
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Old 08-17-06 | 01:28 AM
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Old 08-17-06 | 09:27 AM
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Way off topic.....

Kind of sucks we regular folk can't have avatars.

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Old 08-17-06 | 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
That's silly, though. Obviously, this is a clear coating as the laser needs to penetrate the material to be able to read the media. If it can read the media through the Durabis coating, I'd presume that it can write to it too. A laser is a laser, after all.

Also, TDK's Durabis2 coating is on their blank media.
I think I was bit unclear. I wasn't talking about Durabis II. One of the final steps in producing the pre-recorded media is adding a layer to the disc to protect the data layer, which, unlike DVD, CD and HD-DVD, is very close to the top. From reports, this layer or coat or whatever you want to call it is causing disc read problems and lowering usable media yields signifigantly.
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Old 08-17-06 | 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by candyrocket786
Kind of sucks we regular folk can't have avatars.
Actually, I say it's good to avoid animated stuff like that.. but that's just me.
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Old 08-17-06 | 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by XavierMike
I think world peace is only included in the $599 model. The $499 just gets you peace in the Balkans, but you may be able to upgrade later.
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Old 08-17-06 | 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by penguin42
As much as I would like to respect the opinions of others, it's impossible if their argument is completely irrational.

This website thinks blu ray will win. But wait until you read why Blu Ray will win!

http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/16/why-blu-ray-will-win/

I havn't laughed that hard in a while. I'm hoping that whoever wrote that got a nice paycheck from Sony.
Hey, the author of that article is much less gung-ho about Blu-ray on AVS.

He is discussing that very article in this thread: Another Why BD will win article : HDBeat.

It is pretty interesting. Amirm is involved... pretty good read. He starts responding in post #6 (bdraw is the username).
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Old 08-17-06 | 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by awmurray
Hey, the author of that article is much less gung-ho about Blu-ray on AVS.

He is discussing that very article in this thread: Another Why BD will win article : HDBeat.

It is pretty interesting. Amirm is involved... pretty good read. He starts responding in post #6 (bdraw is the username).
Gotta love Amir. His post in that thread on the 2nd page is fantastic.

But Ben, that is not news. And recent history shows that more support doesn't mean better delivery of what people are looking for: excellence in audio, video and interactivity. Fewer companies can move much faster and more efficiently to build a format. The original CD format was owned and developed by two companies: Sony and Philips. BDA with so many members and agendas, moves slowly.

And membership there doesn't translate to products that move the needle. Or for that matter, real products. Look at Thomson who has shipped HD DVD players, not BD.

Let's look at Dell. All last year they were practically the spokesperson for BDA, talking about how great BD format was. But here we are, with no BD product from them where as LG, Acer, Fujitsu and Toshiba have all shipped HD DVD laptops.

Of significant note is that the three core companies in BDA, Sony/Philips/Panasonic, have not shipped any products. And Sony will OEM a player from another company. Or aggressiveness in pricing them. This speaks volumes to the prospects of the format in the eyes of their business decision makers, not their standards setting folks.

And we have companies like HP who was the marketing leader for BD format but later decided to also support HD DVD. So things change.

A year ago when we threw our support behind HD DVD, people thought it would not matter and that with all the “support” behind BDA, HD DVD was as good as dead. Indeed, there were polls created here asking if this were true, and majority said yes. But the same poll has the opposite results now.

Fact is that great execution matters more than the army of people behind you. It pains me to point this out but Apple has done very well with the iPod against the mass of traditional CE companies. We are not Apple and I don’t mean to imply that these analogies are the same. But it is important to know that HD DVD is real, and can do the job exceptionally well. And we have proven that we can deliver exceptional audio and video in HD DVD-30.

Yes, BD-50 is an important thing for BD to get done from marketing point of view. But reality is that with advanced codecs, the only use of that extra 20 gigabytes is to fill it with even more extras. But if the upcoming release of MI3 is any indication, the market values two HD DVD discs more than a single BD-50 discs that may even cost more. Indeed that releases uses two BD-25 discs.

It may not be an attractive thing to say but the outcome of this “war” currently is that both formats will live on. Studios will eventually support both at which point, the consumer will not care about the war. And yes, I am including Sony in this list. Recall that they eventually supported the VHS format…
Sorry for resposting the whole thing. I just think that everything he says is on target and since he's an "official" source, it's nice to hear it from one of them.

Last edited by digitalfreaknyc; 08-17-06 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 08-17-06 | 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Amir via dfnyc
But if the upcoming release of MI3 is any indication, the market values two HD DVD discs more than a single BD-50 discs that may even cost more.
That's spot on. You think Criterion's version of Brazil could sell for $50 if it was on one disc?

To consumers 2 discs equals "value" -- if I am at the store looking at the B for Beretta: Collectorgasmic Edition and I see it has two commentaries, deleted scenes, and features, that doesn't tell me as much as it being two or three discs. As a B for Beretta Maniak(tm) I would buy the more discy release.

Now, that idea may change, but for the past ten years, "More than 1 disc" = better value.
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Old 08-17-06 | 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by stanrozenfeld
Now, here is an article that seems to claim that blu-ray is actually outselling hd dvd!

http://www.homemediaretailing.com/ne...rticle_ID=9539

It boggles the mind! It just seems to contradict every piece of anecdotal evidence that we have.

Any comments?

Stan
I emailed the author and told her the article seemed to be a bit unclear. She's re-written it:

http://www.homemediaretailing.com/ne...rticle_id=9539

Comparing both formats’ first six weeks of launch, HD DVD player sales, which began in April, outsold Blu-ray players, which launched in June, by 33%.

But Blu-ray’s first six weeks of launch, thanks to its higher-priced players, raked in 42% more revenue than HD DVD hardware did during its first six weeks out.

Blu-ray’s singular player on the market is a $999 model from Samsung.

The report also compared the two formats’ performance during a short time they have both been available, the six weeks ended July 29.

Based on that time frame, Blu-ray led the next-generation market with a 54% share of hardware units sold and a 69% revenue share, according to NPD data.
So...

HD-DVD's launch was better than Blu-Ray's launch. But, during the first three weeks of the Blu-Ray launch, it sold more than HD-DVD was selling at the time. In the final three weeks, HD-DVD outpaced Blu-Ray again, but not enough to be the victor overall during that 6-week period.

Again...

HD-DVD's launch sold more hardware than Blu-Ray's launch.
During weeks 1 to 3 that both formats were available, Blu-Ray outsold HD-DVD.
During weeks 4 to 6 that both formats were available, HD-DVD outsold Blu-Ray.
During weeks 1 to 6 that both formats were available, Blu Ray outsold HD-DVD (winning 54% share).
During weeks 1 to 6 that both formats were available, regular DVD players outsold HD/BR players 259 to 1.

Blu-Ray was responsible for higher revenues.

There is no publicly released retailer margin or profit data (in that article).
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Old 08-17-06 | 04:29 PM
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Another "review" of the new Sony machine from AVS:

I just saw a demo of Sony's new player at a Sony showroom in Tampa. I was totally underwhelmed by what I saw. The quality of the video was not as good as you get from HBOHD, and that is faint praise at best. I wouldn't pay $500 for the player with that format, much less a $1,000.
Let me guess...if this doesn't work out...the PS3 and the Pioneer will save BD?
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Old 08-17-06 | 04:37 PM
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Just out of curiosity I was looking at (unreliable) Amazon sales data from Amazon.co.jp...

First off, they don't even list the Toshiba HD-A1. (They do have the HD-XA1). But they do have this lovely little monster:



It's Toshiba's set-top HD-DVD burner slash 1TB DVR - yup, 1,099,511,627,776 bytes. I think it can record like 50 days of SD programming. The best part? It's "sales rank" is around #11,000... Meanwhile, player ranks for HD/BR players here are regularly above 11,000.

Oh... Japan.
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Old 08-17-06 | 05:28 PM
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Only $3300.

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