HD/Blu-Ray Talks Break Down :( Blu-Ray wins? [merged]
09-20-05, 09:35 AM
#151
Retired
Sony will take a big loss on the PS3 to get it into homes. How big a loss they are willing to take will determine the final price.
Personally, I'd be shocked if they launched at more than $399 (the cost of the full X-box 360 pack). I don't think they're stupid enough to launch at more than the competition.
I wouldn't be shocked if they launched at $349-299 either, especially if Microsoft drops the price on the X-box 360 around the PS3 launch.
Personally, I'd be shocked if they launched at more than $399 (the cost of the full X-box 360 pack). I don't think they're stupid enough to launch at more than the competition.
I wouldn't be shocked if they launched at $349-299 either, especially if Microsoft drops the price on the X-box 360 around the PS3 launch.
09-20-05, 11:44 AM
#152
Retired
Here's a related post from the X-box 360 thread in the Video Game forum.
Originally Posted by tylatz
A Sony official has already stated that they believe they can keep their system below $360 at launch. The exact figure he gave was in yen so this may vary based on exchange rate fluctuations and the roundness of the number. They may be able to sell at the $349.99 mark which would really push Microsoft on the price drop and maybe entice them to throw in something extra.
I don't have a link for the reference, but I believe I can find it if anyone wants it.
I don't have a link for the reference, but I believe I can find it if anyone wants it.
09-27-05, 01:28 PM
#153
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Get ready for Microsoft Windows HD DVD
SAN JOSE, Calif. - Intel Corp. and Microsoft Corp., the leading suppliers of chips and software for most of the world's personal computers, are throwing their support behind the next-generation DVD standard known as HD DVD.
After taking a neutral stance for months in the battle between the competing HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats, the companies said Tuesday they have joined the HD DVD Promotion Group that includes Toshiba Corp., Universal Studios and others.
The move means upcoming PCs running Microsoft's upcoming Windows Vista operating system or Intel's Viiv entertainment technology will come with support for HD DVD drives.
"We want to make sure that whatever is put out on the market is going to be as consumer friendly as possible from the price and usability point of view," said Blair Westlake, vice president of Microsoft's Media/Entertainment and Technology Convergence Group.
The decision by Microsoft and Intel pits the two largest makers of equipment for PCs against many of the companies that build and sell computers. Blu-ray is backed by Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news)., Apple Computer Inc., Hewlett-Packard Co. and Dell Inc., along with a variety of other tech companies and studios.
"We don't see this announcement as anything that will shift the momentum that Blu-ray Disc has experienced," said Josh Peterson, HP's director of strategic alliances and a Blu-ray spokesman.
It was not clear how Microsoft and Intel's move would affect the stance of computer makers, but the PC industry has managed to skirt confusion over dueling standards in the past by offering drives that can handle multiple formats.
Efforts so far to merge the standards into a single format have gone nowhere as tech companies and studios have divided into the two camps. Analysts say consumers are likely to stick with standard DVDs until there is a resolution.
Though Intel and Microsoft's action gives the HD DVD group additional muscle, it does not deal a knockout blow to Blu-ray.
"We have no plans to build native Windows support for Blu-ray or other HD formats," said Jordi Ribas, technical strategy director for Microsoft's Windows Digital Media Division. "That doesn't mean third parties could not build that support on their own."
HD DVD will offer consumers the ability to keep on their PCs a copy of a movie that can be streamed to other devices in the home. It also allows studios to store high definition and standard versions of a movie on a disk.
Westlake also said the HD DVD camp has made inroads with manufacturers in China, where most of the world's DVD players are currently built. Without that support, it would be difficult to quickly deploy the technology at a low price.
"(Blu-ray) does not have that relationship and we're concerned about whether that offering of Chinese players will be there. We know HD DVD will be," Westlake said.
Peterson said Blu-ray technology can be licensed by any company anywhere in the world.
Supporters of Blu-ray have claimed they have a more sophisticated technology with a greater storage capacity. HD DVD companies have pointed to the fact that their offering will be available sooner and at less cost — an argument disputed by the Blu-ray group.
HD DVD supporters also say their offering will be available sooner.
"Blu-ray is very robust, but it's also not here," said Richard Doherty, research director for the Envisioneering Group. "The PC industry has clearly backed the system that is weeks away from commercialization."
After taking a neutral stance for months in the battle between the competing HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats, the companies said Tuesday they have joined the HD DVD Promotion Group that includes Toshiba Corp., Universal Studios and others.
The move means upcoming PCs running Microsoft's upcoming Windows Vista operating system or Intel's Viiv entertainment technology will come with support for HD DVD drives.
"We want to make sure that whatever is put out on the market is going to be as consumer friendly as possible from the price and usability point of view," said Blair Westlake, vice president of Microsoft's Media/Entertainment and Technology Convergence Group.
The decision by Microsoft and Intel pits the two largest makers of equipment for PCs against many of the companies that build and sell computers. Blu-ray is backed by Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news)., Apple Computer Inc., Hewlett-Packard Co. and Dell Inc., along with a variety of other tech companies and studios.
"We don't see this announcement as anything that will shift the momentum that Blu-ray Disc has experienced," said Josh Peterson, HP's director of strategic alliances and a Blu-ray spokesman.
It was not clear how Microsoft and Intel's move would affect the stance of computer makers, but the PC industry has managed to skirt confusion over dueling standards in the past by offering drives that can handle multiple formats.
Efforts so far to merge the standards into a single format have gone nowhere as tech companies and studios have divided into the two camps. Analysts say consumers are likely to stick with standard DVDs until there is a resolution.
Though Intel and Microsoft's action gives the HD DVD group additional muscle, it does not deal a knockout blow to Blu-ray.
"We have no plans to build native Windows support for Blu-ray or other HD formats," said Jordi Ribas, technical strategy director for Microsoft's Windows Digital Media Division. "That doesn't mean third parties could not build that support on their own."
HD DVD will offer consumers the ability to keep on their PCs a copy of a movie that can be streamed to other devices in the home. It also allows studios to store high definition and standard versions of a movie on a disk.
Westlake also said the HD DVD camp has made inroads with manufacturers in China, where most of the world's DVD players are currently built. Without that support, it would be difficult to quickly deploy the technology at a low price.
"(Blu-ray) does not have that relationship and we're concerned about whether that offering of Chinese players will be there. We know HD DVD will be," Westlake said.
Peterson said Blu-ray technology can be licensed by any company anywhere in the world.
Supporters of Blu-ray have claimed they have a more sophisticated technology with a greater storage capacity. HD DVD companies have pointed to the fact that their offering will be available sooner and at less cost — an argument disputed by the Blu-ray group.
HD DVD supporters also say their offering will be available sooner.
"Blu-ray is very robust, but it's also not here," said Richard Doherty, research director for the Envisioneering Group. "The PC industry has clearly backed the system that is weeks away from commercialization."
09-27-05, 02:46 PM
#155
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Big Worms
Man that is 2 big giants joining the HD-DVD side.
Microsoft is a giant and that is going to hurt them here. They can't openly work against BR in the PC market without having another anti-trust suit handed to them.
09-28-05, 03:30 PM
#156
DVD Talk Legend
More details/links from today's Digital Bits:
We've got another follow-up story for you on Microsoft and Intel's announcement yesterday of support for HD DVD, this one from business news service Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=a5cvnblnIwks). Of note in the piece is the finally open admission by Sony president Ryoji Chubachi of something that we've suspected for a while now - specifically, that his company isn't interested in format unification. Here's his statement to reporters yesterday in Tokyo: "We at Sony don't believe that a unified standard is possible. We will continue to push and persuade HD DVD supporters that Blu-ray is better. Ultimately the winner will be decided by the consumer." So... format war, here we come.
Microsoft and Intel's support is no surprise, as Microsoft in particular has been working with the HD DVD camp on their spec for a long time now. They were co-developers of the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML, which only HD DVD chose to implement (Blu-ray Disc instead went with a Java-based scheme called BDJ). Tom's Hardware Guide has a good interview today (http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html) with Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media (and also one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee) about exactly why the company believes HD DVD is the better option. More to the point, Ribas talks about exactly why Blu-ray Disc failed Microsoft and Intel's key tests. It's well worth a read, so do check it out.
One of the interesting reasons is that, just yesterday, "two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray," reportedly citing the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. This gives HD DVD advantage in the cost of manufacturing hardware (some 75% of the DVD players sold in the U.S. are made in China). Even more surprising however, is Blu-ray Disc's supposed disc capacity advantage. The HD DVD camp has demonstrated, in actual production situations, the manufacture of 30 GB discs (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22092005/17...-blu-ray.html). Blu-ray has yet to be able to get their 50 GB discs out of the lab (the best they've reportedly replicated under actual production conditions is 25 GB). The gist of all of these things means that HD DVD technology is actually more proven and tested than Blu-ray Disc, and in many ways closer to market. We'll have more on all this in the next few days.
We've got another follow-up story for you on Microsoft and Intel's announcement yesterday of support for HD DVD, this one from business news service Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=a5cvnblnIwks). Of note in the piece is the finally open admission by Sony president Ryoji Chubachi of something that we've suspected for a while now - specifically, that his company isn't interested in format unification. Here's his statement to reporters yesterday in Tokyo: "We at Sony don't believe that a unified standard is possible. We will continue to push and persuade HD DVD supporters that Blu-ray is better. Ultimately the winner will be decided by the consumer." So... format war, here we come.
Microsoft and Intel's support is no surprise, as Microsoft in particular has been working with the HD DVD camp on their spec for a long time now. They were co-developers of the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML, which only HD DVD chose to implement (Blu-ray Disc instead went with a Java-based scheme called BDJ). Tom's Hardware Guide has a good interview today (http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html) with Jordi Ribas, Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media (and also one of Microsoft's lead representatives on the DVD Forum Steering Committee) about exactly why the company believes HD DVD is the better option. More to the point, Ribas talks about exactly why Blu-ray Disc failed Microsoft and Intel's key tests. It's well worth a read, so do check it out.
One of the interesting reasons is that, just yesterday, "two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray," reportedly citing the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. This gives HD DVD advantage in the cost of manufacturing hardware (some 75% of the DVD players sold in the U.S. are made in China). Even more surprising however, is Blu-ray Disc's supposed disc capacity advantage. The HD DVD camp has demonstrated, in actual production situations, the manufacture of 30 GB discs (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22092005/17...-blu-ray.html). Blu-ray has yet to be able to get their 50 GB discs out of the lab (the best they've reportedly replicated under actual production conditions is 25 GB). The gist of all of these things means that HD DVD technology is actually more proven and tested than Blu-ray Disc, and in many ways closer to market. We'll have more on all this in the next few days.
09-28-05, 09:44 PM
#159
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You know, would it be possible for consumers themselves to organize via consumer protection agencies to take this format war to task via legal means on the basis that it would be overall harmful to consumers. Sort of a consumer injunction blocking them from releasing a product until one format we'd all like to purchase is chosen by a third impartial party whether it be one or the other or a combination of both.
I know, I know... crazy talk, but I can't help wondering. It seems these days you can sue for this kind of crap after the fact, so why not a preemptive strike.
I know, I know... crazy talk, but I can't help wondering. It seems these days you can sue for this kind of crap after the fact, so why not a preemptive strike.
09-28-05, 10:14 PM
#160
DVD Talk Legend
Wow, talk about the unexpected! From videobusiness.com ...
"The Microsoft announcement comes after days of intense negotiations. Although Microsoft, with DVD creator Warren Lieberfarb as their consultant and Sony and its PlayStation 3 representing the primary rival to Microsoft’s Xbox 360, had been expected to become a member of the HD DVD camp for months, the delayed commitment had become a source of frustration for HD DVD members.
Several members of the HD DVD camp said Warner Home Video had become so frustrated and pressured by its corporate parent Time Warner to have the industry commit to a single format, so as not to further delay the introduction of high-definition discs and the monetizing of the studio’s library, that Warner was beginning to send signals that it was thinking of softening its position on backing HD DVD exclusively. Some said the studio appears to be considering releasing in both formats to try to get others to do the same, but others said Warner was threatening to shift away from HD DVD altogether and support Blu-ray if Microsoft did not commit to HD DVD.
Now that Microsoft has committed, sources say Warner will monitor the response to the announcement as well as try to convince Blu-ray to comply with Warner’s criteria on format specs before making any decisions about whether to publish on both formats."
"The Microsoft announcement comes after days of intense negotiations. Although Microsoft, with DVD creator Warren Lieberfarb as their consultant and Sony and its PlayStation 3 representing the primary rival to Microsoft’s Xbox 360, had been expected to become a member of the HD DVD camp for months, the delayed commitment had become a source of frustration for HD DVD members.
Several members of the HD DVD camp said Warner Home Video had become so frustrated and pressured by its corporate parent Time Warner to have the industry commit to a single format, so as not to further delay the introduction of high-definition discs and the monetizing of the studio’s library, that Warner was beginning to send signals that it was thinking of softening its position on backing HD DVD exclusively. Some said the studio appears to be considering releasing in both formats to try to get others to do the same, but others said Warner was threatening to shift away from HD DVD altogether and support Blu-ray if Microsoft did not commit to HD DVD.
Now that Microsoft has committed, sources say Warner will monitor the response to the announcement as well as try to convince Blu-ray to comply with Warner’s criteria on format specs before making any decisions about whether to publish on both formats."
09-29-05, 08:47 AM
#161
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
what consumer?
) who will actually buy an HD-DVD player next year so they can show off to their friends. Providing there's software..........
09-29-05, 12:57 PM
#162
DVD Talk Special Edition
I still think it will come down to hardware manufacturers selling players that will play both formats. I saw an article the other day with a demo unit that did just that.
09-29-05, 01:20 PM
#163
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Originally Posted by cajun_junky
I still think it will come down to hardware manufacturers selling players that will play both formats. I saw an article the other day with a demo unit that did just that.
10-02-05, 05:31 PM
#164
Suspended
PARAMOUNT TO RELEASE ON BLU-RAY
Similar announcement expected from Warner
By Scott Hettrick 10/2/2005
In a stunning announcement Sunday morning, Paramount Home Entertainment has decided to support Sony's Blu-ray Disc format for the next-generation of high-definition DVDs.
Although Paramount will continue to support Sony's rival, the HD DVD platform from Toshiba, the studio is the first to end its singular commitment to one format, which both sides had hoped would give the industry its best chance of avoiding a Betamax/VHS-like format war.
With Warner and Universal expected to follow suit very shortly, Paramount's decision potentially throws the decision once again into the hands of consumers and retailers next year. Both formats are expected to be introduced next spring.
Thomas Lesinski, Paramount Pictures president of worldwide home entertainment, one of the staunchest supporters of HD DVD, said in a statement Sunday that the studio will release movies on Blu-ray in North America, Japan and Europe as soon as Blu-ray hardware launches in those markets.
"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-Ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-Ray in PlayStation 3," Lesinski said in a statement. "After more detailed assessment and new data on cost, manufacturability and copy protection solutions, we have now made the decision to move ahead with the Blu-ray format. We believe the unique portfolio of Viacom content coupled with this format will provide great benefit for consumers and our shareholders alike."
A format war is precisely what studios, hardware manufacturers, retailers and consumers desperately want to avoid. The introduction of two incompatible formats has the potential to cause a much slower adoption of a new format for their movies, games, music and other programming, as consumers hesitate to pick one for fear of selecting the next Betamax that quickly will be obsolete. Studios and hardware manufacturers managed to find a compromise solution on DVD, which led to the introduction of the most successful consumer electronics product ever.
With the DVD market rapidly maturing and slowing to single-digit growth rates, media companies, which derive most of their studio revenue and profits from DVD, are pressuring their home video and consumer electronics units to get the next-gen format into the market as quickly as possible, whichever one it is, in order to rejuvenate sales of their vast libraries of TV, movie and music programming on discs.
"All we're doing is guaranteeing a format war," said a top exec at one studio DVD division about the Paramount announcement.
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment president Ben Feingold said that while the Paramount announcement is very important to the Blu-ray camp, "being on both formats will confuse the consumer."
Several execs in each camp believe the Paramount announcement to publish in both formats--which is the direction Warner has been leaning for the past week or two with a similar announcement expected this week--is simply a temporary face-saving strategy and that ultimately all studios will shift completely over to Blu-ray by launch time.
"Launching with a single format is the only way to get back quickly to double-digit compound growth," Feingold said.
Universal would not comment, but if Warner does announce that it also will publish in both formats, Universal is expected to be pressured to reluctantly follow suit.
Warner's softening position was believed to be what motivated Microsoft and Intel to announce support of HD DVD last week.
But many said at the time that announcement was too little, too late.
A big setback for HD DVD was the delay of the launch of its HD DVD players from this holiday season until sometime next year. Blu-ray has always set mid-2006 as its launch date, most likely with the launch of Sony's PlayStation 3 videogame system, which will incorporate Blu-ray. Microsoft will not commit to including HD DVD in its next-gen Xbox 360 system.
In fact, the PlayStation 3 factor--Sony will not be swayed from introducing Blu-ray as the format is locked as a component in millions of PS3 machines next spring--is believed to be what has turned Paramount and Warner around in their thinking.
And major hardware companies including Sony, Samsung and Panasonic are expected to announce shortly that they will have Blu-ray players in the market by next spring, regardless of when the PS3 systems are launched.
WHV is believed to be under great pressure from parent Time Warner, which has its own pressures relative to the recent stock performance challenges by Carl Icahn, to do whatever it takes to get a high-def disc to market at the earliest possible time in order to rejuvenate the maturing DVD market.
Sources say Paramount was prompted to action by the imminent announcement of Warner.
Although it would be a little more expensive to release movies authored and inventoried in two different formats, it's something the studios have done before with Betamax and VHS and even laserdisc and 8mm, in some cases. And it's something the videogame industry has become used to.
Similar announcement expected from Warner
By Scott Hettrick 10/2/2005
In a stunning announcement Sunday morning, Paramount Home Entertainment has decided to support Sony's Blu-ray Disc format for the next-generation of high-definition DVDs.
Although Paramount will continue to support Sony's rival, the HD DVD platform from Toshiba, the studio is the first to end its singular commitment to one format, which both sides had hoped would give the industry its best chance of avoiding a Betamax/VHS-like format war.
With Warner and Universal expected to follow suit very shortly, Paramount's decision potentially throws the decision once again into the hands of consumers and retailers next year. Both formats are expected to be introduced next spring.
Thomas Lesinski, Paramount Pictures president of worldwide home entertainment, one of the staunchest supporters of HD DVD, said in a statement Sunday that the studio will release movies on Blu-ray in North America, Japan and Europe as soon as Blu-ray hardware launches in those markets.
"We have been intrigued by the broad support of Blu-Ray, especially the key advantage of including Blu-Ray in PlayStation 3," Lesinski said in a statement. "After more detailed assessment and new data on cost, manufacturability and copy protection solutions, we have now made the decision to move ahead with the Blu-ray format. We believe the unique portfolio of Viacom content coupled with this format will provide great benefit for consumers and our shareholders alike."
A format war is precisely what studios, hardware manufacturers, retailers and consumers desperately want to avoid. The introduction of two incompatible formats has the potential to cause a much slower adoption of a new format for their movies, games, music and other programming, as consumers hesitate to pick one for fear of selecting the next Betamax that quickly will be obsolete. Studios and hardware manufacturers managed to find a compromise solution on DVD, which led to the introduction of the most successful consumer electronics product ever.
With the DVD market rapidly maturing and slowing to single-digit growth rates, media companies, which derive most of their studio revenue and profits from DVD, are pressuring their home video and consumer electronics units to get the next-gen format into the market as quickly as possible, whichever one it is, in order to rejuvenate sales of their vast libraries of TV, movie and music programming on discs.
"All we're doing is guaranteeing a format war," said a top exec at one studio DVD division about the Paramount announcement.
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment president Ben Feingold said that while the Paramount announcement is very important to the Blu-ray camp, "being on both formats will confuse the consumer."
Several execs in each camp believe the Paramount announcement to publish in both formats--which is the direction Warner has been leaning for the past week or two with a similar announcement expected this week--is simply a temporary face-saving strategy and that ultimately all studios will shift completely over to Blu-ray by launch time.
"Launching with a single format is the only way to get back quickly to double-digit compound growth," Feingold said.
Universal would not comment, but if Warner does announce that it also will publish in both formats, Universal is expected to be pressured to reluctantly follow suit.
Warner's softening position was believed to be what motivated Microsoft and Intel to announce support of HD DVD last week.
But many said at the time that announcement was too little, too late.
A big setback for HD DVD was the delay of the launch of its HD DVD players from this holiday season until sometime next year. Blu-ray has always set mid-2006 as its launch date, most likely with the launch of Sony's PlayStation 3 videogame system, which will incorporate Blu-ray. Microsoft will not commit to including HD DVD in its next-gen Xbox 360 system.
In fact, the PlayStation 3 factor--Sony will not be swayed from introducing Blu-ray as the format is locked as a component in millions of PS3 machines next spring--is believed to be what has turned Paramount and Warner around in their thinking.
And major hardware companies including Sony, Samsung and Panasonic are expected to announce shortly that they will have Blu-ray players in the market by next spring, regardless of when the PS3 systems are launched.
WHV is believed to be under great pressure from parent Time Warner, which has its own pressures relative to the recent stock performance challenges by Carl Icahn, to do whatever it takes to get a high-def disc to market at the earliest possible time in order to rejuvenate the maturing DVD market.
Sources say Paramount was prompted to action by the imminent announcement of Warner.
Although it would be a little more expensive to release movies authored and inventoried in two different formats, it's something the studios have done before with Betamax and VHS and even laserdisc and 8mm, in some cases. And it's something the videogame industry has become used to.
10-02-05, 08:20 PM
#166
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not a big surprise. blu-ray is and always has been superior and it was obvious from day 1 that it would win this war, and it will. hd dvd is a watered down incremental upgrade from dvd whereas blu-ray is a major step up. and it also has majpr advantages on the computer side of things which is important to me too.
10-02-05, 10:56 PM
#167
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by DthRdrX
As I said many times before, Universal and/or Paramount will, and can, decide this. Hd-dvd looks dead in the water and will probably not make it to the market.
Neither format is on the market yet. Both sides have too much at stake to back down. BOTH will be released to the market.
10-03-05, 12:31 AM
#168
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by sracer
Neither format is on the market yet. Both sides have too much at stake to back down. BOTH will be released to the market.
10-03-05, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer
Which means what with regard to the US market?
Nothing...but you said it hadn't hit the market yet. You were wrong.
If you had said it hadn't hit the US market yet, you'd have been right.
10-03-05, 06:39 PM
#173
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Dan Average
Blu-Ray's been on the Japanese market since 2003.
10-03-05, 07:42 PM
#174
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by Josh Z
The caddy-based Blu-Ray format available in Japan is not compatible with the upcoming newly revised Blu-Ray format. Same name, different product.
10-03-05, 09:58 PM
#175
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
Nothing...but you said it hadn't hit the market yet. You were wrong.
If you had said it hadn't hit the US market yet, you'd have been right.
If you had said it hadn't hit the US market yet, you'd have been right.
----------------
but the original point still stands... neither format has been released in the US and proven itself in the consumer marketplace. It is extremely premature to announce a "winner".