Houston, We Have A Problem...
09-02-18, 04:49 PM
#176
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
I saw your attempt to redefine what is a personal attack. I have no response other than waiting for the mods and admins to make their call.
But I would suggest people stop taking statements not directed at them personally if they don't feel the statement applies to them. When people post about others being racists, homophobes, or misogynists, you will not see me rushing to defend myself.
But I would suggest people stop taking statements not directed at them personally if they don't feel the statement applies to them. When people post about others being racists, homophobes, or misogynists, you will not see me rushing to defend myself.
09-02-18, 04:57 PM
#177
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
However, there does need to be room in the conversation for people to argue that criticizing a woman for her voice, especially for being "shrill," is sexist:
https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/03/...of-the-shrill/
https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/03/...of-the-shrill/
I do not share that opinion because that is a sexist view!
Women can deal with ball busting just like men can. Women can deal with having their appearances addressed just like men can. Women can deal with having their voices ridiculed just like men can.
Women do not need special treatment. They've been telling us that for 50 years - and they're right!
Women are NOT Less Than.
I also don't see any sort of public "diatribe" from a mod on your responding post.
Groucho ignored the one that YOU said crossed the line (he posted shortly thereafter and said not a word about it. Then Story read me the riot act and gave me a lecture about personal attacks WHEN I DIDN'T MAKE A PERSONAL ATTACK, I ATTACKED THE COMMENT! Clearly (that comment is stupid). I didn't address the person making the comment at all, just the lazy nature of calling me a sexist as stupid.
But Story didn't like me going after a stupid comment, so I got read the riot act. And the guy indirectly calling me a sexist got a free pass - by two Mods.
I followed the rules, the other person didn't, and I was the one who got reprimanded.
WTF?????
You cannot tell me that wasn't due to a bias because Story has been posting nothing but liberal points of view, points of view carried over to me by PM telling me how I was wrong and the other guy was OK.
When pressed on it further (and I'll admit I was a bit testy as a friend of mine at work died suddenly and I wasn't in the best of moods because of that - a fact I forwarded to Story as a bit of context) Story failed to explain why the other guy's indirect attack on my character was OK while my refusal to accept his COMMENT (as stupid) wasn't OK.
There really is a problem here.
09-02-18, 04:57 PM
#178
DVD Talk Hero
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: In the straps of boots
Posts: 28,008
Received 1,186 Likes
on
837 Posts
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
"I will not be politically correct" says the person demanding that people not use terms like racist or bigot or sexist to describe posts that sound racist, bigoted, or sexist, with no sense of irony.
There's a problem in this place alright. It's just not what some think it is.
There's a problem in this place alright. It's just not what some think it is.
09-02-18, 05:07 PM
#180
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
"I will not be politically correct" says the person demanding that people not use terms like racist or bigot or sexist to describe posts that sound racist, bigoted, or sexist, with no sense of irony.
There's a problem in this place alright. It's just not what some think it is.
There's a problem in this place alright. It's just not what some think it is.
There is a double standard here.
Just because someone posts a comment that reflects reality doesn't make them a racist. I think part of the problem is that the people on the left here misconstrue comments that talk about things as they are as endorsements of those things. I'm not endorsing the fact that a black James Bond would have different life experiences than a white James Bond. I don't like that fact, but it is a fact.
But people act like I'm jumping for joy when I post those comments ("Woo-Hoo, blacks got it tough! They can't get into an Upper Class, elitist establishment in Britain! FUCKIN-A, YEAH!!!!!").
Just the opposite is true. It think its all kinds of wrong and, frankly, more than a little depressing. The fact that people assume the worst is far more insulting that anything I could ever post.
09-02-18, 05:10 PM
#181
DVD Talk Hero
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: In the straps of boots
Posts: 28,008
Received 1,186 Likes
on
837 Posts
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
I say this with 100% respect and concern. Make sure you take some time to grieve if you haven't. When bad shit goes down, it's always (always) a good idea to step away from Online for a bit to appreciate the real world stuff that matters.
09-02-18, 05:11 PM
#182
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
So I was extra testy.
Which is why I went off when someone got away with indirectly calling me a sexist and then I'm called on the carpet for calling such an accusation, "Stupid."
09-02-18, 06:23 PM
#183
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
So the concerns of women and minorities are not legitimate unless you say there are? Wow. That's definitely my breaking point for this discussion.
09-02-18, 07:41 PM
#184
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
Tell me how not enforcing a rules violation by someone on the left and then penalizing someone right of center for a non-rules violation isn't biased?
So you speak for women and minorities?
If a woman or a person of an ethnic background germane to the discussion has a problem with anything I post I'll be glad to explain my point of view and clear it up.
Short of that you have no standing to be offended on their behalf.
But I have not made any disparaging comments about women or minorities. I have never once said they are less than in any way. Women and minorities are the intellectual equals of white men. That I firmly believe. Got a problem with that?
So the concerns of women and minorities are not legitimate unless you say there are? Wow. That's definitely my breaking point for this discussion.
If a woman or a person of an ethnic background germane to the discussion has a problem with anything I post I'll be glad to explain my point of view and clear it up.
Short of that you have no standing to be offended on their behalf.
But I have not made any disparaging comments about women or minorities. I have never once said they are less than in any way. Women and minorities are the intellectual equals of white men. That I firmly believe. Got a problem with that?
09-02-18, 10:54 PM
#185
Moderator
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
B5Erik, you have my condolences. That just plain sucks, I can't imagine. May you and all who felt the love of your friend feel the comforting presence of the Spirit in their grief today and whenever it pays you a visit.
Hi, friends, away on a wonderful holiday weekend. Hope you all are finding some time to relax.
Just a brief moment to respond a little, as I'm personally being written about here in the third person. Don't know if I'd always do this, but I will this time.
1. I don't see the value in publicly commenting on the specific contents of PMs between members and me, especially regarding moderation, even if it's to clarify or correct. I won't be addressing any referenced PMs here, thanks. Maybe that will change in the future but that's where I stand today.
2. In that Trump thread (Oh, that Trump thread!) I lifted up an example out of many potentials and I neglected to bold everything I meant to bold. It was my mistake, I've corrected it, and I'm sorry about that.
3. In that post, which I wrote to everyone and not just one person, I asked an honest question about how we engage people, and requested that we do do better, all using the word "please." Twice. That, to me, does not in any way get to the level of vociferously taking anyone to task, jumping all over anyone, or reading anyone the riot act - any one person or the community at large. I'm glad to speak with everyone about my modding style, and I'd appreciate it if everyone would please characterize it in an accurate manner.
4. I have no political motivations or bias for how I mod nor for why I accepted the role six weeks ago. As I wrote in my welcome thread, it matters less to me "what" you write and more it's about "how" you write it. Your politics doesn't matter to me, it's whether you can assert your politics with civility or not that I think is important. If you want to see my motivation, check the sentence that's been in my signature for at least 5 or more years: "Choose kindness."
5. I made brats on the grill tonight. They had frickin' blueberries in them. They were awesome.
For more of my thoughts on how we all do better here, I'll point you to my post earlier in this thread.
Hi, friends, away on a wonderful holiday weekend. Hope you all are finding some time to relax.
Just a brief moment to respond a little, as I'm personally being written about here in the third person. Don't know if I'd always do this, but I will this time.
1. I don't see the value in publicly commenting on the specific contents of PMs between members and me, especially regarding moderation, even if it's to clarify or correct. I won't be addressing any referenced PMs here, thanks. Maybe that will change in the future but that's where I stand today.
2. In that Trump thread (Oh, that Trump thread!) I lifted up an example out of many potentials and I neglected to bold everything I meant to bold. It was my mistake, I've corrected it, and I'm sorry about that.
3. In that post, which I wrote to everyone and not just one person, I asked an honest question about how we engage people, and requested that we do do better, all using the word "please." Twice. That, to me, does not in any way get to the level of vociferously taking anyone to task, jumping all over anyone, or reading anyone the riot act - any one person or the community at large. I'm glad to speak with everyone about my modding style, and I'd appreciate it if everyone would please characterize it in an accurate manner.
4. I have no political motivations or bias for how I mod nor for why I accepted the role six weeks ago. As I wrote in my welcome thread, it matters less to me "what" you write and more it's about "how" you write it. Your politics doesn't matter to me, it's whether you can assert your politics with civility or not that I think is important. If you want to see my motivation, check the sentence that's been in my signature for at least 5 or more years: "Choose kindness."
5. I made brats on the grill tonight. They had frickin' blueberries in them. They were awesome.
For more of my thoughts on how we all do better here, I'll point you to my post earlier in this thread.
09-02-18, 11:02 PM
#186
DVD Talk Hero
09-03-18, 06:51 AM
#187
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
But people can judge a person's statements to be sexist, racists, etc. It's up to them to determine what that is, and you can argue back your view, etc.
Just to re-iterate, I think you've made some points about personal attacks needing to be better watchdogged, but your argument sometimes skirts the line between "that was a personal attack," and "I don't want my opinions challenged."
09-03-18, 08:13 AM
#188
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
Story already responded, but I’ll post my thoughts from last night before I got distracted.
My take on the story comment on Friday 8/31, he was trying to diffuse the situation before it got out of hand, before the thread became a “dumpster fire,” as has been noted here. He picked a couple of random examples, he was not stating that the two examples he chose were the only issues. He was being proactive and addressed a potential issue as the mods have been asked to do in this very thread.
I’ve read back a bit and I don’t have any specific examples of liberals not getting dealt with in the thread in question and I don’t have any RTP emails about the thread in question, so it makes it harder for me to do anything corrective here.
My take on the story comment on Friday 8/31, he was trying to diffuse the situation before it got out of hand, before the thread became a “dumpster fire,” as has been noted here. He picked a couple of random examples, he was not stating that the two examples he chose were the only issues. He was being proactive and addressed a potential issue as the mods have been asked to do in this very thread.
I’ve read back a bit and I don’t have any specific examples of liberals not getting dealt with in the thread in question and I don’t have any RTP emails about the thread in question, so it makes it harder for me to do anything corrective here.
09-04-18, 02:18 AM
#189
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Seattle and sometimes hell
Posts: 6,270
Likes: 0
Received 15 Likes
on
14 Posts
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
Unless you know someone you have no real basis, not enough of a basis, to accuse them of racism or sexism.
As I noted in my post above, I work for a black woman who is five years younger than me, and I respect and admire her more than anyone else that I work with. Period. I view people as individuals.
But people posting here don't know that. They jump to wild conclusions because they want to, because it makes their disapproval of certain points of view that much easier. It makes it that much easier to attack opinions when you assign them to someone that you simply dismiss as racist or sexist.
It's lazy and not very thoughtful (literally, not much thought is put into a personal attack like that - it's reflexive).
Guess what, in the real world a black man can't be a white woman's brother. Just not gonna happen. And in the movies such a thing is ridiculous (when was the last time you saw a black man adopt a white girl? Fant4stic). And that move, a totally PC move, killed the family dynamic of the comic. In the comic they are one big family. Is it racist to say that changing that dynamic was stupid? Is it racist to say that a black man can't be a white woman's brother? It shouldn't be since the statement just reflects reality.
But there are people here who took offense to that statement (and several people made it and were lambasted as racists for doing so).
Just because someone doesn't like a particular fact of life doesn't mean that the person bringing up that fact of life is a racist or that it's a racist comment.
Saying that a black man SHOULD never be able to adopt a white girl would be a racist statement. But merely saying that it just doesn't happen isn't.
And that's why I say that if some people are offended by statements like that then I'm not going to worry about it. I don't support holding people down or treating them differently just because of the color of their skin or the country of their family's origin. That kind of thing is bullshit.
But saying that a black James Bond would have significantly different life experiences than the Bond that many of us know and love isn't a racist statement. It's a statement of fact, not a value judgment on whether it's right or wrong that such a situation is (unfortunately) still a fact of life in 2018.
Calling that view, "Racist," is lazy and disingenuous.
As I noted in my post above, I work for a black woman who is five years younger than me, and I respect and admire her more than anyone else that I work with. Period. I view people as individuals.
But people posting here don't know that. They jump to wild conclusions because they want to, because it makes their disapproval of certain points of view that much easier. It makes it that much easier to attack opinions when you assign them to someone that you simply dismiss as racist or sexist.
It's lazy and not very thoughtful (literally, not much thought is put into a personal attack like that - it's reflexive).
Guess what, in the real world a black man can't be a white woman's brother. Just not gonna happen. And in the movies such a thing is ridiculous (when was the last time you saw a black man adopt a white girl? Fant4stic). And that move, a totally PC move, killed the family dynamic of the comic. In the comic they are one big family. Is it racist to say that changing that dynamic was stupid? Is it racist to say that a black man can't be a white woman's brother? It shouldn't be since the statement just reflects reality.
But there are people here who took offense to that statement (and several people made it and were lambasted as racists for doing so).
Just because someone doesn't like a particular fact of life doesn't mean that the person bringing up that fact of life is a racist or that it's a racist comment.
Saying that a black man SHOULD never be able to adopt a white girl would be a racist statement. But merely saying that it just doesn't happen isn't.
And that's why I say that if some people are offended by statements like that then I'm not going to worry about it. I don't support holding people down or treating them differently just because of the color of their skin or the country of their family's origin. That kind of thing is bullshit.
But saying that a black James Bond would have significantly different life experiences than the Bond that many of us know and love isn't a racist statement. It's a statement of fact, not a value judgment on whether it's right or wrong that such a situation is (unfortunately) still a fact of life in 2018.
Calling that view, "Racist," is lazy and disingenuous.
Your statement is wrong and incredibly stupid. Madonna has black son and white daughter along thousands of other people. My best friend, a black man, got married to a white woman and adopted her white kid. They had two other kids so now they have white and black siblings in the real world which apparently you don't live in. My high school teacher has two mixed raced daughters but they don't look mixed. One looks white and other black. This happen in the real world.
James Bond is a fictional character. He doesn't live in the real world where real things happen. His history is fictional and has changed multiple times because he isn't real. A fictional character can have any history and that is a fact. So yes your statement was racist and almost as stupid as your statement that black men can't have white sisters. That was just on another level of crazy. I'm shocked no one else even commented on how dumb it was. There are like a hundred other examples in the REAL WORLD that can be given out. John McCain has a black kid along with the white ones. That one racist senator that knocked up his maid has black kid along with the white ones. Jolie has a rainbow of kids. Jesus Christ there is only one other posters that puts out this level of weird posts that have no bases in reality. The only differences is you actually believe the garbage you post.
I just need to point out that Santa Claus isn't real and can be black also. Black Santa doesn't remove white Santa from existence. The same is true of James Bond because neither are real.
09-04-18, 09:11 AM
#190
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
A black man can't be a white woman's brother? There are hundreds if not thousands of people in this situation and you think it can't happen in the real world? You never heard of adoption? You never heard of a person with kids get married and the other person adopting the kids? You never heard of people having babies by different races? You never heard of mixed race families that have children with different skin tones?
However, there is no way that Michael B. Jordan could be Kate Mara's brother - (if they wanted to go that route they'd need actors of at least somewhat mixed ethnic backgrounds to make it work) - except by adoption, which completely changes the family dynamic that was originally presented in the comic book. Secondarily, as I noted before, it may be wrong, it may be unfair, but a single black man is extremely unlikely to be approved to adopt a white girl, so adoption becomes a bit of a fantasy.
But they went the adoption route, and that really changed the family dynamic of the group in Fant4stic (when compared to the source material). And that is what people bitched about.
Notice I'm not endorsing these facts of life as a good thing. I'm not stating these things with glee. We are just not yet to an enlightened time when such things are considered backwards and primitive thinking.
My point, however, was that the change they made to the family dynamic in Fant4stic hurt the movie. It made a change for the worse from the source material. It didn't work. But why did they do it if it didn't improve on the source material? It certainly looked like a move to be inclusive and politically correct. It wasn't a move based on better storytelling. And that's the issue a lot of people have - that these changes aren't made to tell a better story, but to score points among their peers for being inclusive and politically correct. Anyone who knows the political climate in Hollywood knows that's true. So are those offensive statements, or just honest observations of how things are?
Oh, and yet again one sentence is taken out of context to allow for outrage.
Last edited by B5Erik; 09-04-18 at 09:26 AM.
09-04-18, 09:29 AM
#191
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 28,830
Received 1,883 Likes
on
1,239 Posts
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
That's okay, but a successful, respected scientist adopting a daughter of a different race? That's a bridge too far! (Nevermind the fact that any such concerns had already been explained away by having Sue be adopted as a baby from Eastern Europe.)
09-04-18, 09:52 AM
#193
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
I'd argue that adoption plays better to the family dynamic. The Fantastic Four is the family they made rather than the family at least some of them were born into.
Is it any less realistic than a teenager engineering the means to teleport to another dimension, a man who can stretch his limbs like Silly Putty, a woman who can turn invisible and generate force fields, empowering someone to engulf himself in flames without getting burned and also fly, become a rocky behemoth with superhuman strength?
That's okay, but a successful, respected scientist adopting a daughter of a different race? That's a bridge too far! (Nevermind the fact that any such concerns had already been explained away by having Sue be adopted as a baby from Eastern Europe.)
Or Josh Trank wanting to work again with an actor he'd had already had a terrific experience with.
I feel like I've heard this before.
Is it any less realistic than a teenager engineering the means to teleport to another dimension, a man who can stretch his limbs like Silly Putty, a woman who can turn invisible and generate force fields, empowering someone to engulf himself in flames without getting burned and also fly, become a rocky behemoth with superhuman strength?
That's okay, but a successful, respected scientist adopting a daughter of a different race? That's a bridge too far! (Nevermind the fact that any such concerns had already been explained away by having Sue be adopted as a baby from Eastern Europe.)
Or Josh Trank wanting to work again with an actor he'd had already had a terrific experience with.
I feel like I've heard this before.
So Sue was adopted as a baby from Eastern Europe? That's pretty damned far removed from the source material, which is the problem a lot of people had. The source material was so radically changed that it didn't resemble the Fantastic Four except in name and the powers of the team members.
I also had a problem with how young they made the characters (as did a lot of people) and how they portrayed Ben Grimm. But those gripes didn't seem germane to this discussion.
I guess it's considered wrong around here to prefer movies stick to the source material as closely as possible rather than making unnecessary changes.
By the way, the future isn't black and white, it's varying shades of mahogany brown. And that's probably a good thing, since we can't have discussions like these without people getting angry and attacking someone (on personal level) who posts what is perceived to be a politically incorrect statement.
09-04-18, 09:55 AM
#194
DVD Talk Reviewer/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Formerly known as L. Ron zyzzle - On a cloud of Judgement
Posts: 14,482
Received 1,835 Likes
on
1,230 Posts
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
I'd like to add again that these are FANTASY movies, and in particular, ones that depict the world as we WISH IT COULD BE (superpowers, super-cool gadgets and spies). They are wish-fulfillment fantasies, so to hold them to real-world standards isn't tenable.
If we want a world where black people can live without any prejudice, why not start in the movies?
If we want a world where black people can live without any prejudice, why not start in the movies?
09-04-18, 10:34 AM
#196
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
However, the recent posts are an example that we can have discussions like these without personal attacks.
BTW, this bit:
That's a picture of James Damore, who wrote the infamous "Google memo," who defended the offensive statements he made by saying, basically, the same argument you made, that they were "just honest observations of how things are." He wasn't saying you are James Damore, but that you're making the same argument he did.
09-04-18, 10:56 AM
#197
DVD Talk Godfather
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Home of 2013 NFL champion Seahawks
Posts: 52,673
Received 1,021 Likes
on
843 Posts
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
However, there is no way that Michael B. Jordan could be Kate Mara's brother - (if they wanted to go that route they'd need actors of at least somewhat mixed ethnic backgrounds to make it work) - except by adoption, which completely changes the family dynamic that was originally presented in the comic book.
09-04-18, 11:00 AM
#198
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
It also ridiculous to go on about how movies "should stick to the source material" if they are not going to be set in the time the source material is written. So much of the inherent racism in the source material makes far less sense when a movie is set in the present day.
09-04-18, 11:00 AM
#199
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
