ibobi

We can try reopening this thread.

Before posting, please be sure you've read the above posts from Benedict and me, and are willing to keep any comments polite, within the rules of the site, constructive and on-topic, and not repetitive of what's already been said here.

I assure you, what's been said is generating internal discussion. So if you've nothing to add but just want to make noise, please yell at your TV instead

whotony

Sounds fair.

auto

Thanks for reopening this thread IBobi and your last two posts are certainly reasonable.

Hokeyboy

We're not children, benedict. Most of us, anyhow. We're not requesting moviefan2k4 levels of non-cursitudity, either.

No one is asking for "the softest possible" language, it's respectful language that is required here. If he can't handle that, he shouldn't be moderating, period. Not that it's my call to make (it isn't by a long shot), but if someone respectfully asks "Why was a thread closed?" or "Why was I suspended?" and -- if they get a response at all -- end up with threatening, obnoxious, arrogant, generally disrespectful retorts, then this is a failure of authority. That accomplishes nothing but generally pissing people off and driving long-timers away.

Judging by the responses in this thread, this is far from an isolated incident. But I appreciate that the issue is being addressed.

Navinabob

After looking at the Rules thread, it appears that perhaps maybe some of them need to be revamped so that punishment doesn't feel as arbitrary when it is enforced.

dave-o

Agreed. That bit irked me quite a bit actually. I am not sure if it was intended to be condescending, but that's how it came across to me. And based on benedict's previous posts, I think giving him the benefit of the doubt, that it was not meant in an insulting way is appropriate. With that being said, how about mods and admins respond with the most professional language possible? I think that would be fair and much appreciated, since paid or not, they are the face of a business. I know that's how I would like the face of a business I run to interact with it's customers...

gcribbs

I think that when a person is suspended or banned they should be given a link to a form or way to request clarification or appeal the decision.

People make mistakes.

The problem is that if you feel you have no choice but to respond to the person who suspended or banned you and the asking for more information or appealing a decision can be considered harassment it really puts everyone involved in a bad situation.

I would hope if I made a mistake and was suspended/banned that I would be able to ask why or appeal it without the very act of doing that causing a further escalation of the situation.

I hope in the end that improvements can be made in the systems currently in place.

Dave99

Perhaps it's time to bring in a few new mods, inject some new blood into the ranks. Someone like deftones would be a good option. He's been here forever, and understands the core group that keeps this place going.

vaporware

Over moderation can kill a website.

Roto

I've been nothing more than an occasional lurker here lately. I think it's absurd that someone who has been a regular poster since the early days of this forum gets banned over a technicality like that. I've never been suspended myself, but it's always been a black cloud over this place that regulars that have been here for years could just be disappeared, the members have no say, and you can't talk about Fight Club without getting suspended yourself.

Who moderates the moderators? Maybe Dave99 is on to something with getting some people with a different perspective. Give some mods a break and let someone else take it on, even temporarily. Deftones would be a fine choice.

sauce07

Have we finally found a perk for Premium members?

bcd

In all my years here, lurking, including the many before I actually became a "member", i never knew that we had a feedback forum. I miss the good old days...

benedict

Oops! My bad on that turn of phrase. Sorry. I wasn't thinking quite as much as perhaps I needed to as to the implications or tone. Point taken apropos of "respectful". I agree.

Although I won't rehearse earlier discussions regarding this current episode, a few years back I remember being caught up in a similar incident. Several of us wrote (IIRC) respectfully to the already multiply-warned (and previously suspended) member to explain about his current suspension. And yet, as I recall, s/he continued to write back in the most strident of tones insisting that s/he had not been told what was going on. But I had seen the emails that I'd sent and those sent by a couple of my fellow mods...

Faced with such intransigence - but while we all still trying to be fair and give the guy/gal the benefit of the doubt - I believe I was in part responsible for a form of words that may have been brought into play again in this latest case. I can tell you that it was all very frustrating at the time and left one with the feeling that one couldn't do right for doing wrong. But I probably learned a little, too, which may have influenced my subsequent moderation a little for the better. Not really for me to say, though.

I know that there are people contributing within these group of related threads who have experienced suspension themselves and those who have come up against the rules about this or that in a way that maybe has thwarted their personal requirements e.g. a name change or whatever. However, alongside the apparent (yet understandable) opening of old wounds, at least some of the posts have indicated that they felt they had been treated fairly.

I would not like members generally to lose sight of this i.e. that the enforcement of the rules as they currently stand is not always going to be popular but that credit has been given regarding mod behaviours with which people have been satisfied. Although we may have a tricky situation at the moment, it is not all "doom and gloom" and, as IBobi says, we're already looking at where we can improve and make the membership experience a more contented (not sure if that is the right word) one. Ideally, moderation should be all but invisible and, for many, I hope that it usually is.

On a personal note, and probably showing me in the minority, I would actually prefer a return to the days of the profanity filter. I believe that some of the turns of phrase we now see within the forums themselves can make the place seem a little threatening, maybe a bit more like the locker room, and could foster a less respectful (or at least a more ambiguous) atmosphere which in turn can lead to arguments, hurt feelings etc. etc.

Just my two pennies!

El Scorcho

ITT people take the internet (and message boards) too seriously

after 14 years, I'm honestly surprised there isn't a constitution written in some shitty font and read by some moderator in 18th century hair into a webcam

but it's good to see you guys still go through the time-honored tradition of bitching about the rules every 6 months, only to have nothing change. You guys are like solstices!

If I were X I'd have banned all of you by now

Unfortunately he's like 60 and a little slow

Trevor

I propose term limits for mods. One or two years max, then rotate.

davidh777

Considering how much time some people spend trying to maintain community activity on this site (Sheep games, challenges, deals, sports/TV threads, etc.), this talk of people thinking about leaving is just depressing.

Nate Boss

This actually is a neat idea. I know mods get a stranglehold and then things get stagnant. A regular rotation prevents burn out and frustration, rewards some users who actually would WANT to get into it, and would remove the necrotic flesh that often times fills up a moderation team.

CRM114

I was suspended twice for reasons I didn't find that egregious. But whatever. There are others that are not suspended even when calling someone a name or being downright nasty.

Also, word has it that once when the site was having database issues, the moderator forum was exposed and some outrageous statements about forum members were seen in there. It led to at least one poster permanently abandoning the site.

CRM114

I mentioned something years ago about mods who basically left the forum a long time ago and were never replaced. No one seemed to care that much.

Trevor

Wow, how'd I miss that?!

Oh wait, I know. The discussion was quickly deleted and the "offenders" who dared question a mod's behavior silenced.

cruzness

It truly is. I know of some long standing members who are looking at scouting other forums to join.

ibobi

In the interest of what I said in my previous post, and to avoid irrelevant gossip based on half-truths and speculation, I'll be closing this thread again soon.

I'll reiterate a previous point: unless you are a moderator, you do not and will not know the facts of why a member was suspended or banned. This is out of respect to the member him/herself. And the reason we don't allow discussion of disciplinary actions is illustrated in this very thread: it leads to speculation, some of which invariably leans toward the most insidious suppositions from people who know *nothing* about the situation at hand, and lasting negativity toward the site and its team of volunteer moderators. Nobody is saying the moderation here is perfect. Everyone's human. We'll do our best to address errors in method, and to clarify any rules that need it.

As I said before, we've been given a lot to chew on here. Good stuff. The mods and I will continue working on this, and appreciate the feedback. Thank you.

Paul
Community Manager

Hokeyboy

Except that the exact opposite occurs every time.

1) A member is suspended/banned
2) Any discussion is immediately stifled (with threats of further suspensions/bans)
3) SPECULATION ENSUES IN ABUNDANCE
4) Negativity grows at an even faster pace

I'm glad that this discussion has engendered real debate among the administrators/mods of this forum. Again, we wouldn't be this passionate about the subject if we didn't actually enjoy being here and want the forum to continue.

cruzness

Thanks HokeyBoy. I couldn't have said it better myself.

fumanstan

Agreed. I don't understand why it's difficult to provide at least some sort of explanation about suspensions or bans. We don't need full disclosure about every single ruling; most are obvious. But there are some questionable cases, and the problem is we're getting asked to trust the judgement of mods and admins for these infractions; this thread is evidence that we haven't seen a reason to have that trust lately.

Continuing to close this thread just because you don't like what you're reading does nothing to help.