LurkerDan

Unless you are lying to the suspended/banned member, this isn't necessarily the case. Many of us have been here a LONG time and have established friendships and means of communication with each other that are not through this site. So again, unless the suspended member is being lied to, sometimes we DO know why they were suspended.

Along the lines of what hokeyboy said, I think you are completely wrong here. The speculation and insidious suppositions, and resulting "lasting negativity toward the site and its team of volunteer moderators", often occurs precisely because you don't allow any discussion nor provide any information. So we're left to assume/speculate the worst, based on what we have seen. And the policy of not sharing any of this info makes the management of this site look worse, not better, as there's a "we will not brook any questioning of our methods and decisions! Do so and you will be harshly dealt with!" element at work. That is the perception that you are creating, not ameliorating, by this policy.

ibobi

The reason mods don't explain disciplinary actions has nothing to do with ego or some totalitarian regime. It's because such actions are not and cannot be decided upon by the community. They're at the mods' discretion. Discussing these actions is disrespectful to the member in question, and turns into a debate about whether it was too harsh or too lenient, or "I did essentially the same thing and I got a worse suspension," etc etc etc. It would make moderation an impossible job that nobody would want to do. It's harder than most people's comments have led me to believe they think it is.

I suggest that you wait and see what comes of the discussions going on with the mods right now.

The Valeyard

What if said member wants full disclosure on the forum regarding the suspension/banning (for whatever reason)?

Hokeyboy

And to clarify: I don't think anyone is asking for full-fledged interactive discussions of suspensions/bans, or that they are to be "decided upon by the community". What we are asking for is simple disclosure and a degree of transparency. And a modicum of respect. Because when it doesn't come from those policing the site -- and during several interactions, it hasn't -- they'd be hard-pressed to receive any in return... which inevitably results in hastening the decline of activity here.

ibobi

The "limited" transparency you're asking for is not going to work any more than total transparency. The same problems occur with difficulty in moderation.

You're right that this comes down to trusting the mod team, and that comes from maintaining the respect that *everyone* here is entitled to. Solve that, and this discussion ends fast.

To those ends: again, wait and see.

CRM114

I wouldn't be so sure about that. People know the circumstances they were disciplined for and they know the interactions that occurred with the moderator. Deliberations in the Mod council are beside the point but even those are in the wild.

CRM114

And suspensions hurt the reputation of the suspended without any recourse of public explanation or apology (if deemed necessary by the suspended individual). Also, I think in many cases, a PM from a mod (not a post in the thread) about stepping over a line would meet the same ends as a suspension.

CRM114

When you speak of suspensions resulting from the same infraction another member does not get suspended for, that's an issue. The suspended member has no recourse to give their side of the story and has no insight into the ruling process. It comes off as a moderator consensus of who they like and don't like. It's obvious when obvious heinous infractions don't even get a warning.

ibobi

And people might choose to leave out salient details when they have a captive audience that's only hearing their side of a story, right? Don't believe everything you hear, especially from an "aggrieved" party We avoid "he said/she said" by simply keeping such actions off the forums altogether.

Publicly "explaining" a suspension isn't going to hurt a member's rep any less. Via PM, any member may freely communicate their situation to anyone who cares to listen. An apology can be posted when one returns from suspension, should a member wish to do so.

Nobody is suspended without communication from a mod. Believe me, if a simple, "could you please not do that" kept people from misbehaving, there would be no need for mod tools.

Again, you do not know what someone was or was not suspended for, or the circumstances leading up to it, because the mods do not/will not discuss it.

Members have plenty of recourse, by appealing to the mod team whose decision it is. If the mods need to enhance their level of communication directly with the member, that's a change I'd support. But once the mod team has deliberated and reached a decision, further communication only serves to distract the mods from their other duties, and the cry of "but they're not listening to me" often is heard. There's only so much to be done.

As to heinous infractions that get no warning, I suggest you make use of the Report Post button to bring those to the mods' attention; they simply cannot see every post in every forum.

VinVega

I've read a lot of this thread. I've skimmed some of it after the first 4-5 pages or so, but I will throw in my 2 cents from what I've absorbed so far.

1. My opinion is, we need to do a better job as umpires when enforcing an administrative action. This is a very sensitive time for both the moderator and the poster. Mods need to be professional in this situation. Posters should as well, but I can give you plenty of examples of posters going absolutely ballistic when I had to email them to let them know they were suspended for a personal attack or breaking the rules. I decided to change my email address as a result of some of the harassment I received from posters. I now use a generic email address when communicating with posters. I only use it for DVDTalk.

2. We need new blood in the moderator realm. I (and several other mods) are not around as much anymore. Mostly because my job is 10 times busier than when I first joined this forum. I wish I could spend more time here, but sadly I cannot. The mods are discussing this topic as I speak.

3. The reason why we don't publicly discuss why a member was suspended or banned is because too many times in the past when that member's came up in a discussion, they would decide to sign up for a 2nd account and start posting in that thread to get into the mix, leading a suspension to turn into a ban and a ban to turn into having to ban IP addresses permanently. It's bad for the poster and it's bad for the mods to run around try to chase 2nd, 3rd and 4th accounts from the same individual. That being said, I think people deserve to know something, but we'd have to figure out a way to do it so as to not encourage the poster in question to sign up a bunch of accounts. Is there a way to do that and not inundate the mods with PM requests for information? I don't know.

4. One person mentioned that mods shouldn't post in threads so as to not appear biased if they have to take administrative action in said thread. I don't agree with this. Mods were originally posters here. We started posting here because we enjoy this place. If I couldn't post in a lot of threads, I don't see why I would even want to visit this site anymore. The mod pay is tempting, but not really.

The above comments are my personal opinion.

mzupeman2

As a reviewer for this site, and just as someone who has been a member of DVDTalk for quite some time, I’d like to weigh in here. In particular, I think a valid point was raised when waporvare said, “Over moderation can kill a website.” I know to some, this comment could be taken as a jab towards the mods, or that this particular forum member may have been overreacting by making such a statement, but this is a valid concern.

Without giving too much detail away, I am a moderator at another forum, which shall remain nameless. At one time, the place was so busy, we felt we had no choice but to clamp down and make sure everyone knew the rules. This helped keep things civil and all, but the person above me (in power) was going too far… and this is ultimately what finally drove me to pop in this thread and break my silence, because most of what I’m seeing here echoes what happened over there.

Everything that’s being discussed here… was going on there. People were unhappy, and many decided to ‘pack their bags’ and hit the road. At first it was shrugged off as unique occurrences, people who broke the rules and couldn’t hack the punishment… but when longtime forum members who weren’t even in trouble began to leave, that’s when things really started to go downhill. Essentially, the trend was the same as here – There was no differentiation between actions against people who were merely speaking their mind. They were practically treated as criminals, no matter how minor the offense. Well, over the last few years, our forum has suffered a very slow death. Now, we’re a very small group and there’s pretty much no chance at recovering. Things are run differently now, but once the damage has been done, it’s nearly impossible to acquire the community you once had.

I don’t want this to happen to DVDTalk. This website, and this forum means a lot to me. I used to come here and get ALL of my release news from this forum… this place seemed to be on top of EVERYTHING, and the news was always posted here first. Things aren’t quite as lively as they used to be, and I understand that part of that has to do with the very nature of DVD discussion forums nowadays anyway… but there’s definitely more to it than that.

A popular Blu-ray news/discussion/review website has a thriving community, and it only grows larger by the day. Yet, another more technically advanced discussion forum, has practically been abandoned compared to the amount of users/posting that used to reside there. It all has to do with the perceived atmosphere and how people are being treated… and if people have to be afraid of what they’re posting even if they aren’t trying to break any rules or offend, and if they feel as if there’s a barrier to discuss things openly with the very people who work so very hard to keep the peace on the forum… where is that going to leave DVDTalk? This forum is already a shadow of what it once was, and I think everyone involved needs to think of some drastic policy ‘changes’.

Actually, these changes need not be so ‘drastic’. All that’s really required, is a little humanity in the interaction. Instead of ignoring, instead of being rude, instead of responding to everything that sounds so professional it comes off as ‘canned’, just communicate with people and let them know what’s going on. If people are e-mailing because they want clarification, let’s use some better judgment and not label every little thing as ‘harassment’. Sit back and ask yourselves if it’s really necessary to use the suspend/ban hammer so often, and when you DO find it to actually be justified, don’t go crazy with it. Suspensions for a month? It’s an internet forum, you know? Not the local YMCA. Ban someone for a short period of time, and if they learn a lesson, great, if not and they’re insistent on causing trouble, then it’s time to take further action. Be real, be honest, be up front, and let’s have it happen across the board. What I’ve been noticing has been exactly the opposite, and I can understand why so many people feel that this forum is now more oppressive than not.

At the very least, we’re headed in the right direction. There’s finally SOME kind of dialogue transpiring here, but this is only the first step. People WILL need a little more assurance than ‘we have discussed it, and will continue to discuss it’, and the inevitable ‘the issue is resolved, no worries, carry on.’ Again… transparency. I know that you won't discuss things with people because everything is up to the mods' discretion, but let's be honest here - Is it really worth maintaining the current model of action when it's clearly costing this site/forum long term members?

sauce07

^ all of that

Numanoid

Very well put, mzupeman2.

cruzness

Wow. What he said

Navinabob

Well said. This just came up in my facebook news feed:

Supermallet

I haven't posted in here yet, but I just want to say that the mod team are composed of people who do care about the site, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. And we are taking your suggestions and criticisms seriously.

Except for kvrdave. We're going to do the opposte of whatever he said. And I didn't even read his posts.

TheBang

When you say that disciplinary actions are at the "mods' discretion" and that there might be debate about the same action leading to different disciplinary actions, it sounds like the decisions are made in an arbitrary basis at the moderator's whims. Are there no guidelines that the moderators follow when crafting disciplinary action? I don't know what this recent kerfuffle is about, but how was it decided that 3 months was the proper and proportionate amount of time for a suspension?

I appreciate that a strict menu of actions can't address all unique situations, but surely there's something that provides guidance in disciplinary matters that's more concrete than how a moderator feels?

Navinabob

I honestly believe you guys are doing just that. Thank you all for listening to our fears and our input. That fact that you don't take any advice from kvrdave is exactly what allows me to sleep soundly at night.

Supermallet

It's at our discretion in that not every offense is the same, so a blanket "break this rule, get this punishment" would result in some people getting far too harsh of a penalty, while others get far too little.

I won't discuss any specific situations, but I promise you guys that we're not running around like Judge Dredd, dispensing street justice with a lawgiver and gunning down anybody who gets in our way.

Psi

To balance between the desire to communicate and the desire to respect the banned/suspended member, I suggest we do the following:

- Create a forum dedicated to this topic.

- Lock the threads, so only moderators can make entries, but no one else can comment or debate.

- For each disciplinary action, show the action, and list the published comments made by the member on DVDTalk that led to consideration of the action.

There may be additional private communications between the member and moderators, but I suspect they only made things worse for the member, so they don't need to be listed. What's important for other people to have visibility to is what triggered the chain of events to begin with. Since those comments were posted by the member willingly, there should be no issue with showing them in the disciplinary summary.

The Valeyard

Well, there goes that fantasy.

Navinabob

Don't worry, they do naked. Fantasy time intact.

BearFan

I would think emailing the member and saying why they were suspended should happen at a minimum for any member who has any decent amount of posts or has been a member for a decent amount of time.

fumanstan

I thought the info that benedict provided in a previous post as an example was good information, without getting too detailed about the situation. He mentioned there were previous infractions in the past and that the user openly took shots at an admin. That sort of clarification helps, and hopefully if the rules are changed so that suspension lengths are more reasonable, there would probably be less overall concern from the rest of the community about the punishments handed out.

And yeah, an email saying that the situation is under review should happen first and foremost. Hopefully if additional moderators are added, that discussion between mods can happen swifter so that the user isn't kept waiting as well.

ibobi

My understanding is that this is indeed the case, for any account that is not very obviously a spammer/bot. If not, this will be the case going forward. Nobody should be disciplined without notification and reasonable opportunity for redress.