I know you weren't around much when a lot of stuff went down. But I will speak on the defense of David since there are a few threads questioning him and his reasoning is equal with mine.

There was a time a couple months ago when there were some great threads going on about the existence of God. David and I were having a very serious discussion. People would jump in with something unrelevant. They would reply without thinking through what they were saying. They would reply without even reading our POSTS of what they were replying to. It was incredibly obvious.

Now if you remember we had posts that were probably 1-2 pages long if you printed them out. People just didn't care. Even the serious threads we were starting turned into mindless drivel. It was seriously disappointing. I know that a few times my heart sank at what people were doing.

On a few of my threads people would come in and troll thereby getting it locked. I know a couple people were banned and the mods did a great job. But you can't really suspend a person because they don't bother to read your post that they are replying to. It is just frustrating beyond belief.

David and I have both cut back on how serious we are in there. It seems that it just is NOT the place to waste our time. I know that I've gotten a few unwanted emails from people who disagree. I'm sure David has seen the same on some of his points.

It just turns into more trouble then it's worth at times. I haven't given up...I'm just taking a break. It's hard though when you really aren't getting any thanks for putting stuff out there that is beyond the norm as far as seriousness.

Soupy, JoshHinkle, and sdsfdsfdsfdsfdsfd, please wash the sand outta yo vaginas. Thank you.

P.S.-I would say something but I really don't want to get involved and really don't feel like typing an essay just right now. Maybe later.

<font color=blue>Originally posted by Bandoman
I'm disappointed in you, David. You, and other serious-minded individuals, abandon the Other Forum and now complain about its frivolous content? Perhaps if you and others who feel the way you do actualy posted intellectually stimulating threads, there would be a lower banal-to-serious thread ratio.<font color=black>

Bandoman, to add to David's comments, even in some of the half-serious threads, trying to post serious answers in an attempt to divert the thread back onto more serious footing hasn't worked. Someone will invariably ignore the serious posts and put up a snappy joke and some smiley faces, and a bunch of posters will once again make a flurry of non-serious posts.

<font color=blue> (originally addressed to David)
I'm not sure I agree with your generalization, and I'm sure many would take offense at your disparagement of the "kinds of people" frequenting the Other. Once again, however, you have chosen to abondon the forum to those "kinds of people". Either join in and make a difference, or don't.<font color=black>

We've tried in our own ways. The serious posters had continued posting helpful advice and info in threads to continue giving useful and usable substance to the forum. I've gritted my teeth at the snappy jibes that appear (although substantive and wittily diverting, they don't contribute any helpful answer). I've tried experimenting and observing what happens with serious posts inserted into threads that had been sidetracked. I've tried resurrecting older serious threads that had died due to being sidetracked by banal (but snappily "fun" jibes). In some cases, this had worked, in some it didn't because the snappily substantive (but banal) posts returned.

<font color=blue> (originally addressed to David)
I'm dissapointed that you don't find it worthwhile to stick it out and try to bring the forum back to what it once was. The cycle will not come around if no one is there to make it do so. I certainly don't think that you could, or should, single-handedly stem the tide of frivolous threads.<font color=black>

David had continued posting seriously for quite a while as have other serious posters and the problem hasn't stopped. Why shouldn't he and others feel fed up with all this? Posting to the forums is a privilege. It is neither a right nor a requirement. Some of us fight the banality but sooner or later, each of us reaches a point where we have to stop for a breather.

What are the mods considering on doing? I don't know. Perhaps they are engaged in email discussions with David on specifics. I've sent in some comments and lamentations in the past, but it's not my passion to try to get buddy-buddy with any moderator in order to get more of my viewpoints expressed to them that way. Maybe if I had, they would have more clearly heard my own pain at how postings have gone. *sigh*<small>

Breaking radio silence for a brief riposte:

Soup, Josh, Al, and Startide have fully elaborated my thinking on this issue, and I thank them for their defense in my absence. In fact, they've expounded so skillfully that I haven't much to add.

Of course, they're not just standing up for me; they've all formulated their own conclusions about this mess and independently reached the same opinions. The fact that _several_ people are writing the same thing as me is at least comforting, and at most strong evidence that something needs to be done.

We would, of course, try fixing it ourselves, as Bandoman and renaldow suggest. However, we've tried that and found it largely a waste of effort.

An ideal summary of what's wrong with Other is what happened in my "Here it is - the case against God, in a nutshell" thread, several months ago. I spent about an hour putting together one concise summary of just why religion is unnecessary. I posted it and invited comments and criticism about my reasoning.

The result? The first 20 or so responders had CLEARLY NOT EVEN READ my post. Half barged in with comments, like "yes I believe in God", as if I'd posted a poll thread. Worse, the other half posted vapid witticisms and snide remarks. I felt like a fool for wasting an hour of my time on this. I felt like I'd put together a thoughtful piece for the forum, only to have it spraypainted with stupid graffiti. Although the thread eventually turned around into some quite intelligent conversation - thanks to Alyoshka, josh, and the rest - the damage had been done, and of course, that's when my posting volume dropped to 1/100th of its prior level.

<b><i>Bottom line:</i></b> <b>Bandoman, renaldow</b> - As the others have stated, we *have* tried doing something about it. It's futile. It's like trying to bucket-bail the flooding Titanic.

<b>Bandoman:</b> As for the sense of humor comment - hey, I'd like to think I still have it. But what thrilled me about Other was its variety: lots of deeply intellectual threads punctuated with lots of cleverly humorous threads. Make no mistake; I enjoy banter, too - but if that's all that Other has to offer me at present, it's simply not enough to keep me around.

One last thought, this one prophylactic: You'll note that I've not threatened to leave in protest or take a permanent vacation out of disgust and frustration. I wouldn't claim that even if I *strongly* suspected I wouldn't be returning, simply because I'm not a dramatist. I will probably linger and lurk indefinitely until/unless the forum gets any better, at which point I may return to frequent-poster status. We'll see. But it would take some serious administrative changes and/or a substantial climate shift to bring me back.

- David Stein

David, Startide, Alyoshka - you make excellent points, and I understand your frustration. I guess it all boils down to what your expectations of the Other Forum are.

I don't expect everyone to reply intelligently or seriously to serious threads. You have to expect some level of banality with so many members. As long as it doesn't get rude (the mods have been great at minimizing this), I simply roll with it. As you stated, David, your "case against God" thread (which was enjoyable reading IMO) was brought back on track by those who wanted to address the issue seriously. I'm not sure what you mean by "the damage was done" - the irrelevant and thoughtless posts did nothing to detract from your position. (If anything, they kept the thread higher on the page.)

I completely understand frustration and/or anger at inane posts after you spent so much time and effort setting forth your argument, but you have three possible responses: (1) point out to the poster his/her failure to address the issue, and try to correct him/her; (2) ignore the irrelevant posts and move on (as was done in that thread); or (3) back off from the other forum, which does a disservice to you and to the forum.

Bottom line: I think people are starting to get sick of the volume of banality on the other, and would respond positively to more serious threads. Sure, you would get idiotic replies, but that's life. You're going to get idiotic replies to your arguments in the courtroom too, David (do patent lawyers go to court often?) - oftentimes from the judges! (There's NOTHING more frustrating than presenting a cogent, compelling argument to a judge who doesn't know the law and doesn't care.)

I've never been one to start serious threads, and I know I haven't contributed a whole to them either. Nonetheless, I will make more of an effort to support/contribute to such threads. I hope that I have the chance to contribute to threads started by SDSDFD, Startide, Alyoshka, Soup and the other Others who haven't been around as much lately.

- Steve

I think all of our points have been illustrated quite nicely. Any further discussion - in this 3 month old thread - would be nothing more than redundant.

Request to be closed ...

I stopped reading it 3 months ago.

The main takeaway I have is, some people like the forum as it is, others don't. Like it, hate it, change it, live with it, leave the forum, whatever. Old is replaced by new, that's life.

In the ideal world this forum would fit everyone perfectly. But alas, we do not live in the ideal world. Sucky, but there is only so much that can be done. We're always interested in member feedback on specific subjects.

Closing at request of thread starter.