Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I think it might help if we all sort of start at the beginning and deconstruct/talk through the whole Challenge process. Well, perhaps none of you need or want to do that, but I think it'll help me as I lay out my verbose thoughts and ideas, please indulge me. Why do we have them, what purposes do they serve? This is our description from post one of this thread back in 2009:I think we all agree that the main goal of community building is still there, right?

I'm pretty confident that no Challenge can ever come close to what we have in Horror. The combination of the unique aspects of Horror and our Saint Chad, makes those results non-reproducible. Horror content and October are just a perfect fit, and the genre fans are most likely unique in their binge-worthiness. October is horror, not just at this DVDTalk forum, but nationwide.

Personal opinion, but even if horror and Halloween didn't exist, and two Chads worked their butts off to run any other Challenge, it wouldn't be too much better than what we already have. Other genres just don't lead themselves to the level of immersion that Halloween gets.

That said, it doesn't mean we have to give up and just half-heartedly go through the motions on the other 11 months, and let them devolve into nothing more than "what are you watching this month" threads. We already have those threads, and Challenges are something different.

I admit that I've had this sort of laissez-faire attitude about many of the Challenges, and haven't put much effort into improving things overall, and particularly in the ones that I've run. I apologize for that.

Busy here at work, more later.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Alright, let me continue my thesis.

So what's best for the number of Challenges? We grew from Horror to include Holiday and Academy Award. These three are probably still the best fit for the concept. They revolve around set dates, a holiday or ceremony, and involve TV content being easily attainable and a sort of worldwide participation already built-in, if you will. The other Challenges probably sprung because of our love of these first three, the fact that by nature we have a lot of film consumers/binge watchers here, and the desire to maintain the conversation we so enjoy in the Challenge threads year round.

Having one Challenge going year round, and having them diverse enough to cover almost every film, seemed like perfect symmetry. I was probably the main proponent for us to keep increasing them until we got to this 'perfect' twelve. But in order to encompass pretty much every film, to have at least one Challenge cover everything in our collections, made it necessary to broaden categories and have several of these newer Challenges be perhaps too diluted.

A smaller specific set of qualifying media is going to increase the chances of multiple people watching the same items and having something to talk about. If everyone watches their own things, it's harder for the community building take place. We might as well just be posting in our blogs or Facebook, or using DVDTalk's "what are you watching?" threads.

Even the horror Challenge had this problem but defeated it by creating the checklist and the daily themes and the daily subset films. These steps substantially increased interaction and, imho, greatly increase individuals enjoyment of the Challenge.

Do we need subsets and themes for every Challenge? Probably, but I think we need to do even more.

Break. Lots in my brain, trying to break this up into chunks.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

So is it even good to have these expansive multiple genre covering Challenges? By their very nature, and the fact that our forum is small, we're going to have 40 people watching 40 different things most of the time.

(And why do we even have a TV Challenge? I know it's popular, but I think that's just because pretty much everyone watches TV, so it's easy to participate. Seems like the majority of us there just watch what we would have watched anyway, and there is little in the way of community building. Plus we already have an entire subforum dedicated to TV, and monthly "what are you watching?" threads. Seems to me like that whole Challenge is superfluous. But I digress.)

Perhaps we need to go away from these expansive genres and create smaller focused Challenges that can't help but have more shared viewings?

This would bring into play Mister Peepers suggestion that Challenges be less official but just have people decide on a concept and start their own whenever. We could have multiple or even zero Challenges going on at a specific time. Anyone could start a Challenge whenever, if people don't join in it'll just fade away.

This brings to mind the often suggested idea that we try to obtain a separate subforum just for Challenges. I know that non-Challenge participants used to welcome that idea, although I'm not sure why a usual 2 active threads in one subforum would bother them. And particularly know with the overall forum being so small, it shouldn't be an issue. I'm opposed to a separate subforum, because I think it would further minimize us into the basement, and decrease the chances of new participants.

Stupid emergency phones at work, brb.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Ok, I'm going to try to be less verbose and wrap this up right here.

A potentially great idea from Travis is to have six set-in-stone Challenges and then six variable ones where we have voting to decide on themes a little less broad than "comedy" or "TV" or "action etc etc".

Or, keep the 12 existing Challenges to satisfy the people who like tradition and want a Challenge to cover everything in their collection, but then also have several (or even 12) variable challenges to cover the missing genres, and over more focused challenges. This would also help the people who don't watch horror, for example, have another option in October.

Or, and I think this is my preference, but to sort of combine the two extremes. One extreme would be keeping everything basically the same, and another extreme would be encouraging even more Challenges and "letting" people start new ones and/or having different Challenges running concurrently.

So here's my proposal: we could keep the basic structure, but then encourage innovation and a less broad theme within each monthly Challenge.

Take Comedy November for example. Instead of keeping it broad, we would use the month before planning stages of the discussion thread to work out a narrow theme. Maybe something like the icheckmovies top 50 comedies list. But, in the Challenge's "rules", it would continue to allow any type of comedy for the traditionalists and anyone who doesn't want to participate in the chosen narrower focus.

Other months would have similar "compromises", but having to be a bit different with the months that are already narrow focused like Academy Award and Holiday. February might be good to add the Romance mini-Challenge. Drama might be good to run concurrently with Criterion.

Anyway, thanks for not banding together and getting the mods to ban me while I've written all this today. I feel like I there was a lot more in my brain, and many of the better ideas are from Travis.

But in summary, I'm still for slow change and keeping tradition, but somehow adding a bunch of innovation.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I kind of like meeting in the middle-instead of 6 changed challenges, maybe start with 3 and see how it goes? If the majority of hosts/participants don't agree, I think having double challenges would work too, especially if they somehow coincide with the current challenge. Drama and Criterion seem to be a good match, as is a short Romance challenge during February. I also think May would be a good one to have two as the MYOC is so flexible.

I like the idea of having a little more direction in a challenge and trying to get more people involved in discussion about the same thing. I know in Animation, there are a ton of different icheckmovies lists out there and we already use several. As a viewer, it's nice to have something to guide you to acclaimed films you may not have watched or even heard of before. As a host, it does increase the likelihood of multiple participants having seen a particular film and increases the chance for more involved discussion.

Honestly, I'm pretty flexible in how the changes happen, I feel like I would be open to almost anything as long as things aren't completely tossed to the side just for the sake of change, if that makes sense.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I think we should do what's fun and not put limits on things or force challenges to fit a format. The host and participants will have the best feel for what a challenge should be like.

If this were a company and not a dying forum, sorry forum, then I could see having rules and regulations.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

:sad:

:sad:

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Why sad at me being willing to change? I'm not saying let's throw everything out the window, but I'd be open to adding something or changing even just a little.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I think David was perhaps pointing out a typo that completely changes your meaning. Maybe?

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I only read as far as him being open to almost anything before I stopped to send him a pm.

Then I read the rest of what he wrote and saw he probably was talking about movie challenges.

:sad:

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Whoops! Totally missed that. Fixed.

Still not sure why you're sad. :/

I like the challenges and if they stay the same, I'm still going to participate and host. But if the agreement is to add some or change things around, I don't see why that's a negative. *shrugs*

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Yes.

I may read through the above soon, but in the meantime... are we looping back to "change for change's sake"? Because IF so... let's not.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I like that... in theory. But in practice, I have limited funds, limited time and limited collection/library/avenues. I can't watch something I don't have (access to), so this becomes awkward.

The Horror Subset is excellent fun. A great idea. But I can't take part unless the choices are available to me*. Too much direction and structure can suck the enjoyment right of things... although "too much" is naturally subjective.


*I do like the drive to make sure most are accessible, but sans Netflix, I'm still often out of luck...

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

That is a good point-accessibility. I know that it was mentioned that this would all be optional and the viewer could do the challenge the "old" way. This would just be in addition to help foster discussion, from my understanding.

So if you couldn't find something, that would be ok to.

(Do you have a local library nearby? I have great luck with mine especially for challenges like the Criterion).

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

It's true that some people participate merely to tackle the unfinished pile in a targeted way and aren't looking for new acquisitions.

:) :up:

I think Golden was just making an off-color joke. :)

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Mildly-flippant reply to this bit (which you even touch on briefly in the next - unquoted - paragraph):

SO WHAT?

Does it matter intrinsically that Other Challenges are not as popular, not as comment-y, not as supported? If only two people participate and have fun, that should be seen as a Good Thing.

If the Challenges were little more than (focused) 'what are you watching' discussions.... again: So What? We watch, we list, we (may) talk. It's cathartic, cameraderie, challenging. It lends focus. It allows for flexibility. It helds guide, allows for discussion, venting and reviewing. Must there be a greater purpose? Even if there is hope for Bigger Things; the absence of hoardes and lengthy conversations doesn't brand things disappointing without us first being disappointed. And there's no reason for that in the face of loose focus, guiding genres, lists and interactions.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Counter: broadness is inclusive. Dilution is diversity.

A smaller set is repetitive. (See upthread anti-Criterion comments.) It disenfranchises people without access, and in an extreme case may suggest that one is not part of the group-proper if they are not watching the same thing..

That (may) move it from "Challenge" to "Chore". A rush to tick boxes, rather than watch what we want. I tend not to have much time to comment. Less to do the checklists (which I miss). And trying to make time for either leaves me no time to watch anything!

Some have time. Some have great(er) collections and a dozen online options. Others do not. To be welcoming and inclusive is to allow the Haves to exist alongside the Have Nots.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

SO WHAT?

And, more helpfully: GOOD! In addition to discussing the same thing, how helpful (if expensive) it can be to see someone recommend/enjoy an unknown entity. To think that someone with such otherwise good and similar taste might make an unseen film seem a more sensible purchase than before. If we all watch the same thing, and agree (or not), that's discussion. But it's limited and terminal. If we watch things "together" and apart - that we can watch together later - that's more community building than anything!

"But"?! Right after lamenting that no challenge will be as popular as Horror, you put a "but" after "I know it's pppular"?! ;)

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

There it is. Seconded.

Best of both worlds - nothing changes... unless you want it to.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Yes, and quite a reasonable, friendly one. But with a VERY limited range. Criterion was what I tried to get from them first, and they have ten.* I have seen all them - most through the library! - and own five or six of the ten. Overall, their range of films is... limited. I think I went through the Horror "people" lists a couple of years ago and found four or five out of the hundreds of possibilities** (and half of those were Milla Jovovich films, two of which weren't even horror!)...

*Plus, I imagine, several laserdisc-only films like Dr. No and Ghostbusters.

**In fairness, many of the names were bafflingly obscure and/or foreign.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I was confused by a couple of the exchanges but I did get a feeling that at least one person wants things to stay relatively the same and there is some suggestions to consider changes that are not too extreme (being extremely general here). I would suggest that February does lend itself to a mini Romance Challenge and there is some room to discuss adding a Drama challenge concurrently with the Criterion Challenge. Having said that, I know that at least one objection to a mini Romance Challenge was made (the shortness of the time leading to some frustration) and there is not a prevailing interest in adding any new challenges right now. I voted against it because I thought it was moving too fast, I think it would be very helpful for people to weigh in on these two suggestions, including especially if I have their positions improperly summarized.

I do think that one idea worth exploring is the idea of some suggestion of certain movies to watch at certain days, or maybe a movie to watch each week to promote some similarity in what we watch. Start very slow, maybe only allow movies that are on YouTube so everyone can participate if they are interested. Just something to think about.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

D'oh. My local library is tiny and has a pretty good selection for the size, but what I utilize is their online catalog which connects most of the libraries on my side of the state. I place an order, usually within a few days, I get an email and it's in. The popular stuff has a wait list, but you do get on it that way as well. They also are able to try to hunt something down outside of the network but that is only half successful. I find that between the two means I can order about 90-95% of what I am interested in watching.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Nton, just a quick observation before I have more time later, but a lot of your above seems like you think there should be little difference between the Challenges and the "what are you watching" threads. I definitely agree with inclusivity, I've been hammered here before for pushing it, but think we need to differentiate a bit between the two types of threads.

I now see that it appears you pretty much agree with my conclusion, but you know, what's the Internet for if you can't debate back and forth on little points. ;) More later.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

So I ran the Oscar Challenge last year and while it's certainly not the Horror Challenge, I think there's a pretty active core group of folks who participate every year. Are there things we can do to boost participation? I'm sure. It's a rather broad Challenge so we can do daily categories or something to that effect if folks are willing. Horror is not my thing so I've never even peeked at their threads but I guess now I'll take a gander to see where all the fun has been happening.

Though I participate in other challenges I don't discuss quite as much. As someone pointed out, by the time the Challenge rolls around I've figured out what I am going to watch and I just run with it. whereas with the Oscar Challenge, someone might post thoughts on a film I wasn't interested in or hadn't heard of and I might try to track it down based on the recommendation and engage in a discussion. I figured that's the point of the Challenge.

If the goal is to create and foster community then I think we should find ways to sure up participation in the existing challenges. If there's a consensus that a particular Challenge just isn't working, then we can try something different. if on the other hand we're trying to fill the calendar then we can do that too.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Sorry, but to me the main point of challenges is in the last two words of that quote: "have fun." If I'm enjoying what I'm watching, and the other participants are having fun, then it's a good challenge. You may agree that "the discussion thread must supersede the individual's enjoyment as a viewer", but to me that's just nuts.
By your own description, since people are going to watch those genres anyway, Horror and Holiday are nothing more than "what are you watching this month" threads.

I never felt that was done in order to "encompass pretty much every film," but to make the challenges more open to different people with different tastes in film.
Everyone watching the same "approved" films doesn't sound too fun to me. Add to that a "requirement" to post your thoughts on the movies, and it turns into a homework assignment instead of a fun diversion.
The Comedy Challenge has theme nights and a checklist, but only a few people were interested in them.
Why do you say that like it's a bad thing?
So, in order to build the community, we need to divide the community first?
So instead of a broad challenge like "Horror" every October, we should narrow that down to "Japanese Ghost Movies," or "Mummy Movies."
Again, let's divide the community in order to build the community.

People are already free to do this, and already do, by choosing what they watch based on personal interests, availability, etc.

I just want to point out that because the MYOC is so flexible, adding another challenge to May is superfluous. Whatever the second challenge is will most likely already qualify for the MYOC. It would be like someone deciding to start a separate challenge in October just for Korean Horror movies, or something similar.
This. Suddenly enjoying yourself is a bad thing around here. No wonder we can't get more people to join in.
:up::up::up: Once again, you said what I wanted to say better than I could.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I don't participate because I'd be re-watching movies. For most challenges, I'm trying to watch my unwatched stuff and the only exception to that would be if I'm in the mood to complete a checklist but I haven't bothered with that for a few years. I've also just never cared about the Academy Awards or other movie awards in general.

I kind of like themes and thought about doing them in past challenges I've run but I would have done a theme week instead of theme night. When every night in a month is a different theme, it just seems so rushed and if you want to partake, you have to keep up each night. With a week, there's no rush, it feels more casual, and I can have a relaxed fun time.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

That's me. The first couple of years I'd do checklists and strive for 100% completion. Then I found I was watching some the the same films over every year just for a checklist item. I stopped doing them. I also am not generally looking for new acquisitions but almost *always* purchase a couple of new films due to what others are watching. And those come from discussion, not looking over the lists.
I feel the same about the Academy Award *and* the Criterion challenges. Both feel limiting due to the theme and I just don't care enough to bother.
I tried "theme night" in the Horror Challenge a couple of years ago but hit so many walls - film not available for or expensive to purchase, requires a subscription to stream, just doesn't sound "interesting" or isn't within my taste in films - that I've not done it again.

When it comes to the challenges I'd just rather watch what I want with the only direction being the challenge "theme" and then talk about it in the threads. All the other stuff *can* be fun but it's generally not my thing. :shrug:

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

The theme nights and subset movies are my favorite parts of the Horror challenge. It helps keep me focused on the challenge, and encourages me to try new movies.

Theme weeks sound good. Also add a subset movie that everyone can watch/discuss that week. If you wanted to add more flexibility, just run the theme from Mon-Fri and let the weekends be open.

Maybe that would solve the problem with the History challenge. I think someone mentioned they wanted it limited to War/Western. Week 1 - World War II, Week 2 - Spaghetti Westerns, Week 3 - Vietnam War, Week 4 - Classic Westerns. Then everyone that wanted to follow the themes would be doing War/Western movies. And everyone that wanted to ignore the themes could watch Mad Men.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Darn Dimension X, you figured me out. My only goal all these years was to take the fun away. -ohbfrank-

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I'd follow this theme. I'd be like a bunch of mini challenges related to the main one and I wouldn't get burned out on any single topic.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

You give me way too much credit. I would have never guessed it was your goal "all these years." It really seems like you've changed almost overnight. Well, good job there, I suppose.

I'm going to miss the old, easygoing, fun-loving Trevor (even if he was only a false front). Oh well, just another nail in the ol' DVD Talk coffin.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Yep... that's the Criterion holdings of, so they say, the entirety of Central Mississippi.

I think we can also do out-of-area special ordering, but at a cost (unknown) and with a considerable delay. Which may be useful in a general sense, but not as straightforward..

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Ummmmmm.... possibly. :)

I don't really know, because broadly - as mentioned - time barely allows me to skim the surface, meaning that I haven't the time for them, but my impression of how I see the initial differences between the two is in their PURPOSE.

i.e. largely in their focus on a particular grouping/genre of content.

The more major difference, I'd posit, is that a WAYW? thread is (seen as? IS?) more of a personal announcement - an individualized list post; discussion&comment allowed but not necessarily needed or invited. In essence, I assume that it's general purpose aligns most closely with a Challenge LIST thread, and not a Challenge DISCUSSION thread.

Thus, the major difference - as I see it in theory, without much comparative experience - is that the Challenges one-up generalised "watching" threads in two ways: focus, recommendation, etc. on the one hand and INVITING discussion (rather than merely allowing it) on the other.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But it seems one is more personal, for reading/ignoring by third parties and the other is inclusive and deliberately geared to being collaborative.


I think that differentiation is already inherent in the system...

Exactly. Ultimately, my ppsition is simple (allegedly): Change, but change mostly by adding and certainly NOT just because things can be changed.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

If that's a shorthand of me, then I'm less "everything stays the same" than ANTI-"Change Everything!" Which I think is a vital difference, even if it winds up summarising similarly. :)

Agreed.

And collaborative MYOCs.
And genre weeks within Oscars.

Never a bad idea, but does rather add duties/time on the Hosts. So, what do HOSTS only think of greater efforr/focus at the front end? Including checklists, but also beyond checklists?

As a participant, I did/do like the differently-focused days of October and November.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

That draws out an interesting side-point - considering the desires/thoughts of the "core group" (i.e. the half dozen commenting there and here) vs. the possibility of guessing what desires/thoughts might expand said group.

Realistically, one involves ASKING, the other theory and guesswork...

Ditto, citing time rather than watchlist.

Exactly. Discussion leads to recommendation & discovery.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Sorry, it's too late here for me to figure out multi-quotes even with the help I was given. But just a couple of comments, thank you for correcting my summarization. I knew that I was being extremely general so I appreciate the enhancement on my effort. Second, I agree that this would mean more time for hosts that I have no right to suggest. What I should have added is that I think that the participants could suggest movies (including with where they are available) and suggest them to the hosts. The hosts are definitely already putting in a lot of work on these Challenges. The participants that are interested in helping should definitely help with some of the heavy lifting, which also helps meet some of Trevor's goals and I believe also addresses some of your concerns.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

I will also add that, with reference to comments, discussion, participation and recommendation, I get more out of Person X saying "I liked this film" after enjoying other things I've seen/enjoyed, than Person Y going in-depth about why they enjoyed something.

To clarify and elaborate on that - I like BOTH. I enjoy, appreciate and try to digest a well-written (or poorly-written*) critique/write-up. But I feel as much kinship for the briefer comments that part me with my money in greater security.

For instance, very brief comments in Criterion have pushed "Silent Ozu" up my Must Buy in November list. :)



*I think - i.e. know personally, extrapolate freely - that some antipathy towards commentry/discussion stems from feelings of concern that we might not seem as intelligent or knowledgable as others do. I can think up things to write, but in writing them down and reading them back tend to fear that they seem insignificant and pointless - particularly when compared to some others' focused and interesting thoughts. If all I have to say about a Film is "I liked it," even after just saying that those comments are helpful to me when written by others, I sometimes feel that it just doesn't add anything. (Moreso in October, where unknowledgable me is facing down a well-versed crowd of apparent experts..)

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Oh, absolutely. :) So-called "crowd sourcing" seems like a necessity in inspiring participation - having input directly also fosters the ethereal sense of community and belonging.

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Forgot to comment on these two points. Firstly, I certainly agree with the suggestion that requirements/suggestions can easily tip over into becoming a chore rather than fun. Secondly, the theme nights & checklists broadly provide this function anyway. Thirdly, personally, I have a GREAT interest in the (horror/comedy) theme nights and checklist... just not the time to see that interest become reality.

Last year, it took several weeks of on-off planning to try and work out a horror schedule that would get me watching what I had on the 'right' nights. Which, while "homework" was also an ENJOYABLE CHALLENGE. But... time did what time does, and plans fall by the wayside. By November, my days were busier and I just didn't have the time to even try to do the same. :(

However, November... 2014(?), I had a particularly great time matching choices to days and remember that enhancing my enjoyment of the month many times over. :)

Re: "Official" DVDTalk Challenges Compendium
 

Exactly. It's vital to remember that there are different reasons and approaches.

I like re-watching things - but I prefer to watch new things, in the forlorn hope that one day I can catch-up...! ;)


Right. And getting busy/behind throws everything off...

While that's "part of the Challenge" (particularly in October), it can also be punishing and difficult... or completely impossible. For instance, a whole week in October is going to be so packed for me that I doubt I'll watch anything for five+ days. Which means some goals are necessarily unattainable, even if I can stay awake to try (and I often can't).