No way! Have you even read most of the HD forums on the net the last 6 months? It is definitly not indifference and most definitly hostility. Sure there migt be some comments that are indifferent but the majority of comments made about HD by SD buyers are absolutly hostile. If you dont think so just do some reading on the major HD forums and you will clearly see. I have been reading these forums extensivly the last 6 months and there is without a doubt lots of hostility directed at the formats, the studios and even the early adopters. People who are indifferent just dont make the kind of comments that alot of the people are when talking about this subject. Alot of it is definitly hostility.

As I said above I am sure alot of people arent buying HD because of the format war but that is only part of the story. There is large number of people that are not planning on buying into HD period and the HD format war makes no difference to them. They just show an openly aggressive attitude towards HD in general, not the format war. I see alot of these kind of comments.

PS...

On the HD DVD side, the discs generally do have all the extras ported over. If there was a 2 disc special edition on SD DVD, those are ported over (almost always). That was one of the reasons I support HD DVD.

On Blu-ray, not so much. IMO, those aren't worth buying.

But as I buy an HD DVD, I'm able to retire the SD version. If I can't do that then I don't buy the HD version at all (i.e. Army of Darkness being one that is "barebones"). The only exception I've made so far being King Kong which was basically a barebones HD release.

I don't buy any SD DVDs anymore except TV shows.

I don't know, I think it's more resistance than anything else. There's a lot of HD DVD buyers that absolutely cannot comprehend holding out. There's mockery of the SD-DVD buyers for buying obsolete discs. And there's pressure from hidef folks "just buy the HD-DVD player, why would you buy an SD-DVD player??" "That's no good for when you get blu-ray" "Why spend that much on SD-DVD?"...etc.

I think it's more of a counter-reaction. "SD-DVD is fine, leave me alone already!"

I think what most HD buyers take issue with is the mis-information that is spread by some who want to mock it. Saying things like dvd ended VHS's supremacy as soon as it was released, for example, is not fact. There are more than enough examples and proof out there that shows the same things being said about HD/BD were said about DVD and most thought it wouldnt penetrate the market like VHS. Time will tell with the new formats, obviously. But one thing, it was cheaper for me to be an early adopter of HD-DVD than it was when I finally decided to go DVD back in '99.

Like I said earlier, I understand why people dont want to be an early adopter. Most of the time we stay in our own little HD niche around here . Remember, it wasnt an early adopter who started this thread.

Do these new machines offer full aspect ratio control (i.e. proper scaling for non-enhanced widescreen and 4:3 titles)? If so, I might just be tempted.

I have jumped onto the HD bandwagon. I still buy SD dvds, but most of them are TV boxsets.

I have to absolutely 100% disagree with this. I am on the forums for HD almost every day and on many different sites and I never see mockery of people who haven't upgraded to HD yet. Hell, most of the people on the HD forums and again not just this site, still purchase SD discs themselves. Yes you have a couple people here and there that basically act like HD snobs but it is a very small portion of the people that visit the sites. I actually started a thread on this site in the HD section titled "has HD effected your purchasing of SD DVD's" or something like that and it was a pretty long thread and the overwhelming majority of people were in fact still buying alot of SD DVD's with only a select few, me included, that had stopped buying SD DVD's altogether.

As I have stated the reason why I have stopped buying SD DVD's is simply the fact that I have gotten used to HD and SD just doesn't look good anymore. That is not a snobbish remark but a basic fact. The more you watch a higher quality picture the worse the lesser quality picture looks. This will happen to everyone including you if you ever decide to go that route.

The fact is most people who are into HD right now realize that alot of people just cant afford to upgrade right now and then you have people waiting for the war to be over. Most of the posts I read are 100% understanding of people wanting to wait until a winner has been decided and again I just dont see this mockery that your talking about except maybe from a select few people.

As for the pressuring people into buying, again I dont see that either. I see people talking about how great of an experience they are having and wanting people to understand how great these formats really are, after all they have been getting alot of bad press these days and unwarranted bad press IMO. We actually dont get alot of SD people in the HD forum and the few SD people that we do get usually blast the formats or tries to start an argument. They have had to actually adopt rules about starting those kind of threads because of that happening so much on here. So if being helpful and explaining to people that these formats are really awesome is considered trying to force people to upgrade then I guess as a community we are guilty as charged otherwise that accusation is just not true. I never see people trying to force people into jumping in, again I just see people giving advice on their own experiences.

Either way, the entire thing is completely ridiculous. There shouldn't be any of the stuff were discussing taking place and everyone should just be happy with what they have and make their own decisions. They should absolutely not bash people for either adopting or not adopting HD . People should just accept HD for what it is, the legitimate upgrade of SD DVD's. HDTV's are out so why shouldn't there be a HD DVD format to go along with those HDTV's? This is just the natural progression of technology that we see taking place in every single electronics field on earth. It happens with Computers, cell phones, portable music devices, video game consoles, tv's, SD DVD players, receivers, speakers, PDA's, and that list goes on and on. old products are continually upgraded with new products and nobody ever complains about any of these but when DVD gets upgraded all hell breaks loose and people feel threatened that their DVD collections will no longer be what they used to be. The resistance from people really does boggle my mind and I dont think any explanation will help me understand it.

I will say that its an absolutely legit upgrade and not some fancy method to sell more DVD's. The difference in quality, at least IMO, is staggering and I cant imagine just ignoring these formats and [pretend they didn't exist or actually wish they didn't exist. It just takes DVD to a whole new level, something that I would think everyone on this website would be all in favor of. I dont get it.

PS.

(see bold) As in, you don't get the opposing point of view, it makes no sense to you.

See, just think about this probably comes across from the SD-DVD person's POV. Think about how it comes across. It comes across a bit like "you're a moron for not agreeing with me". I'm not saying that's what you're saying in this instance, just that that's the impression people can get.

In the last paragraph you clearly express the "staggering" difference and have an amazed tone that anyone wouldn't want to get it.

It is a clearly elitist tone, that their decision is obviously wrong. If this was a videogame console post it would come across a bit like fanboyism. I think it gets people defensive. There's a reason people act angry. It is all the statements that come across like "but how can you make any other choice? It makes no sense!" At best it comes off as a bit videophile elitist, at worst, condescending. I think it gets people riled up.

You could have the same attitude about SACD. "How can you bear to listen to standard CDs? The sound quality is so much better on SACD!" Are you an SACD snob too?



Personally I don't care about HD DVDs at this point. They are a niche and will stay a niche, either until the format war is over, or maybe forever like DVD-A and SACD. I care about movies, not picture quality. To me a good 90% of the movies out on hi-def range from mediocre to crap. There's 2 discs I have an interest in. 12 Monkeys and King Kong (which I haven't even seen yet).

People used to keep TVs for like 10-20 years. People don't upgrade houses constantly, or necessarily cars (although a lot of people do), or lawnmowers, etc. Not everyone wants to be constantly upgrading everything.

I spend enough money on computer upgrades as it is. Not everything needs to be phased out and upgraded. I think some people (not me, but some) get resentful that this is an upgrade they don't want. And I certainly agree that constant upgrades are not something I'm interested in my HT setup. I don't want to be upgrading my receiver, speakers, DVD player, display, etc all the time like my computer, game consoles, etc.

Personally I am annoyed by the copy protection (HDCP can suck it), I'm annoyed by the hardware and software prices, I'm annoyed by the format war, and I'm annoyed by the (although so far unused) ICT flag, and I'm annoyed by the slim selection of movies, etc. So far the benefits (better picture quality, and that's it) don't outweigh the annoyances.

I'm not in denial, I will eventually go HD. But the important thing is even after upgrading, my current DVDs will always be used and enjoyed. Therefore I will still buy regular DVDs and enjoy them.

Great post.

I don't necessarily see SD-DVD owners attacking or mocking those who have purchased HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray players and discs, but I do see the HD-DVD owners being overly sensitive and throwing tantrums whenever they perceive a slight.

I've seen a few HD-DVD/BRD owners go berserk when someone mentions that they're probably not going to upgrade most of their DVD libraries to hi-def.

I've also seen a few flip their shit if someone says they're going to wait out the "format war."

And a few turn into evangelistic nutjobs if anyone dares to *gasp* be satisfied with standard DVD.

(But not on DVDTalk, of course. )

All it does is create an antagonistic environment that doesn't really do HD any good.

I have no animosity toward HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, but I am skeptical that they're going to succeed.That's not a personal attack. I'm not mocking anyone. I just believe that it's going to be an uphill battle for either format to succeed.

Consumer electronics is tough battlefield and it's not easy to drop new formats onto the market even when there isn't a format war being waged between studios and hardware manufacturers.

Hell, I'll gladly upgrade to HD once the format war is settled (either with a clear victor or combo players) but I won't upgrade every single DVD I own. I mean, Jesus, I haven't watched "Sex, Lies, and Videotape" since I bought the DVD eight years ago so I don't why I should be in any hurry to see it in 1080p. So the next time I get the urge to watch it, I think I'll probably be satisfied with the DVD I already own. And even then, I paid less then ten dollars for it from either BigStar or Reel.com.

You have taken what I was saying way way to far. I was merly saying that technology goes forward period and it does so for every single piece of electronics out there. The bottom line is we have had the current resolution for TV for like 50 years. 480i has been around for a long long time and its probably the one technology that is far far past its time for being upgraded. The technology has been around for quite awhile now for upgrading it but it has just taken alot of time to get the ball rolling to really get these changes made. If you really think that 480i was technically ok enough to remain intact and unchanged for another 50 years then your just not being reasonable.

As I said before I absolutely love that technology strides forward and that will never change. I am sure alot of people dont like that it moves as fast as it does but those people I guarantee are in the minority. Every single person I know that uses a computer certainly wouldn't be ok if they had to go back to using a computer from even 4-5 years ago. I can remember personally waiting for 15-20 minutes while Photoshop did its thing with the filters I was using. I could literally take a break from the computer, eat some food and come back and it would still not be done computing. It was ridiculous and ill take processor upgrades any day of the week and be happy to replace the ones I currently have. As for the rest of the examples I used such as receivers and such, you are not forced to upgrade to those items just as you are not forced to upgrade to the HD formats in DVD. The upgrades are therefor the taking if your interested but if your happy with what you have you my no means are forced to upgrade. I personally know people that are using receivers that are like 10 years old and they sound fantastic. The only example that I used that your really forced to upgrade are maybe cell phones and computers. every other item is optional and that was the point I was making that you seemed to miss. Technology continues to leap forward and if you so desire you can choose to purchase that technology or you can stick with what you have. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy any of these products and that includes HD DVD's

As for my comment about not getting it, your again not getting what my point was. My point wasn't that I dont understand why they dont upgrade. It was why they dont like having the option to upgrade. If HD didn't exist then you have no option and you are stuck with SD DVD's period. HD does exist and you have the choice to upgrade if you so choose to. This is what I dont understand because there are alot of SD DVD buyers out there that wished that HD didn't even exist. I see posts all the time stating just that. Again my entire point I was trying to make was about choices and I cant stress enough that these HD formats are not being forced upon anyone, if they were the companies would be shutting down the SD DVD market. That is not the case and the SD DVD market is as safe as it ever was. If you so wanted you could stick with a 480i or 480p TV and a standard DVD player for the next ten years ill bet and still be able to purchase new releases on that format.

Like I said in my original post, technology moves forward period and there is nothing anyone here can do about that. The one technology that was in desperate need of an upgrade was in fact the 480i standard set over 50 years ago in TV and video broadcasting. The technology was available for something so much better for quite awhile now and it has been put in motion to phase out 480i & 480p over the next however many years it takes. Wether you personally like it or not, this is what technology does and it was 480i's time to be upgraded.

So again I dont understand how people would rather be choicless than have choices and I dont understand how on a movie internet site that there is so much resistance to upgrading a standard that has been around for over 50 years. an upgrade that will significantly improve the home theatre experience. Maybe on a shoe collecting website or a knitting website I could understand the non interest but on a movie fanatic's website? Nope, I am in the dark here and like I said there is no explanation that anyone could come up with that would possible help me to understand how a bunch of home theatre enthusiasts could sit around and rather be stuck with 480i then have the option to upgrade to something much much better. As I said before it absolutely boggles my mind.

As for your annoyances with the formats, some I can understand and some I dont understand. I purchased a HD-DVD player for much much cheaper than I did my first DVD player so I dont know how your complaining about the prices unless your comment was aimed at BD in particular. As for the prices of the movies, they are only like 5 bucks more than the SD releases so that is no big deal either. Price just isn't much different from SD DVD to HD-DVD. There is a difference, just not a big one. as for the slim selection of movies, give me a break. How fast do you expect them to roll these things out especially when you have so many people refusing to enter the formats. There are now over 150 movies to choose from for HD-DVD and its only been like 8 months since it was released. Do you even remember how slow SD DVD's rolled out after launch? The title selection has been increasing at an amazing pace so far period.

As for calling my being excited with the format as being an elitist tone, lol. I just dont even know how to respond to that comment at all, I really dont. I am the farthest thing that exists from an elitist and that comment couldn't be farther from the truth. If me being absolutely thrilled with my purchase and if my enjoying the format this much makes me an elitist then you clearly need to redefine your standards of an elitist. The fact that your calling me an elitist because I am enjoying my purchase says more about you than it does about me. It really shows that you have some real issues with this format being upgraded and have issues with people having such a great time with the formats while you have chosen to remain out of it. I certainly dont have any issues with people who dont decide to upgrade as I have said above my not understanding was aimed at the choice factor period and had nothing to do with people actually upgrading.

Bottom line is HD is here to stay and you are clearly showing alot of the attitude that I was describing all along and its attitudes like these that simply boggle my mind. If you dont want to upgrade then dont. You could block HD out 100% and not even visit the threads and forums that discussed it. you could even pretend that it didn't exist if you so wanted to but to sit there and call people elitist because they have decided to upgrade and are thrilled with their purchases is absolutely ridiculous. Its attitudes like yours that have me so boggled.

PS..

I'll chime in....I have over 400 DVD's and they are not going anywhere. Even on my new 1080p HDTV set upconverted SD DVD's look great and I have no plans to jump on board until they get their act together.

There is no way the studio can continue to release on one format and not the other.

2 things will happen...Either one will win or they both will stay with player coming out that play both.

Until prices come down and something is done though my SD DVD's work just fine.

And I probably won't rebuy anything unless I just had to have it and the quality is much improved.

I'll stick with DVD until there is only one new format and its such a huge leap in quality that I have to have it. When I get my new TV (my current one is actually HD compatible, I just want a much bigger one), I'll buy an upconverting DVD player. I'm perfectly happy with my regular dvds

I agree with most of this. I have several hundred dvds that aren't going anywhere and I have no intention of replacing them. I have a 65" HDTV (component only) that I don't intend to replace anytime soon either. Yeah, I know they aren't using ICT, not yet anyway, but the capability is there for a reason. Also, I'm just not that impressed with HD. Yeah, it is an improvement but it just doesn't blow me away. If one of the existing high def formats survives I will likely adopt it at some point. I doubt that will be anytime soon.

The native HD AR is 16:9 (~1.78:1). So if a movie doesn't fit into 1.78:1 then it will have bars at the top/bottom for anything "wider" like 1.85:1 or 2.35:1, etc..

The term "enhanced" widescreen has no meaning for HD discs. The idea of anamorphic enhancement doesn't exist.... note that no resolution is lost because of this. Anamorphic enhancement allows you to effectively increase resolution on SD DVD by using the "black bar" area for more lines which are "squeezed" back down into the proper AR thus increasing resolution in the viewable area.

Just like when you letterbox (i.e. non-anamorphic) a movie on SD DVD you still are getting 480i resolution in the viewable area, on HD you are still getting 1080p resolution in the viewable area for movies with AR > 1.78:1. Basically: same resolution just a smaller picture area.

If AR is 4:3, then it will be sent to the monitor pillarboxed (i.e. black bars on the sides) preserving the 4:3 AR.

Any desired AR "modification" can be accomplished in the TV at that point (i.e. stretching/zooming, etc.). I believe some players have a "zoom" function as well, but I don't mess with those features.

I think the short answer to the question would be: "yes". The machines do offer proper scaling for 4:3 material (i.e. none).

What scares me a little is seeing some posts saying they don't care about picture quality. If that's the case, why not stay with VHS? If you had a choice, wouldn't you want your movies to look as good as they possibly could? Even if you waited out the war, wouldn't you want the maximum resolution you could get for your beloved films? Choices are a good thing.

Perfectly reasonable postion.

Note that any HD player (Blu-ray or HD DVD) will also be an upconverting DVD player. So if you applied the money spent on an upconverting player to an HD player the incremental cost of entry goes down.

I care, just not enough to jump in now as I'm not a videophile.

And the main reason I got into DVD was OAR, instant scene access and extra features which VHS didn't have. The A/V quality was just icing on the cake.

HD-DVD/Bluray only offers better A/V quality so I'm not as anxious to shell you over a grand for an HDTV (won't buy anything below 50" and want one that does 1080p when I do upgrade) and $500+ for a player. Even more so with the format war not being anywhere near decided yet.

i'm not rushing into the HD formats for several reasons
1)format war-i want to see which format wins
2)hdtv issues-i have an HD set but it only has component inputs and it sounds like both formats only allow for 480p when connected via component. So why bother with Hd when I can't get HD resolutions on my HDTV?
3)Price-the discs and players are overpriced.
I'd say the biggest reason though is #2. Until I get another HDTV that has the inputs those players need for HD, I'm not budging.

This could theoretically happen on a title-by-title basis, but currently (and for the foreseeable future), every title available now on both formats can be viewed in full high-def over component.

The formats allow for much more interactivity, down to live commentary tracks and being able to download new extras as they become available, but no one's taking advantage of that yet.

Like you say, not available yet and neither really interest me as I don't listen to commentaries, and I doubt any worthwhile downloadable content will be free.

Plus, extras are pretty much moot for me as I don't have time to watch them any more (had much more free time back in 1998/1999 when I got on board with DVD so it was more of a selling point then.

keep in mind the pricing of these formats are nearly identical to that of dvd when it was released. I'd call that a positive.

I have absolute faith in the greed of all the studios. ICT will certainly be used. When? Nobody really knows but likely as soon as they feel they have a large enough consumer base to ensure the success of the format.
One thing I don't understand... why won't they allow up-converted SD via component? That would be a selling point for most with component only HD sets. If HD is really so much better they have no reason to be afraid of up-converted SD. So why are they?

'Cause the DVD Forum won't allow it. Why? No idea. I agree that it's dumb.

I don't think it's that, so much. Bear in mind that I'm a huge, gushing, rabid fan of my HD DVD player, but I'm not an evangelist, and I haven't been pushing anyone (well, anyone but my gearhead father) to pick up a deck.

I just get annoyed when I hear the following two arguments:

1) "DVD is good enough for everyone." If DVD does it for you for the foreseeable future, hey! Great. Enjoy it. Doesn't affect me in the slightest, just as my preference for watching as much as I can in high-def doesn't affect you. (And that's the general 'you', not you specifically.) There's a very vocal group of people with the mindset that because they're not interested in high-def video, no one should be...that these formats shouldn't exist, period. I'd have to dig through this thread a second time to see if that's been brought up here, but that has certainly come up again and again in similar discussions in the past. No one's going to stop making DVDs any time soon. Relax.

2) "...but HD DVD/Blu-ray/whatever will never be as popular as DVD!" Who cares? I've already voiced my opinion on this earlier, so I won't hammer that same nail again, but that's a silly stance to take.