. . . and . . .If you don't like the conversation, there are plenty of other threads that you can read.

You've got to be kidding me . . .

Talemyn, I have a question. I am being serious, too...I am not in any way trying to argue with you. Did Lucas ever say sometime way BEFORE the 1997 SE's that he was unhappy with them? Like, back in the early 80's, did he ever say he wished he could redo things in Episode 4? I am seriously curious about that, because I do not know. Part of me thinks he began to think of them as "works in progress" way later when he realized what he could do given the new technology at his disposal. Now, if he said that he was unhappy with the OT way earlier, then I would be more inclined to think he really has always thought of them as "works in progress." Again, I have no problem with Lucas releasing the SE's, Super-SE's or anything else. I'll buy them!! But, I just hope that the Originals are made available in addition to the new versions.

Actually, there are plenty of examples in "traditional art" of teams working together under a single artist: large scale paintings are often overseen by "the artist" but are worked on by multiple people, buildings are designed and overseen by an architect, but completed by workers, orcheststras are lead by the conductor, but the parts are performed by the musicians. In all of these situations, the "leader" is given the primary recognition and considered to "own" the work/preformance.Neither Jackskeleton or I are saying that the people involved are not talented or did not contribute, but, in the frame of the overall effort, their work would be "meaningless" if it were not for the director overseeing and and coordinating their individual input into one overall work. They direct the skills of the others to get movie to it's final state.

You can also recognize the higher impact of the director in the process by thinking of what the result would be if the director were to be changed. A film, with the same cast and crew, directed by Quentin Tarentino would look very different from one directed by Ron Howard. A film directed by Quentin Tarantino that uses one boom operator (or key grip or carpenter or visual effects engineer) versus another, the difference is probably going to go unnoticed, because the director will get either one to do what it is that they(the director) needs to have done.

This happens in other creative areas as well. I do system analysis, design, and programming for a living, and I know that many people could replace me on a project when it comes to programming tasks and no one would ever notice. However, when I have a team under me who is programming to meet my designs, my impact is much more noticed, whereas the actual coding work could be completed equally as well by any number of a programmers that I work with. It is my overseeing, coordination, and design that determines the ultimate success of the project.

Honestly . . . I don't know. However, the understanding that I have is that Lucas (sorry . . . here comes the "v" word ) had "his vision" in the beginning, but accepted that he was not going to be able to fully meet in given the environment, resources, etc. that he had to work with, so he did that best that he could with what he did have. I have no hard evidence to back this up, but I don't think he considered them a work in progress, because he was not thinking ahead to a time when he would have what he needed to "fix" things (otherwise, I would imagine that he might have waited?).

However, once technology caught up and he had more time and money to work with, he realized that he had the opportunity update his original effort to the version that he had initially intended . . . and he took it. I think that is why he is so happy with the state of the SE's, because he was finally able to get things closer to (if not all of the way to) how he originally imagined it.

Cool. I don't really know either. I was just wondering. Anyways, it is definitely great news that it looks like the Trilogy is finally going to make its way to DVD. I think it would be great if Lucas includes both versions...then we can see his vision and the what we originally saw (if we want to). Only time will tell . . .

This is the only part of your post I need to take specific issue with.

Again, the movies were as close to the form he wanted, given the limitations on every filmmaker making every film everywhere. No one can make a movie without being constrained by money, time, and technical restrictions - that's just the nature of the work. The case with Brazil, however, is entirely different.

Anyway, I'm not questioning your conclusions, just your analogy, so it doesn't really matter. There are plenty of good examples you could have chosen, Brazil just doesn't happen to be one of them.

This whole SE vs. Original debate all assumes that those are the only 2 choices. There is still another option... an ESE - Enhanced Special Edition. That is where GL makes further additions and changes.

I wonder how many of the SE defenders would "see the light" if an ESE made changes that THEY didn't agree with.

Good call.

Right on, I agree wholeheartedly. When they release the film, they say "See what I have done? What do you think?" At that point, the audience becomes involved in the vision. They became our films just as much as his, because he invited us in.

If they release the SE's only, I don't really know what I'll do. The SE's are *not* the films I loved as a teenager. It's like when they change the recipe to a favourite candy bar. I just don't go on buying it because it has the same name as the one I used to like. It doesn't have the same flavour of the old one.

Unless there's something ultra compelling, I'll probably give SE's only a pass.

Would I like the original originals...sure. Am I just as excited about getting the SE's on DVD in less than a year....hell yes.
The OT is going to look and sound as good as ever. I'm sure as much, if not more, care and feeding will go into the restoration of these as went into the Indiana Jones movies. And pretty much all reviewers and fans alike have given high marks for the audio/video presentation of the Indy films.

I think I just got a chubby.

I am truly excited about this - I've been waiting for these movies on DVD for awhile.

As far as the whole SE thing goes - I would much rather have the originals, but it would only be nice of Lucas to include them. They are his movies and he is free to do with them as he pleases. That said, the movies were released in their original form, and that's the way millions of people fell in love with the movies. Lucas in no way 'owes' people anything; he doesn't have to give us the originals, it would just be nice.

Until we get the originals (if, that is), I'll be more than happy to buy whatever version Lucas puts out and keep my DVD-R laserdisc copies too.

Talk about delusional. You don't own a thing and neither does anyone else. So you keep telling yourself that if you want to, but you don't for a second believe that. Your involvment ended when you bought your ticket and watched the film. Lucas offered you a product for a set price. That's where the implied contract ended. Lucas didn't force you to buy a thing.

So no, the audience owns nothing. We don't own the copyrights or the trademarks. We didn't sweat and pour our hearts into creating the work, nor did we pay for it. You want more proof that you own nothing, put forth a class action lawsuit claiming you own Star Wars and see who wins, or rather who gets laughed out of court.

As for Lucas' vision, obviously they weren't completed or he wouldn't still be tweaking them. At least he thinks his vision isn't complete.

Nerds? On an internet site dedicated to DVD obsessiveness?

I totally agree, but when a director takes some of his old work and makes some changes, I tend to think this is probably how he wanted it in the first place. From what I've seen/heard, George Lucas is a pretty picky guy, and I don't think he'd be releasing Star Wars in a format/cut he didn't want.

Well, y'all could come to my place. THX CAV LDs of the OT. (yes, Han shoots first) One day I'll have to transfer these to DVD for safety. I miss the DD of the SE, but there's nothing like the original.

I will be getting the SE on DVD, whenever it comes out. I want both, and never got around to the LDs of the SE.

Ditto. Except that some of the alterations are so BAD. That's why for this particular trilogy so many of us still like the OT.

Han stepping on Jabba? Like he'd allow that, he'd shoot Han right there. Greedo shooting first? I always thought Han was a goody-two-shoes. Can't remember any more, been too long.

I don't mind the special editions, aside from:

1)Greedo shooting first

2) Han saying "its alright, i can see a lot better now" as opposed to saying "trust me" when he is going to shoot the sarlacc tentacle off of Lando.

So, I see no reason why these two scenes could not have been filmed back in the 70's if they were Lucas' original vision. These two scenes required no new technology that I can see.

But I LOVE STAR WARS, and while I hope he releases the OT also, I will be buying whatever set comes out.

As one of the "SE defenders", I can say that not only do I expect more changes before the release, but am looking forward to seeing what else he has in store. I think, as I mentioned earlier, that Lucas has a great opportunity to make Ep. 1-6 a more cohesive overall set, but it's going to take some tweaking to do that. I think the entire "sextilogy", as a whole, can eventually be an absolutely amazing, epic presentation, but in order for people to buy into it, the styles have to be merged so that the jump in between Ep. 3 & 4 is less obvious.

Out of curiosity (and I am being completely serious here . . . no sarcasm), what other examples can you think of? Maybe it was because I was tired at the time, but I honestly couldn't think of any analogies, outside of Gilliam and Brazil, to illustrate my point.

I think he always said "its alright, i can see a lot better now"

In the '60s, the Rolling Stones likely had the best recording equipment available to them, however, now, when they tour (40 years later), they're using the best available technology and it makes their original songs from the '60s sound completely different. Do people complain? No.

Lucas is no different. He's said the technology wasn't available to do a lot of the effects he'd wanted for the original trilogy. I don't mind most of the enhancements as they don't change the storyline or character development.

Greedo shooting first is another story though - that completely changes the rebel/badboy image of Han Solo...not to mention what a terrible shot Greedo is.

I borrowed this from a post that I did in another thread a while ago . . . it seemed relevant here as well. Basically, these are excerpts (with all of the "uh"'s and "um"'s removed) from the interviews before the movie on the Ep. 4 SE (WS of course )