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Old 09-27-05 | 01:40 PM
  #101  
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I think this throws the balance back into HDDVD's corner. Interesting....
Old 09-28-05 | 02:54 AM
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Question: When will we start seeing HD/BR drives on computers? I'm going to upgrade next year and I'd rather wait an extra six months if I can get a HD drive included.

I was planning to wait till next yr for the X-Box 360 so if they wanted to add an HD drive to later models that'd be fine with me.
Old 09-28-05 | 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Artman
Question: When will we start seeing HD/BR drives on computers? I'm going to upgrade next year and I'd rather wait an extra six months if I can get a HD drive included.

I was planning to wait till next yr for the X-Box 360 so if they wanted to add an HD drive to later models that'd be fine with me.

Toshiba just announced an HDDVD drive in a laptop. http://addict3d.org/index.php?page=v...=news&ID=10885
Old 09-28-05 | 08:11 AM
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Sony will start putting in Blu-Ray drives into their computers (soon followed by Dell and Apple) early next.

In other news, Toshiba has delayed HD-DVD launch in US to Spring.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...archived=False
Old 09-28-05 | 08:30 AM
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I posted this over in the Xbox 360 thread, but it has more relevance here. It's why MS and Intel are supporting HDDVD over Blu-Ray.

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html

Blu-ray failed the Intel/Microsoft test in six critical areas, Ribas told us, referring to a document listing those areas that a Microsoft spokesperson provided to Tom's Hardware Guide:

First, and perhaps foremost, is the ability for a consumer to make authorized copies of a legally obtained disc, in order to store the content on a hard drive and stream it to devices around the house. Intel particularly wants this capability for its Viiv home entertainment platform, announced last month. "We think it's a great consumer win, and it's a great industry win, to be able to ensure that with good copy protection, you can have so much functionality for the user," Rivas told us. But when recently questioned about its support for these features, Ribas said, although Blu-ray had appeared supportive at one time, its current stance is now uncommitted.

Support for hybrid discs that can be read in both current DVDs and future players, was the second critical element. This would "future-proof" new releases, enabling consumers to buy DVDs that can play in today's players, while also providing high-def content for tomorrow's. "That's something that both promised," said Ribas, "but HD DVD delivered, and Blu-ray has not - and it seems it's nowhere in sight. [Blu-ray has] claimed they have it in the lab, but to go from the lab to mass production is like night and day. There's a lot of effort that needs to happen. So as of now, there's nothing that leads us to believe that that's going to be possible [from Blu-ray] at this point."

Maintaining low production costs is a critical factor, which has been a key HD DVD talking point in light of current revelations about factory upgrade costs for Blu-ray. "For a long time, we actually thought that the Blu-ray Group had the upper hand in costs," Ribas said, mainly because of the involvement in Blu-ray of most of the major Japanese CE manufacturers - Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, and Sharp - as well as Philips. Here is where recent events played a critical role: In a development that was brought to light only this morning, two of the world's leading China-based DVD player production facilities announced their support for HD DVD over Blu-ray. In press statements, these companies cited the relative openness of the DVD Forum compared to the Blu-ray Disc Association. "Now that we see China embracing HD DVD," said Ribas, "we actually see that on the cost side, HD DVD will have an advantage, because the Chinese have been the ones who have lowered the prices, via the competition, for HD DVD players." As much as 75 percent of DVD players sold in America today come from China, he added.

Maintaining low disc replication costs affects the consumer price for media, said Ribas, which would play into any price/performance evaluation. A disc production factory can make minor upgrades to its equipment, he stated, with the result being equipment that can produce both conventional DVD as well as HD DVD. Citing figures circulating this week throughout the industry, Ribas said it would cost as much as $1.7 million per production line to install Blu-ray disc production equipment, and as much as $2.0 million for each new mastering system installed. That's a significant expense, he explained, for a business which only turns over a 10 percent margin.

The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.

The final entry is interactivity standards. Although Microsoft and Disney jointly developed the iHD interactivity layer, based on XML - which is the glue that holds together the "Vista vision" of Microsoft's future Windows platform - and even though Disney is a Blu-ray proponent, the Association chose instead to endorse BDJ, an implementation of Sun-s Java Mobile Edition. Ribas told us that the major studios - either publicly or quietly - are opposed to BDJ, citing its relative complexity and its lack of compelling new features compared to iHD. An optional commentary track for videos, for example, that superimposes the speaker's image on-screen as well as providing audio, is one key iHD feature that BDJ will support only as an option, maybe. "Which means nobody will use it," said Ribas.

"Intel was looking at similar issues," said Ribas, "and [we] realized, 'We are getting very close to getting these things into the market, we have to stop hoping or expecting or believing promises. We have to look at what's real and what's not.' That's where our decision came from."

Last edited by Flay; 09-28-05 at 08:42 AM.
Old 09-28-05 | 09:14 AM
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
The "making authorized copies" thing won't fly with Hollywood.

Both formats have hybrid discs.

Dual layer Blu-Ray discs at 50GB can be purchased in Japan. Not lab only.

The article is PR hype (the fact that it is from Tom's Hardware should have clued you in on that).
Old 09-28-05 | 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
The "making authorized copies" thing won't fly with Hollywood.

Both formats have hybrid discs.

Dual layer Blu-Ray discs at 50GB can be purchased in Japan. Not lab only.

The article is PR hype (the fact that it is from Tom's Hardware should have clued you in on that).
Who said it wasn't PR hype? (the fact that I'm just posting a press release / interview and not my opinion of the article should have clued you in on that).

After wading through the bullshit, it's pretty easy to see MS & Intel are just judging by the development of HDDVD which seems to be a little farther along than Blu-Ray. It doesn't mean Blu-Ray won't do everything HDDVD can do and exceed the possiblities HDDVD. It just means Blu-Ray hasn't shown them the goods yet.

Last edited by Flay; 09-28-05 at 09:48 AM.
Old 09-28-05 | 09:48 AM
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Well, what I'm saying is that Blu-Ray has already shown the goods, and HD-DVD hasn't. You can buy a 50GB Blu-Ray disc in Japan today, but you won't find any 30GB HD-DVD discs out. Microsoft and Intel made their decision based on their want to pair up with AOL Time Warner, but used so non-factual statements to help the HD-DVD cause. Microsoft couldn't just come out and say "We pick HD-DVD because we like Warner." even though that is the only reason.

Edit: And incase you missed the news about Microsoft wanting AOL (owned by Time Warner who fully support HD-DVD) here is the article. Was supporting HD-DVD part of the deal to acquire AOL?

Last edited by joshd2012; 09-28-05 at 10:42 AM.
Old 09-28-05 | 10:19 AM
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Full disclosure for those of you who don't frequent the video game forum: joshd2012 is a Sony fanboy.
Old 09-28-05 | 10:56 AM
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It seems from the few articles available that blue-ray is more ambitious...maybe too ambitious. There is just not much out there to support that it can do what they say they can do. At this point nobody knows what format will win (if either).
Old 09-28-05 | 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sdcrym
Full disclosure for those of you who don't frequent the video game forum: joshd2012 is a Sony fanboy.
Really? I'm shocked!!!!!
Old 09-28-05 | 04:08 PM
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I want something like this in the mainstream for applications like movies: http://www.mobileplanet.com/product....0870&src=IMFRO

Screw disc formats. Too bad the discs are closer to HDD capacity.
Old 09-28-05 | 05:56 PM
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Originally Posted by Spiky
I want something like this in the mainstream for applications like movies: http://www.mobileplanet.com/product....0870&src=IMFRO

Screw disc formats. Too bad the discs are closer to HDD capacity.
There has been a push for music and movies to come on flash media for some time, but the problem still remains - costs. This is the same problem that cursed the videogame industry until optical media was introduced. I doubt they would go back to flash now.
Old 09-28-05 | 07:04 PM
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[mod]Lets play nice[/mod]
Old 09-29-05 | 09:35 AM
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Unlike Sony & Toshiba?
Old 09-29-05 | 10:51 PM
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That announcement by MS and Intel is pretty inconsequential. It may sway some consumers who don't have a particularly good understanding of the CE or PC industries, but frankly, neither of these companies have much weight to throw around insofar as this format war is concerned.

Intel can barely get their customers to adopt things like BTX much less sway them in any regard as to which optical format to support. Together, Apple, HP, Dell, and Sony account for over half of all PC's sold in the US and their support for Blu-ray means there will be millions of Blu-ray drives bundled with their higher end systems.

For MS, their main attraction to HD-DVD is obviously because it's not Blu-ray. Anything they can do to minimize the attractiveness of Blu-ray as a consumer format helps them in their battle against the PS3. And it costs them nothing, because it's just a press release. They're not investing in making HD-DVD an option for XBox 360. In practice, their avowed support amounts to little if any effect on the end user.
Old 09-30-05 | 08:52 AM
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
HP and Dell fire back:

"From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format," HP personal-storage unit general manager Maureen Weber said in a statement. Weber said Blu-ray offers anywhere from two-thirds to 150 percent more storage capacity, as well as higher transfer rates, and fits easily into slim notebooks. "The technical merits and consumer benefits of Blu-ray Disc make it the ideal solution for HP's customers."

Dell founder Michael Dell also lashed out at Microsoft and Intel during Wednesday's launch of a new premium PC line.

"Which version of Windows was the first to support DVD drives? The answer is none," Dell said, "because there is no DVD codec in Windows, because manufacturers have always provided their own codecs."
http://news.com.com/DVD+dispute+burn...3-5885785.html
Old 09-30-05 | 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
Microsoft and Intel made their decision based on their want to pair up with AOL Time Warner, but used so non-factual statements to help the HD-DVD cause. Microsoft couldn't just come out and say "We pick HD-DVD because we like Warner." even though that is the only reason.
I knew something was wrong with this when I first read it, and now I know what. See below for the real reason.

Originally Posted by belboz
For MS, their main attraction to HD-DVD is obviously because it's not Blu-ray. Anything they can do to minimize the attractiveness of Blu-ray as a consumer format helps them in their battle against the PS3. And it costs them nothing, because it's just a press release. They're not investing in making HD-DVD an option for XBox 360. In practice, their avowed support amounts to little if any effect on the end user.
Old 09-30-05 | 10:57 AM
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I think it could very well be a little bit of both.

Here is some more detailed rebuttle by HP and Dell:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/78185/bl...tel-moves.html
Old 09-30-05 | 01:59 PM
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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050929-5366.html

Blu-ray fires back at HD DVD camp, Microsoft responds

Calling the reasons cited by Microsoft and Intel for choosing HD DVD over Blu-ray "inaccurate," members of the Blu-ray Disc Association group issued that they characterized as "corrections" on a number of issues, ranging from capacity to managed copy support. Strap yourselves in folks, because we are two days into what is going to become a media war.

Just yesterday I spoke with Jordi Ribas, director of technical strategy for the Windows Digital Media Division, about Microsoft's deciding factors. Ribas emphasized that Microsoft's decision to back HD DVD was based on how the competing specifications look today, and not on claims about what may or may not be available in the future. One key aspect in the decision was capacity: Microsoft said that HD DVD was launching at 30GB, and that a spring launch was a certainty (Toshiba is reportedly aiming for February). Ribas said that this put HD DVD in front of Blu-ray, inasmuch as Blu-ray has not proven a manufacturing process for 50GB discs outside of carefully controlled lab environments.

Blu-ray hit back today, saying that Blu-ray would be 50GB at launch, although no launch date was mentioned. This would give Blu-ray a 20GB lead over HD DVD's 30GB capcity. However, Richard E. Doherty, program manager in Microsoft's media entertainment technology convergence group, cast a shadow over just when the launch would be.

HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity. The 50GB claim for BD-ROM discs is unproven and will not be available for many years to come, based on discussions with major Japanese and US replicators. Replicators not only do not have test lines running, they cannot even pre-order the equipment to begin evaluating this disc. They cannot judge the cost of these discs, or even whether they can be manufactured at all. Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it’s well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs.

The BDA also noted that they were first to design a hybrid disc that would play in existing DVD players, and that hybrid support was merely a matter of adding red lasers to player hardware. JVC was demoing a hybrid disk earlier this month, although it has not been established that the manufacturing process has been perfected. Doherty here also stressed the matter of timing in delivering a solution. Saying that "HD DVD has shown that hybrid discs will be a reality for consumers at launch," he indicated that there was "no roadmap for the development and availability of a BD hybrid disc," and there was no evidence that MEI or Panasonic can manufacture the disc. "While it may be possible to manufacture such a disc in the distant future, no data indicates these can be available at launch and it’s unlikely they’ll be available for several years," he added.

As to the central issue of managed copy, the BDA noted that managed copy is part of the AACS protection specification, and not part of the optical format per se. However, their carefully worded response did not address the issue of mandatory managed copy support, which still leaves things where we suspected they were yesterday: publishers may or may not offer managed copy through Blu-ray, which is something that Ribas indicated that Microsoft was not comfortable with. Microsoft wants the option available on all discs. Doherty added that while HD DVD has pledged their mandatory support publicly, "the BD has not done so and continues to refuse to do so."

If I can boil it down right now, I'd say the big issues are timing and managed copy. Microsoft clearly feels that the HD DVD solution will be finished and launched far, far in advance of Blu-ray, and they want universal mandatory managed copy, to boot.

I know that a formal response from HD DVD is in the works, so stay tuned. In the meantime, there's plenty to think about, and while it may not all be entirely clear at this point, the discussion is at least happening on a public level.

And if Blu-ray 50GB is truly "many years" away, is it worth waiting for?
It seems like it's not a matter if the 50 gig disc exists or that you can buy them in Japan already. They obviously do exist and you can buy them. It's a matter of large scale replication. Will Sony be able to create these large capacity discs in a factory instead of a lab before HDDVD gets too much support?

Last edited by Flay; 09-30-05 at 02:12 PM.
Old 09-30-05 | 10:55 PM
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Neither format is going to get any support from the mass market early on. The only people with a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player are going to be early adopters and people who have them bundled with their PS3's or PC/Macs. Early adopters are going to be split between the two formats.

The mainstream market will be confused and frustrated by the lack of a single standard. The FUD MS and Intel are spreading certainly won't help in that regard. And most people are still pretty happy with DVD and won't be attracted to the idea of buying a new $500 player when they don't even have a HDTV to plug it into yet. It'll be a year at least before they start looking seriously at HD video players.

So, this war isn't going to be decided in the first year. The immediate advantages one may have over the other at launch time are somewhat moot.

Longer term, though, Blu-ray has a powerful advantage over HD-DVD, IMO; and it doesn't have to do with capacity or technical superiority. It has to do with the fact that between Sony, Apple, Dell, and HP, there's a virtually guaranteed market for 10 million Blu-ray drives in the first year. I'm actually being conservative on that number since I think the PS3 alone will probably hit 10 million units.

As for HD-DVD, I'd be surprised if they sold more than one million players in their first year. For comparison, worldwide sales of DVD-Video players was less than one million in its first year and there you didn't have a format war going on and it was only competing with Laserdisc and VHS. HD-DVD will be competing against Blu-ray and DVD.

The production ramps for Blu-ray and HD-DVD components will be on entirely different scales. Costs should go down much more quickly for Blu-ray drives than for HD-DVD drives.

Admittedly, the vast majority of the 10 million devices sold with Blu-ray drives won't be used primarily for watching HD movies, but almost all of them will be capable of it. Even if only a small fraction of these users bought movies, it'd still represent a significant advantage for Blu-ray movie sales over that of HD-DVD.

Any cost advantages that HD-DVD might have in terms of disc production and replication is likely to be short lived. Disc replicators may like HD-DVD because it represents less investment costs for them, but ultimately, in their industry, they produce what consumers buy, no the other way around. If there's enough demand for Blu-ray discs, they'll be forced to make the necessary investments. The higher cost will get passed on to the customer, but the customer in this case is the content publisher, not the end-user. And if you haven't noticed, in the case of music and movie content, the cost of the end product (i.e. the music CD or DVD-Video movie) bears little relation to the production cost of the media. So I don't think Blu-ray movies are necessarily going to cost any more than HD-DVD movies.
Old 10-03-05 | 12:51 PM
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Paramount Adds Blu-Ray Support:

According to an AFX report, Paramount will now support BD too. In a statement sent to the news agency, Paramount said it hopes to make sales on the back of the PlayStation 3's BD support.
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/200...backs_blu-ray/

Blu-Ray now has the majority of Hollywood backing it.
Old 10-03-05 | 07:57 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
Paramount Adds Blu-Ray Support:


http://www.channelregister.co.uk/200...backs_blu-ray/

Blu-Ray now has the majority of Hollywood backing it.

Ah, misinformation at it's best! http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587079

Paramount is supporting both formats.
Old 10-04-05 | 02:08 AM
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That is what his article says also.
Old 10-04-05 | 07:21 AM
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From: Blu-Ray: We Don't Need No Stinkin' Petition
Originally Posted by Deftones
Ah, misinformation at it's best! http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587079

Paramount is supporting both formats.
Umm... what are you reading in my post?

I say, "Paramount Adds Blu-Ray Support" and that does give Blu-Ray the edge on support in Hollywood. What exactly was the misinformation?

Edit: Matsushita says Blu-Ray drives by March.


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