Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I read strictly by trades now, but I was vaguely aware that was the Flashpoint version. So I haven't technically read Flashpoint yet. Some people think it was DC's attempt at a test-run for a makeover of Captain Marvel into Captain Thunder.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Not necessarily. It could just be that in this universe, that is the outfit Tim always wore as Robin. After all, it does look more like the uniform Robin wears in Young Justice, so maybe DC wanted to bridge the gap there a bit.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Just finished reading and reviewing Batwoman #1. My reaction is mixed. Mind you, this is the first Batwoman comic I've ever read. It appears that this series picks up exactly wherever the character and her story left off going into "Flashpoint."

Things I Liked

1. The art - gorgeous work, especially the first few pages featuring the antagonist: a ghost woman
2. Four major subplots juggled more or less well: aforementioned ghost woman; Kate Kane and Maggie Sawyer flirting and establishing that they'll begin dating; Kate's mentoring of her cousin, Bette; and Kane family drama involving her military dad and her sister - everything made sense, though it does feel like Kate sort of loses her focus on the ghost woman for most of this issue
3. Dialog - no groaners like I found in Batgirl ("Gotham, bless my aim") or Detective Comics ("I am the night")

Things I Didn't Like

1. Layouts - only six pages of story weren't splash pages-that's way too many splash pages (though, admittedly, those splash pages looked great)
2. Dialog between Kate and Bette was clearly expository for the benefit of new readers and it was clumsy
3. Only took me about 12 minutes to read, far beneath my preferred level of substance

I'm gonna give them the benefit of the fact that this was a first issue and I'm sure they felt pressured to bring new readers like me up to speed on the ongoing story that dominated the second half of this issue. That kind of dialog is hard to avoid, and even harder to work into a story organically so I'll give 'em a pass this time. If, however, it should prove typical of their scripts in subsequent issues, I might bail. I'm hopeful that there'll be some denser story content over the next four issues (the opening arc is a five-parter). If I don't get hold of any of the next four issues, so be it but I think I'll at least try to read this opening arc and see if it gets better.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

You mean other than a number of excellent titles, like:

Animal Man
Demon Knights
Stormwatch
Frankenstein - Agent of SHADE
Static Shock
Men Of War
Action
Batman and Robin
Deathstroke

And even some really good ones like:

Batman
Resurrection Man
Green Lantern Corps
Batgirl
Superboy
Detective
Blue Beetle
Birds of Prey
Green Lantern


Don't stress so much about "continuity". Just enjoy stories for what they are.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Here are my total standings for the New 52... in case anyone cares. In order of preference.

(The way I see it, anything http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/4.gif and up is worth buying straight out. http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/3.5.gifs are very good but missing something, which makes them recommendations with reservations. The http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/3.gifs are average/meh/OK -- pick up ONLY if you're fans of the characters, http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/2.5.gifs are deeply flawed and not worth purchasing, but perhaps maybe salvageable, and http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/2.gif and below can just go pound sand.)


http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/5.gif
Animal Man

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/4.5.gif
Demon Knights
Stormwatch
Frankenstein - Agent of SHADE

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/4.gif
Static Shock
Men Of War
Action
Batman and Robin
Deathstroke
Batman

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/3.5.gif
Green Lantern Corps
Resurrection Man
Batgirl
Nightwing
Superboy
Blue Beetle
Birds of Prey
Detective
Captain Atom
Green Lantern
DCU Presents

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/3.gif
Legion of Super-Heroes
Suicide Squad
Supergirl
Justice League
OMAC
Batwing
Mister Terrific
Swamp Thing

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/2.5.gif
Batwoman
Red Lanterns
Hawk and Dove
Legion Lost

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/2.gif
Wonder Woman
Justice League International
Grifter

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/1.5.gif
Catwoman (it was in the 3.5 range up until the ending)

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/1.gif
Green Arrow

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/0.gif
Red Hood & The Outlaws

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I agree, though I confess I wish DC had gone all out and rebooted the whole damn DCU instead of this piecemeal approach. I know Dan DiDio is in love with Geoff Johns and his work on the Green Lantern books, and that the Bat-family sales were satisfactory all along, but it seems to me that a complete back-to-square-one scheme would have been much more accessible and easier for a lot of readers. And, really, what would have been the harm to writers, other than that their stories from the last continuity would have gone unresolved? They had more than enough time to plan all this, and they should have wrapped up the "Crisis on Infinite Earths"-"Flashpoint" continuity more neatly.

Still, this is Monday morning quarterbacking and while I can nitpick the three books I've read so far (I've yet to open Action Comics, but it's next), I've been largely satisfied and that's all I've ever asked of any comic I've bought.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Some people don't care about continuity, but it matters a lot to me. Different strokes for different folks. :shrug:

My favorite time was the late 80s through 90s when comics had tight continuity. Especially the Superman books during the triangle numbering era when all the different Superman books were tightly interwoven together.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Sometime in the middle 80s I started mowing lawns for cash. At the time I think comic books were either 60 or 75 cents, but needless today I could afford more than a few with my new found wealth (ha!). For about a year I bought every single Marvel book. I learned a few things during that time. Since they weren't publishing 100 books, the continuity in the Marvel Universe as a whole was really, really tight. And second, I learned that I didn't care for a whole lot of the Marvel Universe.

I am personally not a slave to continuity. To me it makes it difficult to follow stuff. This may be my own perception, but it seems that DC was so murked up in continuity, that their "events" were difficult for anyone without a PHd in DC history to follow. I know that reading Infinite Crisis I wasa totally lost for most of the story.

I do agree with MinLShaw that DC should have just scrapped the entire damn thing and started from scratch. Sure fans of characters like Tim Drake (and I'm a big fan) would be upset, but I'm sure there are lots of ways to introduce these types of characters to the DC Universe.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I don't mind juggling different continuities. I point to the early to mid-90s as a Batman reader, when we had the mainstream continuity in Batman, Batman: Shadow of the Bat and Detective Comics; there was Legends of the Dark Knight set primarily in the early days of the mainstream continuity (though periodically set outside of it altogether) and then there was The Batman Adventures (in one incarnation or another), the tie-in to Batman: The Animated Series. I read 'em all concurrently and had no problem moving from one era or "universe" to the next.

I did like the Superman triangle numbering scheme, and always wanted to see that catch on. Though, I have to say that there were a lot of times when I felt that the stories suffered because they weren't handled entirely by one creative team. I mean, did Louise Simonson really care about finishing off a two-parter begun by Dan Jurgens? How excited was Roger Stern to start a story that Jerry Ordway got to finish? It was nice that it effectively meant a singular, "never-ending" narrative about Superman was published weekly, but it kept those four books from ever really having their own personalities, I thought, aside from the distinctive work of the creators (particularly Superman: The Man of Steel, with Jon Bogdanove's art).

I'd rather have each book develop its own arcs, but I understand why readers get impatient feeling they're only inching along in three or four concurrent stories about the same character and want that kind of conflated "universe" effect. I wish they'd just make it a single weekly book and rotate creative teams. It'd be a lot less confusing to only have one Batman or Superman series to buy, and I think it'd be easier for me to talk myself into buying that one series weekly than to buy three or four books monthly. (Yes, I know there's no discernible difference; it's a psychological barrier of some kind.)

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I placed an order with DCSB, so I haven't read the majority of the books this month, but I have picked up a few things I had decided not to get and then changed my mind about. I agree with you that Animal Man is a great read. Of the six or seven books I have read, Grifter is by far the worst. I have no interest in reading it again. I think DC should have found a more interesting way to indroduce him to the DC Universe.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Batman was interesting. Not really loving the art, but the story is solid. Batwoman was the opposite, great art, thin story. As Min said, too many splash pages and it felt skimpy on the whole. But the art is so good I'll be back for more.

Really liked Green Lantern Corps. Can't wait to see where they take this story line.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I think you just have to throw away the continuity and not try to piece things together, but just roll with it, if you're going to follow the DCnU. Not ideal, but that's what they're going for.

Johns is one of the ones who brought in all the tight continuity, and his love of legacy characters brought us back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen and the LoSH, and before that most of the JSA and a bunch of JSA-tied characters. Infinite Crisis, IIRC, was his baby, and if you had never read Crisis on Infinite Earths I don't think you would even understand where this other Superman and Luthor and Superboy was coming from (and you also wouldn't understand how it just destroyed everything that COIE did).

Continuity isn't a bad thing in and of itself. It gets people invested in the stories, instead of believing they could miss a few months or years and it doesn't really matter. It's like a cool easter egg for longtime readers. It can get people interested in past stories so that they want to seek them out. I remember as a kid, I was pretty much thrown into the JSA and had no idea who most of the characters were, and it made me want to seek out stories about them to find out about them. Same with the Legion. And back then, there would be little footnotes about which issue so-and-so story happened.

However, when creators who are vested in it get too tied up in it and try to write fanfics for themselves, it can become a bit too much. Way back when, Busiek's Avengers Forever was borderline... but he explained all the tie ins adequately, and I enjoyed it. DC always felt the need to explain everything perfectly... the whole silver age paradox opened up Earth 2 and the multiverse, which required COIE. COIE then messed up the Legion and Hawkman and a bunch of others, and they needed(?) Zero Hour. Then they wanted the multiverse back and they came up with Infinite Crisis, and the Superboy punch became the continuity explain-it-all. Meanwhile, over at Marvel, Bendis can go claim that the original Avengers were formed by Nick Fury and included Kraven the Hunter and Sabretooth, and nobody cares.

I like DC's rich history. I like that the characters were a bit more iconic than Marvel (you want to talk impenetrable, try getting into X-men), and were pretty easy to define. I liked that creators like Robinson in Starman and Johns in JSA wanted to bring back some history and make up some additions along the way. But it got convoluted, and sales forced DC to hit the reset button, and it's obvious that for the most part, they're winging it. So we'll see where they stand in a few months, and if the always-dodge editorial team can somehow pull this all together without resorting to some massive crossover (Aquaman this time?).

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I bought the Green Lantern: Emerald Knights Blu-ray and when watching the bonus content on that, Dan DiDio outright declares that he's the one who ordered Geoff Johns to take his basic story idea for "Blackest Night" and grow it until it encompassed the entire DCU. It's evident that DiDio is of the "bigger is better" school, and that's got a lot to do with these seemingly endless "This changes everything for everyone who has ever lived in the DCU!" stories in recent years. The sheer scale of such events means that one basic idea is going to have an impact on all kinds of characters, and the problem is that it needlessly ties the hands of other writers. I don't mind large-scale stories, so long as they're done right. DiDio, however, seems to be of the mind that no idea is developed properly until it becomes something like that.

Unfortunately, that kind of scale draws in secondary and even tertiary characters, and it leaves subsequent writers with the dilemma of either ignoring what was done, or having to work within the confines of the consequences of those event stories. "I've got this idea: DCU is invaded by zombie rabbits from another dimension! Only, to make sure readers take us seriously, we have to kill seven people in thirteen issues and seriously disfigure one more. Sound good? Great!" But that one idea means that eight characters potentially of interest to another writer are problematic. Hook-for-a-Hand Aquaman was fine for Peter David in the 90s, but who the hell wanted to write that version of Aquaman later? Nobody.

So for me, I wish they'd concentrate on only screwing things up for the characters whose book is being written. At least it was Peter David who radically changed Aquaman, in an Aquaman series, and he didn't inherit the character as a disfigured leftover from someone else's massive crossover. What's the appeal in drawing in all these characters just to show off the roster of the DCU before tying the hands of successive writers?

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

MinLShaw, I get that sense of "let's throw everything plus the kitchen sink into into it!" from not only DC, but Marvel as well. When you do something like reveal Spider-Man's true identity for the sake of the crossover, you damn well better have a better plan for what happens next than "do over!"

This is the same sense I got when I was reading Infinite Crisis, too. After the first two books, I was so confused from the the sheer weight of it, that it stopped being fun. Then to add insult to injury - not only do they drag every single damn character and book into these things - they publish dozens of tie-ins to really muddy up the water.

I guess that in the end these "events" sell a ton of books, because I don't see the point of them past this.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I had to laugh earlier, because I remembered my review of the FCBD Green Lantern/Flashpoint preview issue from DC. In it, I dismissed Flashpoint out of hand as yet another stunt event to be forgotten and/or undone by year's end. So...DC: 1, Travis: 0.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Wow. Just saw this in my Twitter timeline from @ComicVine:

I would seriously love to know what the digital sales have been like. Like I've been saying, if ever there was a time to slap the industry in the face and tell it to grow up a little, this may be the best opportunity fans have ever had. The Internet makes it much easier for fans to find expression that reaches creators, and with all the attention DC and the industry at large are enjoying at present, there are bound to be people who see dollar signs behind appeasing a lot of people who bought--but are upset by--some of these early issues. This could yield some greatness yet, y'all.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Give it another year... :)

Seriously, though, the DCnU was kinda shoehorned into Flashpoint, don't you think? Nothing in that miniseries stood out to me, and certainly you could go into the DCnU without having to have suffered through that. Maybe the other satellite series helped flesh the story out, but unless you want to see Barry electrocuting himself and Batman (the current one) crying, I don't see the point of it. It also directly flies in the face of the rules that Johns set up for the Flash in Flash Rebirth, which was just a year or so ago. Tons of exposition in the last issue to try to tie it all together. Oh, right, first appearance of the mystery woman, that's gonna be worth some big bucks someday, right?

Just re-read Flashpoint 6... so this is a result of the 3 timelines (Wildstorm, The DC corner of Vertigo, the DC Universe) being combined to fight off some menace? I know Didio or somebody promised no crossovers for a while, but they set one up anyway. You'd think a Barry Allen who's main memory was pre-Crisis would have recreated the world in a pre-Crisis image, but eh, I guess it doesn't have to make sense.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

Justice League #1 is on its fourth printing, but yeah it is kind of odd we haven't seen any sales figures on the digital side. I don't know if that is good or bad.

But anyway, sales of #1s are never a good way to judge how well it is doing. Half or more of the sales are most likely to speculators who are hoping to sell them in the future for a profit. I think that is also probably why we aren't see any figures on digital sales, because they probably aren't too impressive. Speculators aren't going to buy a digital product that has no resale value. The true test will come in November and December with sales of the #3s and #4s.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I completely agree with you. But I will say this, I was at the comic book store this past week when I overheard a coversation between the manager and the owner. On average every DC title has been added to at least 50 pull lists. Some top tier titles have been added to at least 100 pull lists so far.

No I didn't ask if these were people who were perhaps already buying the titles and just wanted to make sure they didn't get sold out or what, but by my count at this one store alone that's a minimum of 2,600 DC books for at least the next month or two. That's a lot of damn books.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I do think there are a lot of fans who either found the old universe impenetrable or were just looking for a good event who are going to support this for at least a few months, until quality wins out (or until Marvel does something to swing the pendulum back). I also think that digital sales right now aren't as important as they will be in a few months... how many new sales did they get with the dollar discount on month-old comics, and how many new people are picking up the #1's digitally because they're just starting out?

I also wonder how those B&N racks are doing.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

It's obvious the DCnU should have been a complete reboot, but DC was simply too scared of pushing away readers who had stuck with them for decades. Continuity is going to be messy for years and we know attempts will be made to re-introduce elements of the Post-Crisis universe as soon as a creator thinks it's a good idea.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I stuck to my initial perception and passed on it. When they announced The New 52 I briefly thought about reading it, but then I decided that I'd just come to this with the #1s of the books that interested me.

Well, it's a given that #1 sales will be the strongest; no one expects all 52 titles to sell out each month. Hell, I'll be surprised if all 52 make it a full 12 issues. Attrition is natural.

As for digital sales, it's worth noting that they afford the "buy one to keep, one to read" people a tempting opportunity at a time when new books are hitting the shelves marked up in a lot of places. Better to just buy your keeper at that inflated price, and read the digital version whose price is static. I've also heard from a few people--including one or two in this thread--who favor the digital editions outright and aren't even bothering with physical comics.

Since the digital reader's keeper is also his or her reader, each sale really does likely represent one buyer (whereas one buyer is likely responsible for more than one physical sale). That means the digital figures are probably a lot more reliable for assessing the size of readership.

My expectation is that digital sales won't fall nearly as dramatically as physical sales. Digital readers are obviously not speculators, as there's no chance at a resale. There will be only two reasons for a dip in digital sales: 1) speculators tire of buying a physical keeper and a digital reader or 2) readers lose their interest in the series itself.

Of course, DC is counting on a lot of people getting iPads, Nooks and Kindles for Christmas and then digital sales spiking again throughout January. I suspect they will, and that will be the best chance for the digital format to really establish itself.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

I'm a lapsed reader, and what got me reading again was Half Price Books. In the last year or so, I've picked up a lot of back issues there dirt cheap (many from their quarter boxes). I had no intention of reading any active books, but rather just filling in holes in my library and exploring books I heard were great, but passed on reading at the time. This relaunch just happened at a time when I was feelin' it enough to take a chance. Whenever they lose my interest, I'll bail. I'm not a collector anymore so I don't care about variant covers, owning every appearance of a character or anything that used to dominate my buying habits when I was younger. I'm enjoying this rejuvenation but DC ought to know they're on a very short leash.

I touched on this in the comment I left while you were leaving this one, but the short version is: I agree.

That's where I've scored the four New 52 issues I own. I can tell you that I went in on two consecutive Sundays. On the first Sunday, they had Action Comics and Batgirl on the shelves and by the second Sunday, they only had one Action remaining. They still have plenty of pre-relaunch issues on the shelves, so it was funny to see several copies of the last issue of Action Comics (#909 or something, maybe?) and only one issue of Action #1. Clearly, New 52 buyers at B&N aren't interested in the last vestiges of the pre-Flashpoint era.

Based solely on my anecdotal experience at one B&N on two consecutive visits, I'd say their sales have picked up on DC Comics, but they're not selling out at the same pace as comic shops. Which, frankly, is fine by me.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

And there goes one Starfire fan...
http://michelelee.net/2011/09/24/dea...omment-page-1/

Ok, regarding this little girl and the comic posted earlier: Even the old Starfire was not really suitable for kids, certainly not really a role model or anything like her incarnation on the animated Teen Titans (I shudder to think what fans of that series think when they go read comics about Raven). I think she was fine in Wolfman's hands (despite the costume), but after that nobody on the bat side of things really wanted to see her end up with Dick Grayson, so she kinda petered out in to the cosmic end of things and that was that. But the nu Starfire is just... ugh. I mean, it's in a book I'll never read (Arsenal/Roy Harper has been forever ruined to me, as has the-only-hero-in-the-history-of-comics-who-fans-actually-voted-to-die), but still. It's like the Teen Titans are the casualty of this reboot like Legion was to Crisis (good thing affirmative action has Cyborg in the JL).

And as for Catwoman... I realize that by this time we have writers who grew up as huge fans of these characters and thus we'll get glorified fanfics. People always say that Geoff Johns just loved Hal Jordan so much, even though he's pretty bland, and that's why he's written as this perfect Mary Sue-like character (I'm sure he'll get redeemed at the end of this story too). And really, bringing Barry back and changing his origin and then ignoring Wally was all Johns (surprising since he wrote Wally really well). But the Catwoman thing was just blatant, and I don't think you'll ever see something similar happening in a bat-book, certainly not a first issue. (keeping the ties to Starfire and the bat-books, for perhaps the worst example of fanfic/Mary Sue writing in a comic, see Nightwing written by Devin Grayson... the rape arc). I'm not a fan of Winick's superhero work anyway (this is the guy that wrote Graduation Day), and people that pick up his work kinda know what he's about, but still.

I've heard people hate Azarello's WW, and people absolutely love it, so I'm interested in seeing how it pans out in a few issues.

Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
 

If people were up in arms about Red Hood and Catwoman then they may have a completely mental collapse with this week's Voodoo. (I know she's not an iconic character or anything, but the entire thing takes place in a strip club, so......) :lol: