Harry Potter is evil, discuss.
11-07-01 | 09:19 PM
#1
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Harry Potter is evil, discuss.
I go to a Southern Baptist church so you can probably imagine the comments I hear about these books from people who have never read them. I've read all four and am proud to let people know. No, I don't think there evi, not any more than any other fairy tale.
11-07-01 | 10:14 PM
#2
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I have read book one and I am 1/4 of the way through book two. It is absolutely ridiculous that people say these books are evil. I consider myself a Christian and I see nothing wrong with these books...they are harmless.
wlj
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11-07-01 | 10:51 PM
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From: MN
11-09-01 | 04:52 PM
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Looks like the debate that sprang up after the books' popularity is rekindling with the approach of the feature film:
http://www.wtop.com/news/news-story.jhtml?NewsId=242252
By ANTHONY BREZNICAN
Associated Press Writer
LOS ANGELES (AP) _ The new Harry Potter movie heading to theaters next week has enflamed a small legion of conservative Christian critics who claim the boy wizard is a tool leading children to witchcraft and sin.
But as anticipation grows for "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone," other Christians insist the stories are harmless fantasies about magic and morals.
"I'm so tired of people saying he's evil," says Connie Neal, a Christian author who has investigated the Potter claims. "They're choosing to interpret the books in a very selective way."
Neal _ a mother of three and author of "What's a Christian to do with Harry Potter?" _ characterized herself as a "discreet fan."
Yet other authors maintain reservations about the mysticism of Harry's world, in which magical people predict the future, change shapes and communicate with ghosts.
"Although the story is fictional, Harry Potter has real-world occult parallels," said Richard Abanes, author of "Harry Potter and the Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick."
"The books present astrology, numerology mediumship, crystal gazing," he said. "Kids are enthralled with it. And kids like to copy."
Abanes embarked on an eight-city tour to promote his book before the Nov. 16 U.S. release of the Potter film, which stars newcomer Daniel Radcliffe as the boy who learns on his 11th birthday he has magical powers.
"There's a real religious concern," observes Jana Riess of Publishers Weekly, who moderated an Abanes-Neal debate at a July convention of Christian retailers. "Evangelical Christians believe that witchcraft is real."
But, she said, witchcraft in the Potter novels "is not a worldview in the way evangelicals would think of it." She likens the fuss to parallel complaints when "The Wizard of Oz" was published a century ago.
Scottish author J.K. Rowling calls the accusations "absurd," saying Harry Potter's world is entirely imaginary.
"I have met thousands of children now, and not even one time has a child come up to me and said, 'Ms. Rowling, I'm so glad I've read these books because now I want to be a witch,'" the author has said.
Though more than 50 million copies are in print worldwide, there has been no evidence of widespread conversions to paganism or witchcraft.
Andy Norfolk of the London-based Pagan Federation, said the youth-aimed Potter books have created no serious interest in his movement because the don't appeal to older people seeking spiritual options who "see them as rather uncool."
Enemies of Pottermania abound, nonetheless.
The Potter books top the banned book listing for 2000, compiled by the American Library Association.
Some have called for the books to be banned from public school libraries, claiming stories about witches and wizards violate church-state separation. Others have staged book burnings or circulated phony reports that claim the novels inspired thousands of children to join satanic cults.
A Kansas library recently canceled a reading of the books due to complaints about magical content. Some children in Jacksonville, Fla., must now present parental permission slips to read the books at school libraries.
"Satan is up to his old tricks again and the main focus is the children of the world," wrote Jon Watkins, a Baptist activist. "The whole purpose of these (Potter) books is to desensitize readers and introduce them to the occult."
On the Web page of self-described Christian occult investigator David Bay, a drawing shows a boy reading a Potter book while sitting on the lap of a grotesque demon that gorily pierces his skull.
"Harry Potter conditions children to think of witchcraft as harmless and even fun. That way, when the real antichrist arrives on the scene, they will be preconditioned to accept him," Bay said.
Bay and Watkins also denounce Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and much of secular life as nests of evil conspiracies _ views outside the beliefs of most Christians.
Neal fears churchgoing parents will prejudge the books without reading them. She thinks most children won't be harmed so long as parents help them understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
Christians "should use the help of God and our own common sense to do our best to be light in the world, not a laughing stock," she says.
http://www.wtop.com/news/news-story.jhtml?NewsId=242252
'Potter' Themes Anger Christians
By ANTHONY BREZNICAN
Associated Press Writer
LOS ANGELES (AP) _ The new Harry Potter movie heading to theaters next week has enflamed a small legion of conservative Christian critics who claim the boy wizard is a tool leading children to witchcraft and sin.
But as anticipation grows for "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone," other Christians insist the stories are harmless fantasies about magic and morals.
"I'm so tired of people saying he's evil," says Connie Neal, a Christian author who has investigated the Potter claims. "They're choosing to interpret the books in a very selective way."
Neal _ a mother of three and author of "What's a Christian to do with Harry Potter?" _ characterized herself as a "discreet fan."
Yet other authors maintain reservations about the mysticism of Harry's world, in which magical people predict the future, change shapes and communicate with ghosts.
"Although the story is fictional, Harry Potter has real-world occult parallels," said Richard Abanes, author of "Harry Potter and the Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick."
"The books present astrology, numerology mediumship, crystal gazing," he said. "Kids are enthralled with it. And kids like to copy."
Abanes embarked on an eight-city tour to promote his book before the Nov. 16 U.S. release of the Potter film, which stars newcomer Daniel Radcliffe as the boy who learns on his 11th birthday he has magical powers.
"There's a real religious concern," observes Jana Riess of Publishers Weekly, who moderated an Abanes-Neal debate at a July convention of Christian retailers. "Evangelical Christians believe that witchcraft is real."
But, she said, witchcraft in the Potter novels "is not a worldview in the way evangelicals would think of it." She likens the fuss to parallel complaints when "The Wizard of Oz" was published a century ago.
Scottish author J.K. Rowling calls the accusations "absurd," saying Harry Potter's world is entirely imaginary.
"I have met thousands of children now, and not even one time has a child come up to me and said, 'Ms. Rowling, I'm so glad I've read these books because now I want to be a witch,'" the author has said.
Though more than 50 million copies are in print worldwide, there has been no evidence of widespread conversions to paganism or witchcraft.
Andy Norfolk of the London-based Pagan Federation, said the youth-aimed Potter books have created no serious interest in his movement because the don't appeal to older people seeking spiritual options who "see them as rather uncool."
Enemies of Pottermania abound, nonetheless.
The Potter books top the banned book listing for 2000, compiled by the American Library Association.
Some have called for the books to be banned from public school libraries, claiming stories about witches and wizards violate church-state separation. Others have staged book burnings or circulated phony reports that claim the novels inspired thousands of children to join satanic cults.
A Kansas library recently canceled a reading of the books due to complaints about magical content. Some children in Jacksonville, Fla., must now present parental permission slips to read the books at school libraries.
"Satan is up to his old tricks again and the main focus is the children of the world," wrote Jon Watkins, a Baptist activist. "The whole purpose of these (Potter) books is to desensitize readers and introduce them to the occult."
On the Web page of self-described Christian occult investigator David Bay, a drawing shows a boy reading a Potter book while sitting on the lap of a grotesque demon that gorily pierces his skull.
"Harry Potter conditions children to think of witchcraft as harmless and even fun. That way, when the real antichrist arrives on the scene, they will be preconditioned to accept him," Bay said.
Bay and Watkins also denounce Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and much of secular life as nests of evil conspiracies _ views outside the beliefs of most Christians.
Neal fears churchgoing parents will prejudge the books without reading them. She thinks most children won't be harmed so long as parents help them understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
Christians "should use the help of God and our own common sense to do our best to be light in the world, not a laughing stock," she says.
11-09-01 | 04:58 PM
#5
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Uh oh...
Harry Potter Books Spark Rise In Satanism Among Children
From the article:
Harry Potter Books Spark Rise In Satanism Among Children
From the article:
"The Harry Potter books are cool, 'cause they teach you all about magic and how you can use it to control people and get revenge on your enemies," said Hartland, WI, 10-year-old Craig Nowell, a recent convert to the New Satanic Order Of The Black Circle. "I want to learn the Cruciatus Curse, to make my muggle science teacher suffer for giving me a D."
Last edited by Groucho; 11-09-01 at 05:30 PM.
11-09-01 | 06:34 PM
#6
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Originally posted by JustinS
Looks like the debate that sprang up after the books' popularity is rekindling with the approach of the feature film:
http://www.wtop.com/news/news-story.jhtml?NewsId=242252
Looks like the debate that sprang up after the books' popularity is rekindling with the approach of the feature film:
http://www.wtop.com/news/news-story.jhtml?NewsId=242252
11-09-01 | 06:50 PM
#7
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I haven't read them, but I think that Christianity sometimes is too concerned about fantasy. I think some believe there is no place for fantasy if you believe in God. I disagree with that notion. My wife has read them and says I would like them, but I have too many other books waiting before it, so who knows if I will get to it. Typical conversation with me and anyone about books...
Them: Have you read [insert any title]
Me: Did that one have Captain Kirk in it?
Them: No.
Me: Yeah, then I didn't read it.
Off topic. I have always wondered what this means. Does it mean many would not consider you Christian? Or that you are of a particular sect or denomination that some would not consider to be Christian? Just curious, because you mostly hear, "I am Christian," but sometimes you hear it the way you said it.
Them: Have you read [insert any title]
Me: Did that one have Captain Kirk in it?
Them: No.
Me: Yeah, then I didn't read it.
Originally posted by wlj
I consider myself a Christian and I see nothing wrong with these books...they are harmless.
I consider myself a Christian and I see nothing wrong with these books...they are harmless.
11-09-01 | 09:53 PM
#8
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I resent the idea that being a witch is evil.
Hey, in the dark ages, who burned, tortured, and murdered more than one hundred thousand people for practising a religion they didn't agree with. It certainly wasn't the witches or pagans.
I'm an atheist, but if I was going to choose a religion, I'd be a witch/wiccan. That's the religion that most closely resembles my own personal philosophies and ethics.
Hey, in the dark ages, who burned, tortured, and murdered more than one hundred thousand people for practising a religion they didn't agree with. It certainly wasn't the witches or pagans.
I'm an atheist, but if I was going to choose a religion, I'd be a witch/wiccan. That's the religion that most closely resembles my own personal philosophies and ethics.
Last edited by Josh-da-man; 11-09-01 at 09:56 PM.
11-09-01 | 10:59 PM
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From: Norman, OK
I'm a pretty big fan of the Harry Potter books (I don't like have t-shirts or anything, but I like the books 
) anyway, I don't see how anyone could possibly say the books are "evil"
Harry Potter is no more evil than Hansel and Gretel
) anyway, I don't see how anyone could possibly say the books are "evil"Harry Potter is no more evil than Hansel and Gretel
11-10-01 | 07:45 AM
#10
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Originally posted by JMLEWIS1
I'm a pretty big fan of the Harry Potter books (I don't like have t-shirts or anything, but I like the books) anyway, I don't see how anyone could possibly say the books are "evil"
Harry Potter is no more evil than Hansel and Gretel
I'm a pretty big fan of the Harry Potter books (I don't like have t-shirts or anything, but I like the books
) anyway, I don't see how anyone could possibly say the books are "evil"Harry Potter is no more evil than Hansel and Gretel
11-11-01 | 01:06 PM
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From: Canada
Originally posted by Josh-da-man
I resent the idea that being a witch is evil.
Hey, in the dark ages, who burned, tortured, and murdered more than one hundred thousand people for practising a religion they didn't agree with. It certainly wasn't the witches or pagans.
I'm an atheist, but if I was going to choose a religion, I'd be a witch/wiccan. That's the religion that most closely resembles my own personal philosophies and ethics.
I resent the idea that being a witch is evil.
Hey, in the dark ages, who burned, tortured, and murdered more than one hundred thousand people for practising a religion they didn't agree with. It certainly wasn't the witches or pagans.
I'm an atheist, but if I was going to choose a religion, I'd be a witch/wiccan. That's the religion that most closely resembles my own personal philosophies and ethics.
11-11-01 | 03:45 PM
#12
DVD Talk Limited Edition
What I find funny is these are the same "Christians" that pimp themselves. In the last 10 years I've seen more religion shirts and activities that use successful corporate America themes to try and sell religion. They alter logos of Nike, Reebok, No Fear, etc. for their t-shirts. They create religious acitivity groups that are similar in theme to the Power Rangers, etc. Don't get me started on the "slogan" of WWJD.
I am a big Harry Potter fan. I find it laughable (as would any educated person with the ability to freely use reason) that they construe them as propogation of satanism. But I'd rather them be against Harry Potter than for him and using him to market religion. That to me would be worse.
I am a big Harry Potter fan. I find it laughable (as would any educated person with the ability to freely use reason) that they construe them as propogation of satanism. But I'd rather them be against Harry Potter than for him and using him to market religion. That to me would be worse.
11-11-01 | 07:50 PM
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From: Olympia, WA
Harry Who?
Seriously though, I grew a fourth nipple after attempting to read one of dem darn blasted Harry Potter books full of dem dar satanic verses!
Peace & Love, Tony Block
Seriously though, I grew a fourth nipple after attempting to read one of dem darn blasted Harry Potter books full of dem dar satanic verses!
Peace & Love, Tony Block
11-12-01 | 05:59 PM
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From: Orlandoland, FL
The drive of Big Religion is superstition. Superstition makes people paranoid. Paranoia makes people act like morons.
These people who complain that Harry Potter is evil are just desperate to join a team and fight for a cause, even if the cause is moronic. And if you bring up things points like: What if I were to compare Harry Potter and Jesus Christ or What real-world evidence is there that directly links the story of Harry Potter to real-world danger... these superstitious simpletons will resort to a laughable: "God says I'm right".
And that's where the argument will always fall apart - God, as they put the idea across, can not exist. If an all-loving, caring God had endless power, Evil Harry Potter could not hit our bookshelves.
Dummies should work on their concept of God before they work on arguments against Harry Potter.
Or better yet, I hope they stay dumb - was their earlier ruckkas against Potter that got me to pick up the incredible book in the first place. Thanks for the recomendation, you supersitious, paranoid freaks.
- avenash.
These people who complain that Harry Potter is evil are just desperate to join a team and fight for a cause, even if the cause is moronic. And if you bring up things points like: What if I were to compare Harry Potter and Jesus Christ or What real-world evidence is there that directly links the story of Harry Potter to real-world danger... these superstitious simpletons will resort to a laughable: "God says I'm right".
And that's where the argument will always fall apart - God, as they put the idea across, can not exist. If an all-loving, caring God had endless power, Evil Harry Potter could not hit our bookshelves.
Dummies should work on their concept of God before they work on arguments against Harry Potter.
Or better yet, I hope they stay dumb - was their earlier ruckkas against Potter that got me to pick up the incredible book in the first place. Thanks for the recomendation, you supersitious, paranoid freaks.
- avenash.
11-13-01 | 04:23 PM
#16
DVD Talk God
Originally posted by Avenash
If an all-loving, caring God had endless power, Evil Harry Potter could not hit our bookshelves.
If an all-loving, caring God had endless power, Evil Harry Potter could not hit our bookshelves.
11-13-01 | 07:12 PM
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From: Orlandoland, FL
Originally posted by kvrdave
While I won't pick a fight, let's just say that this is ve simplistic and makes many assumptions of its own.
While I won't pick a fight, let's just say that this is ve simplistic and makes many assumptions of its own.
I wouldn't use simplistic and I don't see any assumptions. How about clear and logically obvious?
I'll spell it out. First we start with:
1. God is all good.
2. God is all-powerful.
3. Good is opposed to evil.
An all good being would have a goal in preventing evil Harry Potter from hitting bookshelves. An all-powerful being would have no problem accomplishing a goal. And yet, the fact remains, evil Harry Potter beat this mythical all-wonderful God.
Unless you give up one of the three claims above, this view of God will always run into this problem.
Expanding this: if you claim God can't stop Harry Potter because of his wish for free will you're claiming he's not all powerful - someone who "can't" do something isn't all-powerful, get it? If you say he won't because he likes to test people, he likes to sacrafice the many to save the few, that doesn't sound all-good - all good would be save all, (and (s)he's all powerful so it can be done!).
This stuff isn't complicated and I'm not going too deep into it. You'll touch on it if you take a couple intro to philosophy classes.
So no, it's not simplistic or assuming.
And if you're wondering, I'm not an atheist. I don't doubt that there's a God, I just doubt God's so concerned about stupid stuff, and I sometimes crack up at the idea that he's this grandfatherly giant, with a long white beard and a deep Darth Vader-like voice. Gimme a break!
And to bring this back to the big, main topic...
So my point is... these people who claim Harry Potter is evil should look more into what good is and what evil is and what God is before they try to apply these problematic, fatal ideas to Harry Potter.
Whew!
11-15-01 | 12:12 AM
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From: Between the beginning and the end
Well this is an interesting thread. First let me say that I'm a Christian who believes in God and Jesus Christ.
I've also read every single Harry Potter and have found them to be among the most enjoyable books I've read.
Now I find this reasoning a bit flawed
1. God is all good.
2. God is all-powerful.
3. Good is opposed to evil
This doesn't take into account the free will that we all have. God in his love for us gave us free will. Free will includes doing good works and evil works. That fact does not disprove that God is not all powerful.
It seems this reasoning comes down to this. Because evil exsits God doesn't.
I'm not claiming God can't stop Harry Potter because of free will. Perhaps God won't stop Harry Potter because of free will. He Gave us the world and it's ours to mess up or not mess up as we see fit.
Just because bad things happen doesn't mean God isn't good in my opinion. Again free will. One could say that a good God wouln't make a bunch of robots that have no choice but to follow. A good God would give his creation free will. Perhaps even a great God would give up his only son so that all of us have a free will choice to have eternal life.
And who said God was a giant with a white beard?
I think Harry Potter is a good thing..inspiring kids to read is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I think Christians who attack Harry potter are wrong to do so. It seems a few can be highly judgmental. I don't think a book about wizards and witches = evil. Some could claim the same about the bible as it discusses Satan and his evil deeds.
Sorry to babble on so long folks
I've also read every single Harry Potter and have found them to be among the most enjoyable books I've read.
Now I find this reasoning a bit flawed
1. God is all good.
2. God is all-powerful.
3. Good is opposed to evil
This doesn't take into account the free will that we all have. God in his love for us gave us free will. Free will includes doing good works and evil works. That fact does not disprove that God is not all powerful.
It seems this reasoning comes down to this. Because evil exsits God doesn't.
I'm not claiming God can't stop Harry Potter because of free will. Perhaps God won't stop Harry Potter because of free will. He Gave us the world and it's ours to mess up or not mess up as we see fit.
Just because bad things happen doesn't mean God isn't good in my opinion. Again free will. One could say that a good God wouln't make a bunch of robots that have no choice but to follow. A good God would give his creation free will. Perhaps even a great God would give up his only son so that all of us have a free will choice to have eternal life.
And who said God was a giant with a white beard?
I think Harry Potter is a good thing..inspiring kids to read is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I think Christians who attack Harry potter are wrong to do so. It seems a few can be highly judgmental. I don't think a book about wizards and witches = evil. Some could claim the same about the bible as it discusses Satan and his evil deeds.
Sorry to babble on so long folks
11-15-01 | 09:04 AM
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From: Phoenix, AZ
note: please don't be offended by these remarks - i am just using irony to show why the anti-Potter views are hypocritical and silly.
"The books present astrology, numerology mediumship, crystal gazing," he said. "Kids are enthralled with it. And kids like to copy."
yes, and the Bible has virgin birth, resurrection, apparitions, elaborate magic tricks (i.e. moses's story) and more! There is a thin line between 'fantasy' and 'faith' - it all depends on your perspective and what environment you grew up in.
"Others have staged book burnings or circulated phony reports that claim the novels inspired thousands of children to join satanic cults. "
The Bible inspires thousands of children to join christian 'cults'. I'm not trying to offend, but from an objective frame of mind, anything can be construed as a 'cult' if you stand outside of it & disagree with it. But to lie & create false reports that kids join cults after reading -- gosh, isn't that a sin?
"Satan is up to his old tricks again and the main focus is the children of the world," wrote Jon Watkins, a Baptist activist. "The whole purpose of these (Potter) books is to desensitize readers and introduce them to the occult."
Hmm, I rather think Satan is up to his tricks again by bending the (weak) minds of these ultra-conservative christians into dividing and attacking our good, honest US citizens. These are the same christian groups who hate all other religions, who blame the Sept 11 attack on gays, women, and jews, and who picketed w/ hateful, inflammatory and horrendously evil signs in front of Matthew Shepard's greiving mother during his funeral.
"The books present astrology, numerology mediumship, crystal gazing," he said. "Kids are enthralled with it. And kids like to copy."
yes, and the Bible has virgin birth, resurrection, apparitions, elaborate magic tricks (i.e. moses's story) and more! There is a thin line between 'fantasy' and 'faith' - it all depends on your perspective and what environment you grew up in.
"Others have staged book burnings or circulated phony reports that claim the novels inspired thousands of children to join satanic cults. "
The Bible inspires thousands of children to join christian 'cults'. I'm not trying to offend, but from an objective frame of mind, anything can be construed as a 'cult' if you stand outside of it & disagree with it. But to lie & create false reports that kids join cults after reading -- gosh, isn't that a sin?
"Satan is up to his old tricks again and the main focus is the children of the world," wrote Jon Watkins, a Baptist activist. "The whole purpose of these (Potter) books is to desensitize readers and introduce them to the occult."
Hmm, I rather think Satan is up to his tricks again by bending the (weak) minds of these ultra-conservative christians into dividing and attacking our good, honest US citizens. These are the same christian groups who hate all other religions, who blame the Sept 11 attack on gays, women, and jews, and who picketed w/ hateful, inflammatory and horrendously evil signs in front of Matthew Shepard's greiving mother during his funeral.
11-15-01 | 12:35 PM
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From: Olympia, WA
Originally posted by Pasolini
note: please don't be offended by these remarks - i am just using irony to show why the anti-Potter views are hypocritical and silly.
note: please don't be offended by these remarks - i am just using irony to show why the anti-Potter views are hypocritical and silly.
IMHO, people who say that their religion is RIGHT and all others are WRONG are taking too much for granted, just as those who say that no god exists are also taking too much for granted.
As Luis Bunuel used to say, with tongue firmly implanted in cheek: "!Soy ateo, gracias a Dios!"
cheers, MCB
11-15-01 | 12:57 PM
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From: Oswego, IL , U.S.A,
I found this to be one of most disturbing aspects of the story above in the following paragraph:
Didn't the Nazis burn books that were contrary to their beliefs? That was a primary method of supressing ideas that were contrary to their concept of a master race.
Any group that burns books shows their gross intolerance and is more of danger to society than those they purport to be defending against.
Book burning scares the hell of me because it is symptomatic of a much more serious problem.
Some have called for the books to be banned from public school libraries, claiming stories about witches and wizards violate church-state separation. Others have staged book burnings or circulated phony reports that claim the novels inspired thousands of children to join satanic cults.
Any group that burns books shows their gross intolerance and is more of danger to society than those they purport to be defending against.
Book burning scares the hell of me because it is symptomatic of a much more serious problem.
11-20-01 | 12:52 PM
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From: The Great White North.
Avenash...
First, let me note that I know nothing of the Harry Potter books, and I agree with the latter part of your note. However, as a Christian, I do have a problem with the section quoted above.
kvrdave is right that it is too simplistic. It ignores the underlying issue that is addressed in Christianity and the Bible... that being, is mankind capable of ruling itself better than (or at least as well as) God can? If you know your Bible, you know that this is the main theme. The reason God doesn't interfere in current events is that he's allowing us to prove that the answer is 'No'. At some point, before we go too far, he's going to step in and correct it all, but until then, 'this system is lying in the power of the wicked one'. That's the answer to the common question, 'Why does God let bad things happen to good people?' If you understand that concept, then your argument goes out the window.
I'll spell it out. First we start with:
1. God is all good.
2. God is all-powerful.
3. Good is opposed to evil.
An all good being would have a goal in preventing evil Harry Potter from hitting bookshelves. An all-powerful being would have no problem accomplishing a goal. And yet, the fact remains, evil Harry Potter beat this mythical all-wonderful God.
Unless you give up one of the three claims above, this view of God will always run into this problem.
Expanding this: if you claim God can't stop Harry Potter because of his wish for free will you're claiming he's not all powerful - someone who "can't" do something isn't all-powerful, get it? If you say he won't because he likes to test people, he likes to sacrafice the many to save the few, that doesn't sound all-good - all good would be save all, (and (s)he's all powerful so it can be done!).
1. God is all good.
2. God is all-powerful.
3. Good is opposed to evil.
An all good being would have a goal in preventing evil Harry Potter from hitting bookshelves. An all-powerful being would have no problem accomplishing a goal. And yet, the fact remains, evil Harry Potter beat this mythical all-wonderful God.
Unless you give up one of the three claims above, this view of God will always run into this problem.
Expanding this: if you claim God can't stop Harry Potter because of his wish for free will you're claiming he's not all powerful - someone who "can't" do something isn't all-powerful, get it? If you say he won't because he likes to test people, he likes to sacrafice the many to save the few, that doesn't sound all-good - all good would be save all, (and (s)he's all powerful so it can be done!).
kvrdave is right that it is too simplistic. It ignores the underlying issue that is addressed in Christianity and the Bible... that being, is mankind capable of ruling itself better than (or at least as well as) God can? If you know your Bible, you know that this is the main theme. The reason God doesn't interfere in current events is that he's allowing us to prove that the answer is 'No'. At some point, before we go too far, he's going to step in and correct it all, but until then, 'this system is lying in the power of the wicked one'. That's the answer to the common question, 'Why does God let bad things happen to good people?' If you understand that concept, then your argument goes out the window.
11-24-01 | 01:20 PM
#23
DVD Talk God
Originally posted by Avenash
Sigh.
I wouldn't use simplistic and I don't see any assumptions. How about clear and logically obvious?
I'll spell it out. First we start with:
1. God is all good.
2. God is all-powerful.
3. Good is opposed to evil.
An all good being would have a goal in preventing evil Harry Potter from hitting bookshelves. An all-powerful being would have no problem accomplishing a goal. And yet, the fact remains, evil Harry Potter beat this mythical all-wonderful God.
Unless you give up one of the three claims above, this view of God will always run into this problem.
Expanding this: if you claim God can't stop Harry Potter because of his wish for free will you're claiming he's not all powerful - someone who "can't" do something isn't all-powerful, get it? If you say he won't because he likes to test people, he likes to sacrafice the many to save the few, that doesn't sound all-good - all good would be save all, (and (s)he's all powerful so it can be done!).
This stuff isn't complicated and I'm not going too deep into it. You'll touch on it if you take a couple intro to philosophy classes.
So no, it's not simplistic or assuming.
So my point is... these people who claim Harry Potter is evil should look more into what good is and what evil is and what God is before they try to apply these problematic, fatal ideas to Harry Potter.
Whew!
Sigh.
I wouldn't use simplistic and I don't see any assumptions. How about clear and logically obvious?
I'll spell it out. First we start with:
1. God is all good.
2. God is all-powerful.
3. Good is opposed to evil.
An all good being would have a goal in preventing evil Harry Potter from hitting bookshelves. An all-powerful being would have no problem accomplishing a goal. And yet, the fact remains, evil Harry Potter beat this mythical all-wonderful God.
Unless you give up one of the three claims above, this view of God will always run into this problem.
Expanding this: if you claim God can't stop Harry Potter because of his wish for free will you're claiming he's not all powerful - someone who "can't" do something isn't all-powerful, get it? If you say he won't because he likes to test people, he likes to sacrafice the many to save the few, that doesn't sound all-good - all good would be save all, (and (s)he's all powerful so it can be done!).
This stuff isn't complicated and I'm not going too deep into it. You'll touch on it if you take a couple intro to philosophy classes.
So no, it's not simplistic or assuming.
So my point is... these people who claim Harry Potter is evil should look more into what good is and what evil is and what God is before they try to apply these problematic, fatal ideas to Harry Potter.
Whew!
Let me say again that you make assumptions of your own that are simplistic. By your logic, because God can do a thing (wipe out HP), God must do a thing (wipe out HP). And if He MUST do a thing, he is compelled by a force other than His own and is not all powerful. Or if He doesn't do that thing, he is not all good.
You say you don't see any assumptions in what you said. Tell me what this is...
An all good being would have a goal in preventing evil Harry Potter from hitting bookshelves
And I don't even think HP is evil. But I also think that once you get out of intro philosophy classes, you will see that it is not as simple as you make it. I really am not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out my opinion.
God is love
Love is blind.
Thus, Ray Charles is God.
12-04-01 | 12:49 PM
#24
DVD Talk Hero
I'm the son of a minister, and have spent my entire life around people who both love and hate God.
Here's what I've figured out. Even if you are Christian, you're still a person. Even if you are an atheist, you're still a person.
People are still cruel, they still have their prejudices, and no one is a good person simply because they believe a certain faith. They are good people because they choose to be.
People who fight "Harry Potter" would fight anything. This just happens to be convenient. They have deep-seated fears, and seeing children reading books about witchcraft feeds those fears, so they lash out and attempt to change things.
Same with the people who picketed Shepard's funeral. It's their own personal fears and problems, and they found a "faith" that supports those feelings, so they latch on and let it feed their fears.
People have trouble looking into themselves. They can point fingers and tell someone else what they are doing is wrong, but they can't do it to themselves. It's pointless to argue about things like this, because I'm sure it's a rarity that someone says something so profound that it changes their outlook on life. They need to figure it out themselves, or they will just be unhappy people their entire lives.
"Harry Potter" isn't influencing kids to pursue withcraft. Most rational, well-adjusted people realize that. These are very confused, very unhappy people.
Here's what I've figured out. Even if you are Christian, you're still a person. Even if you are an atheist, you're still a person.
People are still cruel, they still have their prejudices, and no one is a good person simply because they believe a certain faith. They are good people because they choose to be.
People who fight "Harry Potter" would fight anything. This just happens to be convenient. They have deep-seated fears, and seeing children reading books about witchcraft feeds those fears, so they lash out and attempt to change things.
Same with the people who picketed Shepard's funeral. It's their own personal fears and problems, and they found a "faith" that supports those feelings, so they latch on and let it feed their fears.
People have trouble looking into themselves. They can point fingers and tell someone else what they are doing is wrong, but they can't do it to themselves. It's pointless to argue about things like this, because I'm sure it's a rarity that someone says something so profound that it changes their outlook on life. They need to figure it out themselves, or they will just be unhappy people their entire lives.
"Harry Potter" isn't influencing kids to pursue withcraft. Most rational, well-adjusted people realize that. These are very confused, very unhappy people.