bruceames

Old habits die hard I guess, and many don't want to wait until the price drops. The only (legal) alternative is buying/renting digital, and most people still see that as a lessor value, IMO. Once special features show up and the Common File Format comes out, then the value gap should diminish and digital will become more of the habit. But I think 4k will be what really starts driving digital purchases more than anything, as it will be the next greatest thing.

E Unit

That is possible, although I highly doubt physical media will ever die out. It'll stay in some form.

bruceames

I agree as well. But it looks like 4k will be coming to digital first and unlikely that it will come to physical. If that's the case then we'll have a scenario where the best version will be in digital form only, which runs contrary to what many look for primarily in a physical purchase (the best version available). If there is a 4k format that is digital only then I will be treating Blu-ray like I did with DVD: only buying it if I don't think it'll ever come to 4k. Fortunately though 4k probably will be very limited in the number of titles that it will see...or maybe not, who knows.

bunkaroo

I don't see how 4K will be possible any time soon as a download only format. The bandwidth and storage needed for 4K movies would be prohibitive for most people right now. I don't see it being a media-based format either.

E Unit

Another reason why I don't see physical media ever dying. Steaming 4k would take a hell of a lot of bandwidth. Even with gigabit services on the horizon, unless those services allow unlimited bandwidth, a movie or 2 at 4k would cap out most people's plans. Right now blu ray stands to maintain if they get their act together on the 100GB dics that can store full 4k.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7...to-4k-blu-ray/


100GB discs point to 4K Blu-ray

An announcement by Singulus Technologies, a maker of replication machines that produce Blu-ray discs, points toward a new standard for 4K Blu-ray

A physical media standard for next-generation 4K video now looks closer than ever.

A German optical disc replication equipment maker by the name of Singulus Technologies has announced details on a new machine, the Bluline III, capable of manufacturing triple-layer Blu-ray discs that can store up to 100GB.

"The triple-layer Blu-ray discs with 100GB storage capacity, is the preferred playback medium for the new 4K technology" reads the Singulus release.

The current Blu-ray disc standard used by most home video releases supports capacities up to 50GB.

The announcement of machines capable of delivering higher-capacity pressed discs comes prior to any official word from the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), the industry coalition that's currently discussing a new standard for 4K Blu-ray in its committees.

But as HDTVTest.uk rightly points out, the new Singulus machines are as solid an indicator as any that an official 4K Blu-ray format is on the way soon: "After all, there would be no other use for a machine capable of manufacturing factory-pressed 100GB discs if a hardware update was not imminent."

The last such major announcement of a Blu-ray specification by the BDA was December 2009, when the association revealed the 3D Blu-ray spec. Plenty of 4K news is expected around the time of the 2014 Consumer Electronics Show in January, which seems a natural time for the BDA to make 4K Blu-ray official, absent any delays.

Sony's proprietary video player notwithstanding, lack of content is one of the major knocks against 4K. With the 4K-friendlier HDMI 2.0 standard finally official, and numerous new 4K sets hitting the market at ever-more-affordable prices, the industry's pumps are primed to address that lack.

fitprod

Well digital is only as good as your internet provider... While improving in the US it still has a long way to go, especially if they're going to provide 4K content.

As for the CFF format... That nice, but UV still has the little dark secret that most people don't notice. The providers of your UV files (not the studios) will have the option to start charging people for access. (read the fine print...)

And let's not forget, what happens when one of the providers goes down or completely under. Then where's your purchase go?

fitprod

PhantomStranger

What began to kill CD will also eventually decimate Blu-ray- the lack of retail shelf space for it. Brick&Mortar shopping for the format has become a pale shadow of its once expansive glory. Dedicated media stores have all but died and the major chains continue to shrink retail space allocated to media. Fewer and fewer customers will switch to Internet retailers for their media habit. Why have something shipped to you when it can be streamed? Casual customers buy on impulse in-person.

The studios recognize it is now or never to use many of the HD transfers they've accumulated over the years and try to get some return on their investment. Because however small the market is now for that obscure 1958 film on Blu-ray, it will be vastly smaller in 2-4 years. They are desperate to capture those sales before they go away.
This thread took a huge hit when Kosty passed away, as he had disseminated a huge amount of data regarding Blu-ray's sales while he was alive.

hanshotfirst1138

On a more practical note, how useful would 4K be to the average consumer? Unless you have a really badass projector, doesn't there come a juncture where you're just showing off?

bruceames

Well Sony already came out with a player that's download only. Remember 4K will use a more efficient codec so movie file sizes won't need to be 4x bigger. So I don't see how downloading speeds limits future 4k sell-through. Should take only a few hours perhaps to download a movie and internet speeds will only get faster as time goes on.

I do see it limited in streaming though, at least for the next few years.

Alan Smithee

What killed CD was the greedy record companies raising the prices every few years. CDs were list-priced at $18.99 by the time Tower went under. I've seen a few decently-priced CDs since then but Blu-Rays and DVDs are still a better value most of the time. Favorite example was when you could buy a movie on DVD for much less than its soundtrack CD! I was a rabid CD buyer in the 80s and early 90s, but when prices started going up I backed off and lost my passion for it. And no, I'm not buying MP3s instead!

I'll never support a digital-only purchase model- those who don't remember DIVX shall be condemned to repeat it.

bruceames

For downloading, digital is only as good as the file that is downloaded. The internet only affects the speed that it takes to download it. Blu-ray is nothing more than digital on disc.

UV purchases are independent of the provider. A provider is just like a player. If one goes bad, get another one. Of course, if you buy a movie directly from VUDU or iTunes, then that purchase is tied to the provider. However, it is not a UV purchase (which is secured through the UV Consortium). That's what makes UV stand out, as it has so much industry support. Kinda like what Blu-ray had?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraViolet_%28system%29

bunkaroo

I still think ISP's will be a major hurdle in the 4K scenario. Also, if the data is downloaded to a 4K player, what's its capacity? Are you going to have clear movies off of there and then re-download if you want to see them again?

bruceames

I wouldn't hold your breath. It would be great if 4k came to Blu-ray, but there are obstacles.

1) Blu-ray sales have been disappointing, peaking at less than $2.5 billion in the US, less than 20% of DVD's peak. Also, Blu-ray still has only 30% of the optical disc market, 7 1/2 years since launch. Translation: Consumers are still content with DVD. So the sales potential is not very encouraging.

2) Copy protection. Blu-ray was cracked almost from day one, despite boasting of bullet-proof copy protection. It was a joke and is now just about as copyable as DVD. I know Fox and perhaps Disney signed on to Blu-ray in large part because of promises of superior copy protection, so they have been let down. More promises on a 4k format will leave everyone very skeptical and would take a long time to develop and nail down a protection portfolio that everyone can live with. I don't see that happening.

3) Sony has been vocal about keeping 4k as a digital format, and given they were the pioneers behind Blu-ray and their enormous contributions on winning the format war with HD DVD, I think their opinion carries a lot of weight.

I would love to be wrong though, but will see. Doesn't look good from my seat.

bruceames

Storage space is only about 50 cents a gigabyte. A 4K movie encoded is the superior H.265 codec should only be about 30 gb or even less. And storage per GB will only get cheaper.

Also keep in mind that you don't need to keep all your movies in local storage, only the ones you plan on watching. The rest can be stored in the cloud and downloaded as desired if you're short on space.

bruceames

Well digital sell-though is up 50 percent this year, so I don't think that's a bad sign for Ultraviolet. Certainly not indicative that it's going to flop.

bruceames

No, they are counted 100% as disc purchases.

bunkaroo

But again, that means more hits against your bandwidth. Plus, I don't want to be at the mercy of my internet connection or a cloud service when I want to watch something I paid for. Anyone remember the Netflix outage last Christmas?

And even if local storage gets cheaper, you now have to become a data manager, making sure data is backed up properly and regularly. Most people don't want to think about that. For as antiquated as physical media may be becoming, it is still the best option for offline viewing IMO.

bruceames

Yes, if you have bandwidth limits or are paying per GB, then that does add an extra cost component.


I think it's much easier to manage digital files than it is to manage a disc collection. And even though the storage space for a large disc collection is a sunk cost, it does "cost" you to store it there (the cost is not being able to store something else there). And if you look at it from how much you are paying per square foot, then you can measure your OD storage cost in actual dollars. It's not really free you know.

bruceames

it is a license, but the disc itself as well is actually only transport mechanism of a licensed copy. So both are licenses. You don't really "own" that movie on disc, just the physical piece of 5" plastic itself (the transport).

No expiration date once you download or enter in your UV code. The expiration date is for how long you have to redeem that code. For UV codes, it is certainly longer than one year.

bunkaroo

You're really reaching here. I mean sure, if I live in Manhattan, I might be worried about cost per sq. foot. But I'm sure it's a non-issue for most.

And I'm not really sure how much easier it can be than simply placing a disc on my shelf. With digital storage, I should really have at least one redundant backup, if not two. Even if the storage was dirt cheap, it still represents more of my time than simply shelving a disc.

bruceames

I meant to convey that there is a cost component of storing your disc collection, just like there is in storing a disc on a hard drive. it may be less, maybe not. If you already own several hard drives, then those, like your home, is a sunk cost.

I have a hunch that most of those with large collections (say over 1000) will not consider storage a "non-issue". It certainly is with me and has been for a long time. And I don't even live in Manhattan.

bruceames

Ok, sure, you "own" the bits on disc. Just like you "own" the bits of a digital download that's stored on a hard drive connected to your PC. Not sure where you're going with this, but the fact remains that regardless of the medium you only really "own" the license to view the movie.

TheBang

Sony already launched their Video Unlimited 4K download service in September. There are over 70 films available in 4K.

The Sony FMP-X1 is 2 TB.
And for your second question, I believe it's Yes and Yes.

Not exactly. Your original purchase is tied to a specific "UV Selling Retailer". They are the only ones that owe you any services (and only for a specific amount of time for free) under the UV agreement. If you get streaming services on a title from other providers, or streaming services from the Selling Retailer beyond one year from purchase, it's at their discretion, but not guaranteed. So far, everyone's gotten that all for free, but don't be fooled into thinking that you are guaranteed rights that you don't actually have under the UV terms. Read the fine print.

It's 1 year. Again, you need to read the fine print. Enjoy: http://www.uvvu.com/uv-offer-details.php

bruceames

We're talking apples and oranges. Sure the streaming providers can charge you for their services, just like a Blu-ray disc player costs you money.

Once you download a UV code for streaming or download, you own the license forever for that copy. No expiration date on your collection. Read the fine print.

TheBang

This is incorrect. In the U.S. we have First Sale Doctrine, and you own that particular copy of the movie on disc (note, we're talking about DVD's/Blu-ray's here, not the digital copy). There is no license.

No, sorry, you are incorrect. I was talking about UV providers. You need to read the fine print I linked.

Here, I'll summarize the relevant parts. You think you get streaming forever because you have a license forever. You are wrong. If you read the terms, you'll see that you get a "record of the title" forever. That recordation grants you certain rights. The only guaranteed rights you get from that are one year of free streaming from the UV Retailer you bought it from. Anything else you are getting for free is above and beyond what they obligated to give you. So far, all the providers have given those things for free. But they are not obligated to do so, and they can charge you a fee. Someday, you will no longer get it for free.