Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
#201
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Here's one analysis on where it's coming from:
http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/29/594...for-your-games
http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/29/594...for-your-games
#202
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
That seems like par for the course on some video game message boards, whether the target is male or female... :P
#203
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
kidz
#204
Banned by request
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Badass Digest put up a great article on this subject (and the repeated torrent of abuse from random gamers is one of the main reasons I rarely ever play multiplayer-centric games anymore, Destiny being the first big exception in a long time): http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/26/v...e-to-assholes/
#206
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
I’ve killed 10’s of thousands of people (mostly men) in more games than I can count. I don’t see how pointing out that woman are treated negatively in games really makes a difference to the overall issue of violence in today’s video games.
#207
DVD Talk Legend
#208
Banned by request
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
There are plenty of anti-violence advocates who focus on gaming. I see no reason why feminists should not also be able to air their criticisms on gaming and the industry as a result.
#209
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
It's amazing just how often dead or beaten prostitutes appear in so many games. They show up a lot. I mean...a LOT. Even SVU pales in comparison. Game developers have some issues to work through.
D
D
#210
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Some people just aren't good sports. All my friends play games. Yet, I have one friend who routinely gets suspended from chat in DOTA. It's a running joke. He thinks he's the best, and if his team loses, it's definitely everyone else's fault.
However, I think people who give up on online are also part of the problem. I play online, and I like to play a team game and have fun with teammates. I make an effort to be friendly, say hi, and get people talking. I think if you avoid online gaming, and leave it to the assholes, that it just gets worse. You have to get involved and be a positive person. Sounds cheesy, but I notice the people who quit always talk about the negativity.
I have mostly good experiences because I end up looking for and partying with strangers who are looking for the same experience as me. The good times are out there. If we leave gaming to the misogynists and assholes, that's what is going to be left there.
However, I think people who give up on online are also part of the problem. I play online, and I like to play a team game and have fun with teammates. I make an effort to be friendly, say hi, and get people talking. I think if you avoid online gaming, and leave it to the assholes, that it just gets worse. You have to get involved and be a positive person. Sounds cheesy, but I notice the people who quit always talk about the negativity.
I have mostly good experiences because I end up looking for and partying with strangers who are looking for the same experience as me. The good times are out there. If we leave gaming to the misogynists and assholes, that's what is going to be left there.
#211
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Some people just aren't good sports. All my friends play games. Yet, I have one friend who routinely gets suspended from chat in DOTA. It's a running joke. He thinks he's the best, and if his team loses, it's definitely everyone else's fault.
However, I think people who give up on online are also part of the problem. I play online, and I like to play a team game and have fun with teammates. I make an effort to be friendly, say hi, and get people talking. I think if you avoid online gaming, and leave it to the assholes, that it just gets worse. You have to get involved and be a positive person. Sounds cheesy, but I notice the people who quit always talk about the negativity.
I have mostly good experiences because I end up looking for and partying with strangers who are looking for the same experience as me. The good times are out there. If we leave gaming to the misogynists and assholes, that's what is going to be left there.
However, I think people who give up on online are also part of the problem. I play online, and I like to play a team game and have fun with teammates. I make an effort to be friendly, say hi, and get people talking. I think if you avoid online gaming, and leave it to the assholes, that it just gets worse. You have to get involved and be a positive person. Sounds cheesy, but I notice the people who quit always talk about the negativity.
I have mostly good experiences because I end up looking for and partying with strangers who are looking for the same experience as me. The good times are out there. If we leave gaming to the misogynists and assholes, that's what is going to be left there.
When I used to do clan stuff, of course we chatted. Randoms on the internet? Pull the plug and let them rant into the ether.
#212
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Here's a great piece by Dan Golding about how the "gamer" identity is now broken. And these douchebags are lashing out because their identity is now no longer their own.
The End of Gamers
The last few weeks in videogame culture have seen a level of combativeness more marked and bitter than any beforehand.
First, a developer—a woman who makes games who has had so much piled on to her that I don’t want to perpetuate things by naming her—was the target of a harassment campaign that attacked her personal life and friendships. Campaigns of personal harassment aimed at game developers are nothing new. They are dismayingly common among those who happen to be women, or not white straight men, and doubly so if they also happen to make the sort of game that in any way challenge the status quo, even if that challenge is only made through their very existence. The viciousness and ferocity with which this campaign occurred, however, was shocking, and certainly out of the ordinary. This was something more than routine misogyny (and in games, it often is routine, shockingly). It was an ugly spectacle that should haunt and shame those involved for the rest of their lives.
It’s important to note that this hate campaign took the guise of a crusade against ‘corruption’ and ‘bias’ in the games industry, with particular emphasis on the relationships between independent game developers and the press.
These fires, already burning hot, were further fuelled yesterday by the release of the latest installment in Anita Sarkeesian’s ‘Tropes vs. Women in Video Games’ video series. In this particular video, Sarkeesian outlines “largely insignificant non-playable female characters whose sexuality or victimhood is exploited as a way to infuse edgy, gritty or racy flavoring into game worlds. These sexually objectified female bodies are designed to function as environmental texture while titillating presumed straight male players.” Today, Sarkeesian has been forced to leave her home due to some serious threats made against her and her family in response to the video. It is terrifying stuff.
Taken in their simplest, most basic form, a videogame is a creative application of computer technology. For a while, perhaps, when such technology was found mostly in masculine cultures, videogames accordingly developed a limited, inwards-looking perception of the world that marked them as different from everyone else. This is the gamer, an identity based on difference and separateness. When playing games was an unusual activity, this identity was constructed in order to define and unite the group (and to help demarcate it as a targetable demographic for business). It became deeply bound up in assumptions and performances of gender and sexuality. To be a gamer was to signal a great many things, not all of which are about the actual playing of videogames. Research like this, by Adrienne Shaw, proves this point clearly.
When, over the last decade, the playing of videogames moved beyond the niche, the gamer identity remained fairly uniformly stagnant and immobile. Gamer identity was simply not fluid enough to apply to a broad spectrum of people. It could not meaningfully contain, for example, Candy Crush players, Proteus players, and Call of Duty players simultaneously. When videogames changed, the gamer identity did not stretch, and so it has been broken.
And lest you think that I’m exaggerating about the irrelevance of the traditionally male dominated gamer identity, recent news confirms this, with adult women outnumbering teenage boys in game-playing demographics in the USA. Similar numbers also often come out of Australian surveys. The predictable ‘what kind of games do they really play, though—are they really gamers?’ response says all you need to know about this ongoing demographic shift. This insinuated criteria for ‘real’ videogames is wholly contingent on identity (i.e. a real gamer shouldn’t play Candy Crush, for instance).
On the evidence of the last few weeks, what we are seeing is the end of gamers, and the viciousness that accompanies the death of an identity. Due to fundamental shifts in the videogame audience, and a move towards progressive attitudes within more traditional areas of videogame culture, the gamer identity has been broken. It has nowhere to call home, and so it reaches out inarticulately at invented problems, such as bias and corruption, which are partly just ways of expressing confusion as to why things the traditional gamer does not understand are successful (that such confusion results in abject heartlessness is an indictment on the character of the male-focussed gamer culture to begin with).
The gamer as an identity feels like it is under assault, and so it should. Though the ‘consumer king’ gamer will continue to be targeted and exploited while their profitability as a demographic outweighs their toxicity, the traditional gamer identity is now culturally irrelevant.
The battles (and I don’t use that word lightly; in some ways perhaps ‘war’ is more appropriate) to make safe spaces for videogame cultures are long and they are resisted tempestuously, but through the pain and suffering of people who have their friendships, their personal lives, and their professions on the line, things continue to improve. The result has been a palpable progressive shift.
This shift is precisely the root of such increasingly violent hostility. The hysterical fits of those inculcated at the heart of gamer culture might on the surface be claimed as crusades for journalistic integrity, or a defense against falsehoods, but—along with a mix of the hatred of women and an expansive bigotry thrown in for good measure—what is actually going on is an attempt to retain hegemony. Make no mistake: this is the exertion of power in the name of (male) gamer orthodoxy—an orthodoxy that has already begun to disappear.
The last few weeks therefore represent the moment that gamers realised their own irrelevance. This is a cold wind that has been a long time coming, and which has framed these increasingly malicious incidents along the way. Videogames have now achieved a purchase on popular culture that is only possible without gamers.
Today, videogames are for everyone. I mean this in an almost destructive way. Videogames, to read the other side of the same statement, are not for you. You do not get to own videogames. No one gets to own videogames when they are for everyone. They add up to more than any one group.
On some level, the grim individuals who are self-centred and myopic enough to be upset at the prospect of having their medium taken away from them are absolutely right. They have astutely, and correctly identified what is going on here. Their toys are being taken away, and their treehouses are being boarded up. Videogames now live in the world and there is no going back.
I am convinced that this marks the end. We are finished here. From now on, there are no more gamers—only players.
The last few weeks in videogame culture have seen a level of combativeness more marked and bitter than any beforehand.
First, a developer—a woman who makes games who has had so much piled on to her that I don’t want to perpetuate things by naming her—was the target of a harassment campaign that attacked her personal life and friendships. Campaigns of personal harassment aimed at game developers are nothing new. They are dismayingly common among those who happen to be women, or not white straight men, and doubly so if they also happen to make the sort of game that in any way challenge the status quo, even if that challenge is only made through their very existence. The viciousness and ferocity with which this campaign occurred, however, was shocking, and certainly out of the ordinary. This was something more than routine misogyny (and in games, it often is routine, shockingly). It was an ugly spectacle that should haunt and shame those involved for the rest of their lives.
It’s important to note that this hate campaign took the guise of a crusade against ‘corruption’ and ‘bias’ in the games industry, with particular emphasis on the relationships between independent game developers and the press.
These fires, already burning hot, were further fuelled yesterday by the release of the latest installment in Anita Sarkeesian’s ‘Tropes vs. Women in Video Games’ video series. In this particular video, Sarkeesian outlines “largely insignificant non-playable female characters whose sexuality or victimhood is exploited as a way to infuse edgy, gritty or racy flavoring into game worlds. These sexually objectified female bodies are designed to function as environmental texture while titillating presumed straight male players.” Today, Sarkeesian has been forced to leave her home due to some serious threats made against her and her family in response to the video. It is terrifying stuff.
Taken in their simplest, most basic form, a videogame is a creative application of computer technology. For a while, perhaps, when such technology was found mostly in masculine cultures, videogames accordingly developed a limited, inwards-looking perception of the world that marked them as different from everyone else. This is the gamer, an identity based on difference and separateness. When playing games was an unusual activity, this identity was constructed in order to define and unite the group (and to help demarcate it as a targetable demographic for business). It became deeply bound up in assumptions and performances of gender and sexuality. To be a gamer was to signal a great many things, not all of which are about the actual playing of videogames. Research like this, by Adrienne Shaw, proves this point clearly.
When, over the last decade, the playing of videogames moved beyond the niche, the gamer identity remained fairly uniformly stagnant and immobile. Gamer identity was simply not fluid enough to apply to a broad spectrum of people. It could not meaningfully contain, for example, Candy Crush players, Proteus players, and Call of Duty players simultaneously. When videogames changed, the gamer identity did not stretch, and so it has been broken.
And lest you think that I’m exaggerating about the irrelevance of the traditionally male dominated gamer identity, recent news confirms this, with adult women outnumbering teenage boys in game-playing demographics in the USA. Similar numbers also often come out of Australian surveys. The predictable ‘what kind of games do they really play, though—are they really gamers?’ response says all you need to know about this ongoing demographic shift. This insinuated criteria for ‘real’ videogames is wholly contingent on identity (i.e. a real gamer shouldn’t play Candy Crush, for instance).
On the evidence of the last few weeks, what we are seeing is the end of gamers, and the viciousness that accompanies the death of an identity. Due to fundamental shifts in the videogame audience, and a move towards progressive attitudes within more traditional areas of videogame culture, the gamer identity has been broken. It has nowhere to call home, and so it reaches out inarticulately at invented problems, such as bias and corruption, which are partly just ways of expressing confusion as to why things the traditional gamer does not understand are successful (that such confusion results in abject heartlessness is an indictment on the character of the male-focussed gamer culture to begin with).
The gamer as an identity feels like it is under assault, and so it should. Though the ‘consumer king’ gamer will continue to be targeted and exploited while their profitability as a demographic outweighs their toxicity, the traditional gamer identity is now culturally irrelevant.
The battles (and I don’t use that word lightly; in some ways perhaps ‘war’ is more appropriate) to make safe spaces for videogame cultures are long and they are resisted tempestuously, but through the pain and suffering of people who have their friendships, their personal lives, and their professions on the line, things continue to improve. The result has been a palpable progressive shift.
This shift is precisely the root of such increasingly violent hostility. The hysterical fits of those inculcated at the heart of gamer culture might on the surface be claimed as crusades for journalistic integrity, or a defense against falsehoods, but—along with a mix of the hatred of women and an expansive bigotry thrown in for good measure—what is actually going on is an attempt to retain hegemony. Make no mistake: this is the exertion of power in the name of (male) gamer orthodoxy—an orthodoxy that has already begun to disappear.
The last few weeks therefore represent the moment that gamers realised their own irrelevance. This is a cold wind that has been a long time coming, and which has framed these increasingly malicious incidents along the way. Videogames have now achieved a purchase on popular culture that is only possible without gamers.
Today, videogames are for everyone. I mean this in an almost destructive way. Videogames, to read the other side of the same statement, are not for you. You do not get to own videogames. No one gets to own videogames when they are for everyone. They add up to more than any one group.
On some level, the grim individuals who are self-centred and myopic enough to be upset at the prospect of having their medium taken away from them are absolutely right. They have astutely, and correctly identified what is going on here. Their toys are being taken away, and their treehouses are being boarded up. Videogames now live in the world and there is no going back.
I am convinced that this marks the end. We are finished here. From now on, there are no more gamers—only players.
#213
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
It's not my job to fix other people. Whenever I play online, I just mute all the other headsets and turn mine off/unplug. No need to talk to people since 99% of them won't listen to any sort of strategy anyway.
When I used to do clan stuff, of course we chatted. Randoms on the internet? Pull the plug and let them rant into the ether.
When I used to do clan stuff, of course we chatted. Randoms on the internet? Pull the plug and let them rant into the ether.
Most of the people in the lobbies are the same as you. No mic, no communication, or else they are in private parties.
It's not that hard to find a decent group to play with if you put yourself out there. Obviously that's your choice to avoid it, but if you want to play with other people you have to dive in.
#214
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Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
*sigh*
Tropes vs Women author Sarkeesian vacates home following online threats
Tropes vs Women author Sarkeesian vacates home following online threats
The prominent games essayist Anita Sarkeesian vacated her home on Wednesday following a spate of increasingly severe threats from anonymous critics of her work.
Sarkeesian, whose video articles showcase negative representations of women in video games, often publishes captions of threats she is sent via Twitter, email and though other communication channels. Many of these threats include sexual violence, while some mention her address and family.
On Wednesday the situation had escalated to the point that she contacted the authorities and vacated her home.
"Some very scary threats have just been made against me and my family. Contacting authorities now," she wrote on Twitter, before adding:
"I'm safe. Authorities have been notified. Staying with friends tonight. I'm not giving up. But this harassment of women in tech must stop!"
The threats and hateful comments sent to Sarkeesian are often in response to her collection of essays, called Tropes Versus Women, which examines why women are often represented as powerless, sexualised and enfeebled characters in games.
Though a vocal, and often abusive, minority of games enthusiasts condemn her work, Sarkeesian's analysis is widely praised by some of the most prominent games industry figures, from Tim Schafer to Naughty Dog creative director Neil Druckman.
Sarkeesian, whose video articles showcase negative representations of women in video games, often publishes captions of threats she is sent via Twitter, email and though other communication channels. Many of these threats include sexual violence, while some mention her address and family.
On Wednesday the situation had escalated to the point that she contacted the authorities and vacated her home.
"Some very scary threats have just been made against me and my family. Contacting authorities now," she wrote on Twitter, before adding:
"I'm safe. Authorities have been notified. Staying with friends tonight. I'm not giving up. But this harassment of women in tech must stop!"
The threats and hateful comments sent to Sarkeesian are often in response to her collection of essays, called Tropes Versus Women, which examines why women are often represented as powerless, sexualised and enfeebled characters in games.
Though a vocal, and often abusive, minority of games enthusiasts condemn her work, Sarkeesian's analysis is widely praised by some of the most prominent games industry figures, from Tim Schafer to Naughty Dog creative director Neil Druckman.
#215
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Good to see this finally getting mainstream backlash.
There was a similar campaign against the community manager of Mighty No 9 about a year ago. They (obviously the same people) were trying to get her fired from the minute her hiring was announced.
I would say that organized campaigns aimed specifically at destroying people's careers cross a line into something else.
There was a similar campaign against the community manager of Mighty No 9 about a year ago. They (obviously the same people) were trying to get her fired from the minute her hiring was announced.
I would say that organized campaigns aimed specifically at destroying people's careers cross a line into something else.
Last edited by dugan; 08-28-14 at 02:55 PM.
#216
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
That's pretty fucked up.
It also sucks that she's had to disable comments on her videos. It'd be great to have some serious discussion about what she gets right, what seems to be reaching, and what might be wrong in her videos. But all she'd get is a bunch of assholes calling her names and threatening her. Which helps no one.
It also sucks that she's had to disable comments on her videos. It'd be great to have some serious discussion about what she gets right, what seems to be reaching, and what might be wrong in her videos. But all she'd get is a bunch of assholes calling her names and threatening her. Which helps no one.
#217
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Those have been disabled from the start. And while I understand why, it fans the flames somewhat because instead of feedback and conversation, to some it looks like "Here's the way things should be, nothing you say in response is relevant".
Again, I understand why she had to turn off comments. Comments most places should be turned off. Hell, Fox News turns them off on their website a lot of times, which is telling.
Again, I understand why she had to turn off comments. Comments most places should be turned off. Hell, Fox News turns them off on their website a lot of times, which is telling.
#218
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
It's good they're turned off. Yahoo! needs to.
#219
Banned by request
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Except Sarkeesian isn't saying "this is how things should be and that's that" in her videos. She's saying this is the way things ARE.
#220
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Thought this was a particularly good one. Lots of good points and it becomes sensory overload eventually. We all know that violence against women is prevalent in M-rated open-world games, maybe she's right that it doesn't really need to be.
#221
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
#222
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
Yeah, there's plenty of places to discuss the videos online. Shutting down Youtube comments wasn't so much an effort to suppress discussion, but an acknowledgement that Youtube comments are toxic. I think she had Youtube comments enabled on earlier videos of hers before the video games series, and she ended up having to disable them due to how toxic they were.
I haven't watched the new video yet, but for part 1, one thing I noticed was that while, yes, you can kill both male and female NPCs in some games without realistic repercussions, there was a difference in behavior shown when NPCs of different genders were attacked. For examples, the male pimps are shown fighting back, shooting guns, etc, while the female NPCs are often shown cowering, pleading, or slowly running away.
I haven't watched the new video yet, but for part 1, one thing I noticed was that while, yes, you can kill both male and female NPCs in some games without realistic repercussions, there was a difference in behavior shown when NPCs of different genders were attacked. For examples, the male pimps are shown fighting back, shooting guns, etc, while the female NPCs are often shown cowering, pleading, or slowly running away.
#223
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
#224
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
There's no way to ask this without sounding defensive and snarky, but I seriously do wonder:
If there were a game inspired by Kill Bill, parts of Sin City or let's say Daenerys Targaryen's storyline in Game of Thrones, where a sexy female protagonist went on a revenge quest and killed lots of men (and almost exclusively men) - perhaps objectifying men in the process, would that be considered a good thing for the videogaming industry in turning certain tropes on their heads? I don't know.
If there were a game inspired by Kill Bill, parts of Sin City or let's say Daenerys Targaryen's storyline in Game of Thrones, where a sexy female protagonist went on a revenge quest and killed lots of men (and almost exclusively men) - perhaps objectifying men in the process, would that be considered a good thing for the videogaming industry in turning certain tropes on their heads? I don't know.
#225
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Kickstarter: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games
If there were a game inspired by Kill Bill, parts of Sin City or let's say Daenerys Targaryen's storyline in Game of Thrones, where a sexy female protagonist went on a revenge quest and killed lots of men (and almost exclusively men) - perhaps objectifying men in the process, would that be considered a good thing for the videogaming industry in turning certain tropes on their heads? I don't know.
And personally, I'd want a game based on Daenerys' storyline to be an overhead-view turn-based strategy game where I can take over cities on an overworld map, send my followers to attack or engage in diplomacy, etc. With a pet simulator element for the dragons and maybe with "relationship points" for certain NPCs. Something like Civilization.
For Sin City, I'd want a point-and-click adventure along the lines of Rise of the Dragon.
Last edited by dugan; 08-28-14 at 04:35 PM.