Decker

Maybe to an extent, but Tomb Raider 2013 was really about surviving at all costs against ruthless thugs. I still think a pure revenge motivation would have a different feel to it.

Sounds good. Needs a slavemaster crucifixion mini-game as well. And Kinect-enabled "Dracarys" commands.

fujishig

How would that turn tropes on their heads? We don't have games (that I know of) where a male protagonist is taking revenge and killing exclusively women.

Decker

No they kill other men who victimize women. But close enough to a reversal of the trope.

Or if you like, how about a videogame adaptation of Cruising where all the victims of violence and assault are sexualized gay males. Though that would open a HUGE can of worms in the media.

dugan

@decker So a game where you're the martial-arts practising, attack dog cultivating, motorcycle riding, gun enthusiast bear-hunting half of a lesbian couple where, one day, YOUR WIFE IS BRUTALLY MURDERED AND YOU HAVE TO RESCUE YOUR DAUGHTER? Basically a cross between Taken and Expendables, uh, 2?

Draven

I can't remember the last time I was in any online game without hearing a) racism, b) homophobia or c) someone blasting their radio directly into their headset. Why waste any energy at all trying to do something about the problem? Those people are obviously assholes and aren't interested in becoming less of an asshole. Plus, I'll be honest - I have younger kids and what blasts out of a typical Xbox Live game is not something I want them to hear.

I have no problems having fun games with random people online without verbal communication. I'm pretty good at games like Battlefield and COD, and usually there are others on my team who are too. We don't need to talk to know when we should be doing X or Y. It's obvious. Sure, we might not be able to pull off something intricate but it's usually pretty clear where you should be focusing your energies.

RocShemp

Eliza Dushku was in a game like that. It was called Wet. Apparently it sucked.

Rex Power Colt-Robot Man

I think I would take this lady more seriously if she would offer some ideas for solving the issues that she presents. (Unless she already has in previous videos...they are so far spaced apart I forget whats was in the last one) One would hope that would be something that she covers in a future video. I's one thing to say "Yo this is fucked up!" and "Yo this is fucked up! And here's how we can start to fix it."

Rex Power Colt-Robot Man

I played it and enjoyed it for what it was. The setting and story weren't that games problem. It was the underlying gameplay mechanics that brought that sucker to a halt.

Dan

I don't think she needs to offer a solution. What she's doing is saying, "Here it is. again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. and again. Try something different, okay?"
I don't have a problem with that. It's up to the creators to avoid these things, not her.

dugan

Well, that's a solution right there.

Most of her videos also give shout-outs to games that either do thing right, or at least do them better.

Decker

Her point that even if it's historically accurate, doesn't mean it's essential to the game is a pretty good one.

dugan

I'd actually quibble about her WE ACCEPT HISTORICAL SETTINGS THAT ARE NOWHERE ACCURATE AND HAVE DRAGONS ADDED TO THEM premise. (If you've seen the video, this point and the one quoted above are presented together).

My answer to that?

"This game lets you relive authentic battles from Japanese history. Now here's a giant enemy crab."

Rex Power Colt-Robot Man

I dont think of that as a solution though. And Im not asking her to fix everything wrong. But giving some thoughts other than "here are repeated tropes that need to be addressed. Good day!" isn't helping. I dunno. Something like encouraging young females to get into computer science, game design ect would be more beneficial. Then if that caught on the next generation would start to fix the industry from the inside.

Supermallet

Yes, it does help. It's one thing to say, "Women are treated badly in gaming" and another thing to comb through decades of games to show the patterns and tropes that have women treated badly. I was just re-watching part 2 of Damsels in Distress, and she mentions that there are a ton of games where women are killed, but then their soul is captured by the villain and you have to still save them, so you get the easy emotional content of killing the girl and then saving her too. And I thought, "No way is there that many games that use that, it's so specific", and then she rattled off a bunch of games that did exactly that.

On top of it, she explains WHY these tropes are harmful to the industry, not just to women, which gives you a better understanding of why they're problematic outside of just noticing that they are trends. And yes, she does point to games that are doing better when she has examples of them, so it's unfair to say she's just standing there and listing a trope and then every game that uses that trope. But even if she did, that would still be a pretty powerful indictment.

Decker

The problem is, of course, that tropes are easy and convenient. They make "logical" sense. And as we well know, the writing in video games, especially in open-world games is largely elementary and simplistic. A game like The Last of Us might have some nuance, but Far Cry 3 or Assassin's Creed 2? Not so much.

Since we'll never get a game where we see bad guys abuse children (thank God), we are going to continue to see this trope going forward. Sure there could be some more male-on-male violence portrayed, but I think this Neanderthal concept of Chivalry comes into play -- "Of course I should hunt down and kill this bandit- he hit a lady" That plays better than chasing after a guy for assaulting a policeman. I don't think there's an easy fix for all of it, but certainly I hope at least the most egregious offenders start to tone things down a bit after these videos -- some of that stuff was really offensive, especially seeing it all back-to-back.

Supermallet

Tropes are easy, but the only reason the something like the damsel in distress trope makes "logical sense" is because we live in a society that continually reinforces that men have a lot of agency, and women have very limited agency. Could you imagine a Mario game where you play as Princess Peach, you get abducted by Bowser, and you have to escape using your own wits and abilities? It's not a crazy idea, but it's never been done in the history of Mario games.

RocShemp

That sounds like Sarkeesian's idea for that princess game she discussed a few videos back. I for one would love it if a developer like Bioware, Naughty Dog, or CD Projekt Red would make that game a reality.

Supermallet

As would I. I believe I mentioned many pages back that there was a Princess Peach game, and the game mechanics revolved around her moods, i.e. making her sad would have one effect on the game, making her happy would have another, etc. A game like that would NEVER be made about a man in our society.

Decker

Of course, a game like that would require Nintendo to come up with a new gameplay idea and we all know that hasn't happened for them since Metroid Prime.

Supermallet

The gameplay could be classic Mario. The mechanics wouldn't have to change at all.

Decker

Oh sure. I get what you're saying and it's an easy fix for those games (frankly, I don't know why they don't do that - or at least make her a Luigi-like sidekick; the same old Mario/Zelda story is VERY, VERY old by now). There have been a few games with a female protagonist that have really done a nice job of battling the helpless damsel trope -- Heavenly Sword is a good example, but like many others with a female protagonist, it sold poorly.

I was making my comments about the new video she put out regarding violence towards women in the background. I agree it's too much and way over the top and can desensitize people to violence towards women. Still, if you're going to make a game set in a dark, brutal world, it's hard not to include that and still have it seem even remotely realistic since it's sadly so much a part of the dark side of human nature. It seems to me to avoid that trope you really only have two choices : 1) you can do what Tomb Raider 2013 did and just essentially eliminate female NPCs (yes, Lara had a couple female comrades with her, but every baddie on the island and every corpse was either male or unidentifiable by gender), or 2) go full alt-reality with a Kill Bill/ Sin City vibe. Showing female-on -male violence and objectifying male but not female characters would certainly even things out, but it's so far from our reality that I think it would massively distract the player from the game at large.
Sad, but I think that's the way things are.

Supermallet

Except there are very, very few games that present even an approximately realistic world (unless you're talking about sports or racing games, where you'd be hard pressed to find any of these tropes). LA Noire is one of the few I can think of that's meant to take place in the real world without any major embellishments. GTA is satire, and incredibly over the top. CoD is a heightened reality (and also not a major perpetrator of violence against women AFAIK), most of the games she mentions are NOT realistic depictions of the world, but rather fantasy versions of the world with brutalized women thrown in to make it more gritty.

But I haven't watched all of the videos yet, so maybe there are some more realistic titles I'm forgetting about.

RocShemp

That Peach game was covered in one of Sarkeesian's earlier videos as well. It's basically one big PMS joke.

However, men in a lot of games also tend to be one-note rage machines. Just look at those Gears of War games or the macho "rah rah" bullcrap writing of the Call of Duty games. Stereotypes abound to both genders.

The only point of contention I have with Sarkeesian and other feminists is the assumption that stereotypes are exclusively negative for females when males are often expected (and fail to live up to) the ridiculous expectations placed on them as well. Hell, just look at the prevailing humor in many of the threads of this forum (mainly Otter). It's a bunch of guys trying to play up macho, billionaire, He-Man bullshit stereotypes that don't apply to them in the real world.

Both genders are pretty much ill represented in different ways. Guys: "This is what you should be, girly man!" Girls: "This is all you're good for, bitch!"

Neither is actually positive. However, I am glad to see at least one side (women) calling game developers on their bullshit. It'd help if the other side (men) helped out and perhaps brought about their own grievances. That said, I know plenty of women that scoff at all this because they view it as mere fantasy. One lady friend of mine often says "the more righteous the character is, the bigger his pecs or the bigger her tits." And she's not wrong. But then neither are people like Sarkeesian who say that the market is simply flooded with these tropes when there is a relatively untapped market that wants something more/different.

spainlinx0

I guess I'm a hypocrite because I see exactly her point, and I was actually pretty shocked at some of the violent scenes in those games that I never played, and even some that I had. In Red Dead Redemption I never saw that guy stab the girl because I automatically shot that guy every time he went to tie her up. Meanwhile, I always like seeing a strip club in a game.

Jay G.

I don't think this is true at all. Feminists, by definition, are focused on female issues and problems with inequality, etc, but I don't think any of them think that exclusively females are subject to negative stereotypes.

It's a bit like saying you don't like the charities and organizations that focus on treating & curing cancer because they assume that cancer is the only disease that affects people.

That said, I thought that Sarkeesian did point out that a lot of stereotypes in games were feeding into a particular male stereotype, which is damaging to males as much as females. At least, that's the impression I got, if it wasn't ever stated explicitly.

This I can agree with. There's really nothing stopping someone else making a "Tropes vs. Men in Video Games" series, aside from the desire to do so.