joltaddict

********, we know you just crushed your mouse.

zig

The fact of the matter is none of us know how much money any of the 3 are making, we can't even make a reasonable guess. The only thing we can say with certainty is "sony is making a shitload." There's no reason to believe Nintendo will go 3rd party. Their first-party games are the enticement to buy Nintendo hardware. If they could sell their hardware without making games and still be successful, I think they would. I think some of you have Nintendo's business plan backwards.

I don't see why Nintendo would own any of Perfect Dark. I don't know that they had any more involvement with that game than any of Rare's games.

Wow, not 4 games!! nobody can compete with 4 games!! Not to mention Doom 3 is a PC only game as far as any of us know.

Trigger

Seriously - the way you people react to my comments, it seems like you guys picture me as some bitter angry freak who likes to pick fights and throw things. I'm not that way. See the smiley face?

joltaddict

joltaddict

Yep thats it. No mo FPS.
My point is Goldeneye was buried in praise partially because the competion was so weak on the N64. I didnt even mention the Clancy Recon game or Halo Next or the tons of other PS2, Xbox and PC shooters on the horizon. It wouldnt surprise me in the least if PD0 was a Cube exclusive even if Rare did go third party.

But you were just busting my stones right?

zig

Yeah I was just busting your stones as you say :P I kind of agree. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I hadn't really even heard anything about PD until I came to video game forums with a bunch of rabid fans of the game. I don't remember hearing that it was a big seller or anything.. So who knows.. maybe we won't see PD0 on any system, ever.

ScandalUMD

Well, we can't be sure whether Nintendo is making money off the GC or not at this point. They couldn't lose much on it while recording the profits they did, even with the strong GBA.

Nintendo has the benefit of a higher profile by having their own console. A game like Pikmin would probably suffer the same fate as Ico on PS2. Operating as a first party instead of a third party, Nintendo can schedule release lineups to sell more games. So, while the PS2 has a larger userbase, the sale of Nintendo games wouldn't necessarily increase proportionally if they were on the PS2.

Rather, the people who really want Nintendo games will probably buy a Gamecube, and Nintendo can then make money on controllers and memory cards.

Also, they make money on third party games. They get a nice piece of the sports lineup, and they stand to make plenty on games like Soul Calibur, Sonic, and Resident Evil. Third party software support for Nintendo has improved a great deal with the Gamecube, so if they didn't drop out after N64, they probably won't after Gamecube. The cube seems to have a lot more going for it than the N64 did.

And since Nintendo owns the factories that manufacture their proprietary discs, they make that much more money. Their proprietary media also makes their games harder to pirate. DVD burners may make PS2 and Xbox piracy prominent before 2005, but Gamecube's little discs will do a good job of protecting Nintendo.

ScandalUMD

I think you're probably right about that, actually. PD is going to get much more attention on the Gamecube than on XBox, where there are a dozen other quality shooter games.

Kellehair

That's crazy talk.

Aghama

To me it sounds like more of an indication that Rare shouldn't announce games that they've barely started working on.

Trigger

Next time you talk to Miss Cleo could you ask her what my lucky numbers are? Nobody knows if they're recording profits off the Gamecube because they haven't released that information. Also - they sell more Gameboy stuff than anything else, so to say that if they were recording profits GBA has nothing to do with it is just silly talk.

This may or may not be true regarding how they are perceived publicly... it is a valid argument. However, Nintendo makes plenty of money off their hugely successful GBA.

Their third party support is dwindling which is the point that most people are trying to make about their console going Sega. It seems to me that with a few exceptions, most 3rd parties are just throwing them a bone. Plus - [speculation]they had to pay through the nose to get those exclusives (Resident Evil etc...)[/speculation] since they have done everything they can to piss off every 3rd party developer out there. That said - the Cube does have alot going for it over the N64 - then again, the Dreamcast had alot more going for it than any console Sega had put out since the Genesis. Before you say anything though, I recognize that Sega was in financial trouble where Nintendo isn't. I haven't been saying Nintendo definitely will go 3rd party, I've been saying simply that they should and the only thing I'm speculating on with this is that they're probably keeping an eye on Sega to see how well it works out for them.

This is one of the main reasons they've pissed off so many 3rd parties - since the days of the original NES, they have done this. They also charge a fee to the developers to have the discs or cartriges produced. They didn't allow developers to manufacture their own cartridges so they could take in more money. This was something they could get away with back when they were the top selling console maker, but now it's a different story and developers realize that they don't have to put up with it eventually. I've always seen this tactic of theirs as hitleresque and it's part of the reason why I've never bought any of their products... only a minor part of the reason, but still a part. That said - I agree that this generates revenue for them, but that's not taking into account how it hurts them on the back end when developers split because of it. As for piracy, I don't see how it eats into profits really... either someone is going to buy the game or they aren't. The few that are technically savvy enough to create a bootleg aren't enough to make a huge dent and also it's likely that they wouldn't have bought the game in the first place... Typically, these are people who rent the game and then copy it or else they borrow from their friends to copy. Either way - since they rented it or borrowed it, there's no reason why they would end up buying it. It's just one argument and I know there are two sides to it... I can see it both ways, but I just wanted to bring up this side of it so that you could see both sides as well.

Trigger

I thought Goldeneye was highly overrated... I was underwhelmed. I was a FPS veteran though when I first saw it, so the comparison to PC games wasn't fair.

ScandalUMD

They had record profits. The most money they'd ever made in a year, in spite of launching new hardware. GBA had a lot to do about it, but if the GC were losing money out the nose, they wouldn't have made so much money. Plus, at GBA launch, they were eating losses on that hardware too.

The question is, can Nintendo make more money off of Gamecube than off of third party development? We don't know.

I don't think the exclusivity deals for any game have ever been more than the licensing fee. And the third party support is very strong. Certainly not as strong in the exclusives department as MS or Sony, but that is because Nintendo is more interested in developing and promoting its 1st party exclusives.

The Dreamcast was a great console, but it was too late. Sega's franchises had eroded, and gamers didn't trust them to put out a console. Ultimately, their best games were too niche-y, and gamers' reservations were self-fulfilling. Plus, rampant piracy cost Sega a lot.

Nintendo has a much more powerful lineup of multimillion selling franchises. And they seem to be buttressing this bycultivating second party contracts and providing help and assistance from the home office. This strategy produced Wave Race, and is producing Star Fox, Metroid, and a new game from a team made up of developers from Earthbound and Dragon Quest. What you get is a bunch of diverse and quality games, all with the Miyamoto touch.


Third parties were upset about the high price of cartridges. They like gamecube discs much better, and the support proves this fact. I think cartridges are probably a big part of the reason why PS1 beat N64 so badly. I think the gamecube optical discs will really help increase Nintendo's support.

And console game piracy is widespread in foreign markets. I'm inclined to agree that bootlegging isn't hurting movies, music, or computer software much, but the Asian black market probably helped kill the crippled Dreamcast. You can buy pirated games on the streets for fractions of the cost of a licensed copy, and these countries offer no legal recourse for rights holders. Piracy is also why the Playstation lost money in its last two years.

Trigger

speculations and opinions.

darkside

What else can there be in threads like this.

jeffdsmith

If I remember correctly, I have read from several sources, Nintendo and 3rd party, that the cost to publish GC games is equal to the competition.

On another note, Nintendo launched 2 systems nearly worlwide in one fiscal year and managed to make their largest profit ever. The question as to whether Nintendo will go thrid party should be viewed in this light: Obviously Nintendo is having no problem making money doing what they do. Nintendo's goal's may be different then other manufactors. No doubt they are in it for profit, but perhaps they are in it for other reasons, and as long as they are making a profit the can choose to pursue those other goals on their terms.

...

To stay on topic: I think Rare will ethier go 3rd party shortly after releasing SFA (1-3 months), Or not at all. I think Rare saw the Xbox as a great opportunity to expand and gain freedom. Being tied to Nintendo has had great benifits and great restrictions. Regardless of "benifits" human nature is to seek freedom above and foremost. Sure you can control people by giving them what they want ($$$, etc.), but the hunger for freedom to do what they want is always there. Rare is a great software company made of great artists, to limit them to one system, and force them to taylor the games to certain demographic is like telling Picasso he can only use 10 colors on his next painting. Sure he will potentially still make a great painting, but he will always want to do more and experiment beyond the bounds set by others. And that's what Rare wants right now IMO. They want to try new things, things that Nintendo may be slow to allow them to try.


Right now I think Rare and Nintendo are working on their relationship. Had the Xbox been a run away success across the world I have little doubt that Rare would have already said something. Because it hasn't I think they are sitting tight, watching, waiting, and seeing how far Nintendo will bend for them.

Groucho

I was also a veteran of PC FPS when Goldeneye came out, and I was impressed. Everything up to that point was just a steady stream of baddies that you had to mow down. Goldeneye took this tired genre and gave it new life by adding other elements.

Kellehair

I get a new PC every every 2 years so I can play the hottest and newest FPS with all the settinmgs turned up. I was, and still am, impressed with Goldeneye. Slowdown and low polygon counts just don't matter to me when I'm having that much. I have never played an FPS that was that much fun. Even Perfect Dark, which was better in almost every way, wasn't as much fun as Golden Eye.

joeblow69

And how did Xbox land all of their exclusives? Oh yeah, developers like hats made out of money...

Tamrok

Interesting thoughts. I would tend to agree.



I think the main reason why this hasn't already been announced is for contractual reasons. Rare's second party contract with Nintendo (which is unrelated to the fact that Nintendo owns a percentage of Rare) is due to expire soon. This has been reported by several news outlets. Due to the way the industry works, the contract was likely based on Rare delivering a set amount of exclusive games to Nintendo (rather than a set time period, i.e. a five year contract). So, Star Fox Adventures is likely the final game which fufills Rare's contractual obligations to Nintendo. For whatever reason, Nintendo has apparently made the decision not to sign Rare to an extension (perhaps because Rare demanded too much money or freedom). Thus, once Star Fox Adventures ships, Rare is free to pursue it's own goals, whatever those may be. In the meantime, Rare is still contractually bound to Nintendo and thus, there cannot and will not be any official announcements until after Rare fulfills it's obligations to Nintendo.

Tamrok

Don't forget that developers also like working on powerful platforms which are easy to develop for... of course the money hats are cool, too!

Kellehair

By all accounts the Cube is powerful and easy to develop for.

Tamrok

If they just had the money hats, they'd have the magic tri-fecta!

Shawn

Shawn

Is it easier to develop for than the Xbox? If anyone knows, please respond. Thanks in advance!