Traxan

Not even close. Like anyone believed Picard would be killed?

Voyager is so much better with the 9 ships destroying that planet and two cubes, with the third one booking it away dragging Voyager. BoBW doesn't compare.

tanman

You're right BoBW doesn't compare. It's leagues better than Voyager's episode that I can't even remember the name of.

PatD

I guess you weren't around during the Summer of 1990. Patrick Stewart's contract was up at that time. There was no internet to spoil things. This was the genre television equivalent of "Who Shot J.R.?" (and it blows away "Who Shot J.R.?")

B5Erik

I never made it through Voyager, and I was a DIE HARD Star Trek fan.

I loved TOS, TNG, and DS9. DS9 was actually my favorite Trek show. And then Voyager started out with a lot of potential... that was wasted as the show wandered aimlessly through it's first 4 or 5 seasons, with tons of crap scripts that just killed the show.

The one thing that totally turned me off was the amount of time they spent in Kazon space. At maximum warp they would have been out of Kazon territory in a week. A month at most of the Kazon territory was four times as large as the Federation. But the writers and producers seemed to like the Kazon as the bad guys, so they kept the Voyager in Kazon space far too long. Personally, I thought the Kazon were lame, and never understood why they did that.

From there the show just kind of meandered through new areas, with no clear cut plan from the producers as to what was coming up, or where they wanted to go with the show. It all seems like it was made up on the spot as they went along, rather than following some kind of overall outline. Kind of like the Star Wars sequels. Just make it up as you go along. And we know how that turned out.

So Voyager, for me, was just a ton of unfulfilled potential with a bunch of crap episodes. It was like Season 7 of TNG - but with Very Good episodes where TNG had GREAT episodes to go along with the crap that season. And Voyager had just as much crap as Season 7 of TNG, if not more.

dstrauss

Yes, absolutely we thought it might happen. There wasn't a big online SF community back then but those of us who were online knew that Stewart's contract was up for renewal and there were plenty of rumors he wanted to go off and do movies and they were going to make Riker captain.

dstrauss

That's what the writers wanted to do, but Berman shot them down. The whole Year of Hell was supposed to be an entire season's thread.

wearetheborg

I have only watched the first episode of DS9 (Emissary, two parter). That was a bad episode.
Does it get better?

wearetheborg

S02E19: Lifesigns
Liked this episode quite a bit. How we (and others) view ourselves based on our physical bodies and appearances.
The Doctor matter of factly telling Bellona he wanted to drill into her skull and take out her brain matter
And similarly telling the woman he likes her

At first it bothered me that the neural pattern could only be in one entity at one time, but then I rationalized it by thinking maybe it's some sort of Heisenberg thing, a non-destructive copy is not possible.

PatD

I would argue that "Lifesigns" is the greatest romance episode on all of Trek. It's a beautiful tale.

Count Dooku

Not saying there aren't some good episodes in the first 3 seasons, but if you want to watch the show when it hits its stride, you can watch these episodes: Jem Hadar, The Search 1/2, Improbable Cause, The Die is Cast, The Adversary.
Use the web to acquaint yourself with Season 1-3 overall.
Then start watching Season 4 when Worf joins the show.

wearetheborg

It is.
The woman not wanting to go back to her physical body, and then the Doctor convincing her by telling her it would give them two more weeks together...

wearetheborg

I'll watch it in entirety. But after I finish my run on Voyager.

story

I hear and acknowledge some of the issues many here have with Voyager, but I have a real soft spot for it. They played back-to-back episodes on late night local TV every night the year I graduated college and spent every day for five months trying to land a job. I essentially watched the entire series that summer and it was a bit of comfort food during a tough time in my young adulthood. In fact, it just started over a few days before I moved out of state when I finally landed a job, so that period of late May to early October was a perfect spot to watch the whole thing for me!

And for that, no matter anything that could've been better, is why it will always be that much more elevated for me. I do think seasons of life matter for when we take in various art. This is my example of flawed art having Vaseline on the lens for the balm it was in that time of my life.

PatD

Seasons 1-3 of DS9 really get an unfair rap. I mean season 1 has "Duet" and "In the Hands of the Prophets".

DS9 comes into its own in season 2. Episodes like "Necessary Evil", "The Maquis" parts 1 and 2, "The Wire", "Crossover" and "The Jem'hadar" lay down the groundwork of the series.

Indeed Deep Space Nine truly begins with this scene:


and this scene cements the series as the iconoclast of the Gene Roddenberry vision:


Season 3 ROCKS. There are so many classic episodes including "The House of Quark", "Past Tense" parts 1 and 2, "Through the Looking Glass", "Explorers" and many more make this one of the seasons of all of Trek.

Seasons 1 through 3 deserve more respect. Just because they have more intimate stories instead of massive fleet battles in space doesn't make them any less worthwhile.

Count Dooku

Why would you be inquiring if the show gets better (worthwhile to watch) if it was your intention to watch it anyways?

wearetheborg

It became my intention after you post that it gets better

Count Dooku

I disagree. I did grant that there were good episodes in Seasons 1-3, but Seasons 4-7 is when it gets great. And if someone is reluctant to watch DS9, then I recommend skipping the slog through 70 episodes of them figuring out the characters and concerns about Bajorian politics. Just like I would tell someone to skip almost the entire first season if TNG.

PatD

I have to disagree with your disagreement. The first three seasons don't have as many gimmicks and space battles as the later seasons and it really is a disservice to future watchers to skip over nearly half the series.

No one should skip over this:


or


Seasons 1-3 have a ton of excellent episodes and many great character moments that lay the foundation for seasons 4-7. (And frankly seasons 2 and 3 smoke season 7 in terms of quality, IMHO.)

Count Dooku

Thanks that makes me feel like my thinking about my reply was worth the energy. Interestingly (or not) I am watching a good DS9 episode on H&I right now.

Traxan

This one moreso.

Traxan

Shame, that would have been ballsy. I always hated how Riker got promoted to Captain, Picard returned, and despite much of the fleet wiped out and with it their captains, Riker was demoted back to second in command. The show lost me after that.

tanman

I HATED the Kazon too. Such terrible "villains" Almost like the prototype klingons on TOS. Just one dimensional with terrible aesthetics (who even came up with that stupid hair?) and bland ship design. I think they must have invested way too much time or money in designing them. Either that or it was someones baby project. I was so happy to see them and Seska finally go. Unlike others here, I loved it when the Borg showed up. It breathed new life into the show and gave them focus. Yeah I know 7 was introduced as sex appeal and you can argue that she took over the show. But there's a reason why she became the focus and I personally think it's sexist to just focus on her looks as I think she brought much more than that to the show.

But either way give Voyager another try. Yeah it was overshadowed by TNG and DS9 but removed from that glut of 90's Star Trek gives it some room to breathe and exist as it's own show.

wearetheborg

The Borg make everything better

Count Dooku

DS9 aired its last episode over 20 years ago and a person with the moniker wearetheborg hasn't been motivated to watch it beyond the pilot. I really didn't think (and still don't believe) that "Sit your ass down and get buckled in for 150 hours of DS9" is the best way to sell the show. That option has always been available and apparently was not very attractive.

Again, not denying there is good stuff in the early seasons, but if you contend that the first half of DS9 is the best half of the series, then you and I are watching two different shows.

PatD

I'm not saying that exactly. Season 1 is like a middling season of TNG on a space station with a lot of forgettable episodes (with the exception of a few gems). Seasons 2 and 3 are tip-fucking-top. Seasons 4 and 5 are AMAZING! Season 6 is nearly excellent, but there's some droop in quality with the loss of Robert Hewitt Wolfe, one of the show's creative forces. Season 7 is grossly overrated.

I think the show works well as a whole DS9 had the most consistent quality of any Trek series, and even though I think TOS and TNG are the greatest of all Treks, DS9 still leaves me gobsmacked by its sheer quality. (Even if it takes a wrecking ball to Gene Roddenberry's vision and pretty much destroyed the franchise--but that's another thread)