Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

The Mad King killed Ned's father and brother; his son the Prince kidnapped his sister and she was killed when he had her.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Was this before the uprising?

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Correction, Ned's sister died, was not necessarily killed, while with the prince.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Yes. Brandon was on his way to marry Catelyn when he heard Rhaegar had Lyanna and he headed to King's Landing. After King Aerys kills Brandon and Rickard he ordered Jon Arryn to send him Ned and Robert so he could execute them, but Jon Arryn declared war instead.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Yes, we know very little of Lyanna's story at this point. King Robert believed that she was kidnapped and raped by Rheagar (the Mad King's eldest son, and the guy often referred to as "the last dragon").

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

This is what's so frustrating about talking about the show without talking about the books. They've dropped a lot of this historical info into the show, but it's like one line in an hour-long episode. And I can't always remember exactly what they did and didn't say. Even the names are only said once or twice.

Back to the simple explanation - the major houses of Lannister, Stark and Baratheon ousted the Targaryens when they went crazy and started killing nobles. Dany is the last Targaryen and now wants her throne back.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Well, sort of.

I really hope we get some more Lyanna backstory in the show. It's not nearly as simplistic as all that.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

I'd say it was more the Houses of Arryn, Stark, and Baratheon. The Lannisters didn't get involved until it was clear the Targaryens were going to lose.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Fair enough.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Yes but doesn't the King's heir become King and not his brother?

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

If a king does not have any children, his eldest brother is his heir.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Seriously. Has no one seen The Lion King.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

rotfl

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

It does lots of things. You've got Tywin (the Lion) cutting up the Stag (Robert of Baratheon).
Just like you had a dire wolf (Stark) killed by the antlers of a stag (Baratheon) earlier in the story.
And that same episode, a Dire wolf bastard (Ghost) comes bearing a Hand (Robert).

The metaphors are not exact, but they're fascinating to look for.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Why would the Hand be Robert?

Has there been any outcry that they used a real deer in that scene?

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Its not his kid.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Ned's plan was unbelievably bad because it was based on two assumptions 1) that Cersei would go quietly into the night after he hold her he knew that Joffrey wasn't Robert's true heir and 2) trusting Littlefinger to get the City Watch on his side after Littlefinger specifically told him not to trust him.

Ned could have maintained the status quo by agreeing to Lord Renly's plan to separate the Lannisters and prevent them from seizing power. Ned knows that the Lannisters do not have a legitimate claim to the throne so either Lord Stannis or Lord Renly would be the rightful king.

Throw Cersei into the dungeons and have the Lannister kids seized and put in a nice comfortable room with lots of guards outside. Jaime and Lord Tywin aren't going to do jack shit if their family have daggers to their throats.

After the Lannisters are contained Ned, could have simply read King Robert’s last wishes to the court & city and then tell everyone that Joffrey is not Robert's legitimate heir. Lord Renly and Lord Stannis can decide who is best suited to be the king while Robert retires back to Winterfell to spend the rest of this life freezing his ass off.

Instead of following a plan that a two-year old could have thought of, Ned charges ahead like a bull in a china shop, gets himself arrested, his men killed and puts his daughters in danger.

Cersei = 1
Ned = 0

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

There might be a civil war between who has the possesion of the iron throne (Renly) and who is the rightful heir (Stannis(.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Fair enough, but then seize Lord Renly and throw his ass in the dungeon next to Cersei until Lord Stannis can arrive at King's Landing to rightly assume the throne. If Ned really believed in the true line of succession, then Lord Renly is the rightful king upon Robert's death. However, Lord Renly was right when he said that Ned supported Robert's ascension to the throne after the Mad King was killed even though Viserys was the rightful king under the line of succession.

I thank God that Sean Bean is playing Ned because he is at least making me feel sympathy for Ned, instead of outright contempt.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Stannis is the rightful heir. He's just not as popular as Renly and Renly wants it.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

I agree, but that is why I said in my first post that Ned simply should have agreed to Lord Renly's plan on the condition that they call Lord Stannis into King's Landing and let the brothers sort out who wanted to be king.

At a minimum, it puts a Baratheon back on the throne rather than turn over the crown to Joffrey who has no claim because his father is Jaime.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

The problem with that is that Ned probably sees Renly as not much better than Joffrey. Spoiled, effete and lacking what it takes to be a good king. Once Renly got the crown there is no way in hell hed give it to Stannis without a fight.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

So after Ned throws all the Lannisters and Renly in the dungeon, how exactly is he supposed to keep them there when all the knights, guards, and various other people loyal to the Lannisters and/or Renly start brandishing their weapons?

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Lord Renly could only round up 100 swords when he made his offer to Ned so I can't imagine that he has an entire retinue of supporters willing put their asses on the line for him.

As for the Lannisters, Robert hasn't died yet at that point so the City Watch is presumably loyal to the King and thus Ned could have turned to them without having to go through Littlefinger. Even if they weren't loyal to Robert, how hard would it have been to simply hire a ton of either call in his own bannermen to provide extra guards or to send a raven the Vale telling them that he plans to seize those responsible for Jon Arryn's death? I think even little Robin would have come to King's Landing for that.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Ned naively believes that the people will ultimately be loyal to the crown, not to the individual nobles. That's why he thinks a piece of paper will protect him. Cersei just tore it up. Now what the fuck is he going to do? The idea that Cersei could dismiss Robert's decree with "we have a new king now" is completely alien to him.

This is a man who in the first episode executed a man as a punishment because he's the lord. The king has his own executioner to do that for him. King's Landing is no place for someone like Ned.