Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Exactly...it's a contrast between the two approaches, and the subtle way is better. :D

The scene was well done, if a bit on the nose.

Next week: Joffrey rides a lion that runs around eating lizards and puppies.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

I always explain those things to myself by thinking "if that didn't happen, we wouldn't have a story to follow". So the reason it happens is the reason we're following these particular characters.

Gets them out of a lot of coincidences, I agree. But there's a reason we don't know anything about the pedestrians in the background of the action movie but the lead managed to find an awesome sports car on the street at that moment to chase the bad guy. Because if he hadn't, the bad guy got away and the story is over.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Plus how many would be assassins are throughout the free cities and have not had a chance to encounter Dany? From the time the order was given to the wine merchant has been several months.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

In the book the letter Mormont gets isn't a pardon, it is from Illyrio saying that Robert is offering land and title to whoever kills Dany.

I don't think the wine seller knew who she was at first, but one her maidens tell him he saw his chance to claim the reward.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

woops! I did not think about that, i deleted my post

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

As sung by Peter, Paul, & Mary.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

So casting Paulie as a Lannister will keep the show safe?

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

I apologize but can someone summarize the various scenarios presented in this episode after Robert's death? I'm pretty confused.

Robert dies. Joffrey is next in line for the throne. Ned refuses to accept that knowing Joffrey is no a blood heir of Robert.

Then what? Ned thinks he will assume the leadership until it can be sorted out?

What did Littlefinger advise him? I totally missed that angle.

I'm guessing from reading the thread that Littlefinger wanted him to be the Hand for Joffrey? Also, that Renly is the rightful heir being Robert's brother. Does Renly know Joffrey isn't Robert's kid?

Then, when Ned chooses to assume control himself, Littlefinger fucks him over. Why?

Again, I apologize. I don't know how you keep this all straight. :lol:

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Ned's original plan was to out Cersei and Jaime to Robert, but that got all fucked up when Robert died.

Next in line for the throne is actually Stannis (Renly's older brother, discussed but not seen).

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Ned wanted to put Stannis Baratheon (A Warrior) as the next King. Because he would be the rightful next heir.

Option A (Renly option): Renly stages a coup de tat, with Ned's help becomes King

Option B (Littlefinger option): Make Peace with the Lannisters, release Tyrion, and just be the lord protector, then when the time is right, expose Joffrey (I'm assuming once you have secured enough power). Ned: That would be treason Littlefinger: Only if we lose. Loved that line

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

So Ned chose Option A? Why wasn't Stannis an option?

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Ned discovers the truth of Joffery's parentage. He tells Cersei to leave w/ her children to save them, as Robert will kill them all when he learns the truth.

Robert dies.

Renley tries to talk Ned into making him King, but he has an older brother that would be the true heir to Robert, Stannis. Renley is loved and admired by most, while his older brother wins neither lover nor loyalty. He tells Ned he did not care about the line of succession when Robert usurped the throne. Ned does not accept.

Littlefinger tries to get him to make peace with the Lannisters and rule as Lord Protector until Joffery is of age. If Joffery gets out of hand they will expose his true heritage and place Renley on the throne, and they will remain the real power of the throne. Ned does not accept.

Ned intends to arrest Cersei and her brood and hold the throne as Lord Protector, until Stannis arrives and takes it.

Littlefinger double crosses him and sells him out to Cersei.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Ned didn't choose option A or B. He decided to go with his original plan (call out the lannisters, and put Stannis on the throne).

Stannis wasn't a option based on what Renly said, something like. Warriors don't make good kings or something. The people don't love him or something.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

That is RIGHT. Ned honestly is a hypocrit.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Robert had Ned write out the note saying that he would serve as steward of the crown until Joffery came of age. Robert knew Joffery wasn't ready and that Cersei would immediately stick him on the throne. Ned changed the wording to say "rightful heir" instead...which is Stannis (Renly's older brother). Stannis is not nearly as popular as Renly.

Yes - though he knows the truth so he knows that Robert's letter doesn't mean he'll be the steward until Joffery takes the throne, but until Stannis can arrive.

Correct. To be Joffery's hand and live to fight another day.

No, Stannis is.

Ned is the only one who knows about Joffery (that we know of). I can't remember if the series has indicated otherwise.

Littlefinger decided to back the winning horse in this scenario. Ned asked him to help him oust Cersei and Joffery. Littlefinger (rightly) assumed that Cersei was in the better position. Lannister gold goes a long way and King's Landing is no place for someone as obsessed with honor as Ned is.

Reading the books definitely helps, but just keep in mind that at this point it's basically "Lannister vs. Stark" in every situation.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

How? It seems like Ned just wanted to follow the existing rules of succession no matter what without lying, cheating, whatever.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Because he supported Robert Usurping the Targareyn blood lines, Renly called him out on it.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Oh right. Gotcha!

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Wasn't the Mad King from the bastard Targareyn blood line and Robert related to the true born?

edit: Nevermind, I guess he need to kill Dany and her brother to have the claim theoretically go to him.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Not exactly.

The Targaryans were in power for years, mostly because of their dragons. The Mad King had gone completely crazy and was killing nobles. The three powerful houses led a revolt against him and put Robert on the throne. But Dany and Viserys were taken away before they could be killed too, and everyone is worried that some people would support a Targaryan returning to take back the throne.

The crux is that Ned participated in the overthrow of the Mad King but wouldn't do the same for Joffery.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Why does Renley assume he is a viable choice for the throne if he doesn't know Joffrey is a fraud? Or does he want to be king until Joffrey is of age? Everyone except Ned should be accepting that Joffrey is the rightful heir.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Renly wants to be king. There are three Baratheon brothers, Robert, Stannis, and Renly. Robert is now dead, and Stannis is older than Renly, so actually Stannis has a stronger claim to the throne than Renly does. But Renly is ambitious, and wants to be king.

In the books, Renly is much more cocky and confident than he is here. His portrayal on the show is too wishy-washy, and the casting choice for the character is rather weak, IMO.

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

I don't remember, but did Renly suggest capturing the Lannisters?

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

Major change between the show and the book:

Re: Game of Thrones -- "You Win Or You Die" -- 5/29/11
 

I thought the reason that Ned and Robert hated the Mad King to begin with becasue he killed Ned's sister?

Obviously Ned doesn't want Jeoffrey as King. But he thought he could keep him off the throne and keep the peace by following the proper line of succession. This would have avoided shedding blood and getting into the mess of usurping the throne. Not to mention gain the forces and backing of Stannis who is a powerful warrior. His plan wasn't that bad he just trusted the wrong people.