Please don't group NCIS in with those other shows.

Very true. Firefly was already something great when it ended. Serenity was a nice conclusion, but if the show had had years to play out what happened in 90 minutes, it would have been fantastic.

I thought Eliza actually brought the Dollhouse idea to Josh. Perhaps I am mistaken.

I was disappointed in Dr. Horrible. Mostly boring with some funny stuff mixed in. I am a fan of Whedon, but that and Dollhouse have me ready to give up on him.

Passion was season 2 which was what people compared it to. I consider it fair.

SMG wasn't that great of an actress? Perhaps she sucks in other roles, but she was fucking fantastic as Buffy. That was the perfect character for her. The Body alone should have gotten her an award. And even if you consider her mediocre, you have to agree that Eliza is ten levels below even that.

Yes, you can see the glimmer of greatness, but it repeatedly gets smashed down by stupid side stuff. I enjoy monster of the week stuff, but here it often fails miserably. The last episode with her as a bimbo coed was a pathetic time-filler with nothing intriguing at all about it.

I have been more than lenient with Dollhouse because I am such a huge fan of Whedon's previous work, but I can't keep defending it without noticing the huge flaws that are starting to become apparent. Eliza sucks. Plain and simple. I absolutely love the other characters on the show, but she drags the show down, and because of her forced inclusion the show suffers.

I have no problem with Dollhouse getting canned after this season but as least Josh knows and can end it properly

Let's hope Josh ends it on a good note.

Im a huge Whedon fan, but Dollhouse is by far my least favorite work of his. It is really held back by the premise and Eliza. I still enjoy it for what it is though, and Amy Acker brings it as usual.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Eliza really drags this show down a level, and I wouldn't be surprised if this series' fans list her as one of the main drawbacks.

Yet it won an Emmy and has made about 1000% its budget back. Not bad considering that its free to watch...

I enjoy Joss Whedon but I've loaned my DVD of Dr. Horrible to plenty of non-Whedonites and they all enjoy it. Maybe it's just humorless people that don't like it?

And I stand by my statement. Episode for episode, Dollhouse is about on par with Buffy or Angel, in quality and narrative. And for the record I like Eliza Dushku. She was my favorite character on Buffy next to Willow and I watch Dollhouse for her and Tahmoh Penikett. I think she does a fine job in the role, at least as good as SMG or Charisma Carpenter.

And perhaps this explains why I could never get into Buffy or Angel.

I don't think Eliza Dushku is the Problem. The writing of Echo is the problem. I liked Eliza on "Tru Calling", but can't stand her on "Dollhouse". She is the worst thing about the show.

If by that you mean the problem is they are writing a role that requires a very good/great actress to pull it off when all they have is Dushku, then I agree. I don't think Eliza is horrible, but she's average at best. The writers should recognize what isn't working and work around it.

Eliza isnt great, but the stories, writing, layout have all been shit; thats easy to see. The writers (or Josh) just havent put any heart or drive into this damn series. Its pathetic. They touched on it with the finale, but its basically dead now.

I like Dollhouse, although I was skeptical after the first few episodes. And I like Ms. Dushku, who is adequate for the role.

The show is not great, the lead is not great, and the plots are not great...but then, how many current shows airing ARE great? At least the premise is a bit different. For the record, I also liked My Own Worst Enemy & Crusoe, which both got canned last season. Neither were great, but they offered a reprieve from the standard fare that passes for "drama" these days.

Maybe Dollhouse would have succeeded if they made Echo an older man, gave him a female eye-candy sidekick, and surrounded them with a team (including quirky characters) who investigated a new mystery every week.

Or perhaps they could have devoted half the show to Echo capturing a criminal & the rest of the show depicting the prosecution of the criminal. Echo could have played both the role of cop & prosecuter.

Or perhaps Echo & partner could have been involved in a weekly race or could have been stranded on an island. Maybe she could have been involved in a weekly competition to lose weight or demonstrate her singing or dancing skills or marry a bachelor.

Stupid Joss...don't he know what the viewing public wants?

Well I think it's a little disingenuous to think the fans of Joss are clamoring for your sarcastic premises. It's not like Buffy, Angel, or Firefly were your standard TV fare. And it is because those shows were great, we all want Dollhouse to be great.

I just can't believe someone said this show is on par with Buffy or Angel episode for episode. Do you not remember the episode with the horses? Give me swimming steroid fish any day over that.

I don't think Ms. Dushku is "adequate" for the role. If she were at least adequate, I wouldn't really complain. The role is above her, obviously. I will say that they do give her some pretty shitty stories. I wonder how much of that has to do with forcing those stories in. Why is it that when the other characters are interacting, my complete focus is on the screen. When Ballard, Boyd, Whiskey, Adelle, or even Topher are the main focus the episodes work so much better, and the reason is because it feels like those stories are the ones Joss wants to tell, and the Echo ones are the filler he has to tell.

I grok your mouthmusic, Spain, but I guess I don't expect everything Joss does to live up to the heights of his earlier work.

My point was simply that the show offers a diversion from the other formula shows & their clones. If I found the show to be unwatchable, I'd say so. In DVDTalk Review terms, I'd give the show a "rent it"...not highly recommended or buy it, but not "skip it", either. It's certainly not essential and doesn't compare favorably to many better shows in the past, but I don't see too many current network shows that I would rate as 'essential'.

It's like Friday Night Lights...I watch it because it's different even though I sometimes find it infuriating when it relies on predictable conventions. Still, I prefer it to many other throwaway shows that are paint-by-number. I had some similar reservations about Battlestar Galactica, but the pros outweighed the cons.

Could Dollhouse be better? Undoubtedly. Should Dollhouse be better? Without question. Do those assessments make it unwatchable? IMHO, no way. I'll still watch Heroes even when the plots wander, just as I watched Prison Break when it got bogged down in Season 4, or The Tudors when almost two seasons were devoted to Anne Boleyn. I miss the variety of the 60's when every conceivable type of show was airing.

Will I miss Dollhouse when it's canceled? Not in a big way. However, I don't see much better on the horizon, judging by the quality of the new shows this season.

What about the one "Some Assembly Required" where Willow's computer fell in love with her? Was it THAT much better than that particular Dollhouse episode?

Thanks for your sage input to this thread. I guess you must have endless amounts of time on your hands if you can wade through all the Dollhouse threads and contribute nothing to the topic except a threadcrap. Seriously, thanks.

WHAT!?!?! That implant allowed that priceless sequence with Victor (Enver Gjokaj) in the dance club!

Too bad she is

Spot on.

Yes, that must be it.

I didn't care for Dr. Horrible because it did nothing new. If you're a fan of his previous work you saw the ending coming within the first 10 minutes. The songs were mostly forgettable, too- I don't remember a single one of them.

Don't listen to him. Both BtVS and Angel are miles ahead of Dollhouse. The first season of BtVS is pretty awful, and there were some real clunkers in each subsequent season, as well, but in terms of execution and style it was heads and shoulders above Dollhouse.

The first few episodes of Buffy's second season were pretty bad too ("Inca Mummy Girl", anyone?) so I'm willing to give Dollhouse time to grow, but Fox won't be.

And the TV market is much different than it was in 1997- shows don't have time to suck and then slowly get better anymore. And Buffy only made it because it was on a small network.

At least I wasn't bored during "Some Assembly Required".

You bring up a valid point. I recently looked at some shows that aired on Fox and other networks in the late 80s/early 90s, and in those days even if a show sucked beyond all belief, it seemed like it would get at least a full season. Hell, I remember Fox used to be the joke network with shows that had premises so lame that in retrospect I'm surprised anyone had the audacity to even air them (Herman's Head got two seasons for Pete's sake!).
Where were these axe happy execs when we needed them?

I really liked Neil Patrick Harris in this. I also found the first song of the 2nd part to be pretty memorable. Though I haven't seen many musicals, so it could easily be very ho-hum and I wouldn't know it.

At least none of this sinks to the lows of Bad Eggs or Double Meat Palace! Of course it doesn't have any of the same highs either. I'd say the end of the S1 for Dollhouse was on par with something like a mid-season 2-parter from Buffy or Angel.

What about "Beer Bad"?