DVD Josh

Here's your first problem. We have NO IDEA when Penny received that call. It was XMAS time, but who knows if it was the 24th. And we certainly have no idea it was 2004.

It appears from what we know that Sun conceived sometime in October 2004, so the baby, as you said, should be born about July / August 2005.

What?!??! This is a wild assumption. It also makes a several step logical leap. You are assuming you know what the date is she gave birth. You have no idea. It could very well be July / August 2005. Where on earth are you getting 11 months from?


I said by my original answer: No.

Snowmaker

So did Zoe Bell recently get a DUI in Hawaii? She sure didn't have much of a part.


No, I actually thought that too.

DVD Josh

Neither did Fisher. I have to assume that at some point, we'll get a freighter crew flashback for some of the minor characters.

But clearly, what happened to Danielle's crew is happening to the freighter crew.

The REAL question then is why none of this happened to any of the LOSTIES.

pinata242

Why do you insist on making things more difficult than they are? We do know she received the call on 12/24/2004. Go back to "The Constant" thread where you and I had this same conversation. "I've been looking for you for 3 years [since you went missing on my father's race in 2001, therefore it is 2004]." I added that bit of implied subtext there for the purpose of this discussion. Regardless, the point is island time isn't that far off of real-world time.
Doesn't that prove my point exactly? "sometime in October 2004" is after the concrete 9/22/2004 date of death of her husband - therefore it follows that he cannot be the father of Sun's baby to any observer going off of just those facts.
You're right here, I miscalculated. I was adding the 8 weeks she'd already occurred to the normal gestation - confused myself by thinking it was 8 weeks after the crash that conception occurred. Thanks for pointing it out so convincingly

Do you happen to know when the Ultrasound Juliet gave Sun took place? Obviously it would then minus 8 weeks that the conception took place and from that point that we would add 9 months to. Whatever difference we determine from 9/22/2004 to conception is how long Sun's pregnancy would have to be for Jin to be the father, per the real world's understanding. If that's significantly over 9 months, the point remains.

Which isn't a very convincing answer...

I think you're getting confused because I'm not saying that Jin isn't the biological father. What I'm saying is that anyone that believes in the O6 story (i.e. the entire world) must believe that Jin is not the father - he cannot be.

Matthew Ackerly

The creators have said there was going to be another freighter crew flashback, but its been cut now due to the strike and the short season.

suziq999

There's been plenty of wreckage shown this season alone. Jack and Kate stood in front of the remains of the tail section when Faraday showed up.

beatccr

i thought it was the remains of the front section, from when they were with charlie and the captain got taken away by smoky orwhatever

BDLOU

We don't know the birth date so how can you say the square world won't believe he is the father.

suziq999

Either way, it was half a plane.

jarofclay73

This is what I got from last night's episode:

Michael IS Kevin Johnson. I thought the captain could have been Kevin Johnson. And obviously, Michael is some sort of janitor. I wonder why he's flying under the radar on the freighter?

Juliet is quite nasty. Forget about patient-client confidentiality. Juliet will use ANY secret to get what she wants. However, I have a feeling that Juliet's actions will ultimately save Sun and her baby. Obviously, we can't say the same about Jin.

This is the first time that Jin really hasn't gone off in a mad tirade about something troubling him. He went fishing with Bernard instead. But, as always, once our characters become good people and comfortable in their own skins, they die. I think Sawyer will always have issues so he'll probably make it to the end. I wonder if Sayid's mistake of "thinking with his heart instead of his gun" will lead to Jin's death? The cell phone Jin broke was a dead giveaway that it was a flashback.

It's hard to say whether I enjoyed last night's episode or not. I just watched it to see who the spy was and who would die. Once I found out, I was satisfied.

You may not like it, and perhaps I feel the same way, but it really looks like Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6. Although that sounds weird, I really can't think of a GOOD reason to exclude him in that elite status. He's no less of a survivor than Jack, Kate, Sun, Hurley or Sayid. I'm not saying that I like it. I'm just saying that's probably what it is. I would say Jin wouldn't be part of the Oceanic 6 because I'm thinking the group is going with the story that he died in the crash. In reality, he probably died getting Sun off of the island. But that's why his tombstone death date reads 9/22/2004.

pinata242

So you're saying maybe she's giving birth in, let's say, May of 2005 and she gestated longer on the island than the real world elapsed due to some temporal disturbance? And it could easily have been August of 2004 that she got knocked up as far as the real world is concerned?

I'm going off the facts the show has presented:

1) Plane crash & DoD for Jin = 9/22/2004

2) Time seems to be near in-synch based on what I've seen. Sure there's some anomalies like the 31-minute delay in the payload delivery and the helicopter flight time vs perceived time Desmond & Sayid were out-of-contact with Jack. But none of that is enough to suppose that the timelines are wildly different or that a day here isn't equal to a day there. We don't know so you're assumptions that they are so far off that the pregnancy can be explained another way are just as baseless as mine keeping things simple.

3) Conception occurred on the island - after Jin was "dead".

Matthew Ackerly

I don't think we will be POSITIVE of who the last person of the six is until the Season Finale of this season and we see who exactly gets off the Island.

That's just my opinion though.

DVD Josh

I think you're getting confused because I'm not saying that Jin isn't the biological father. What I'm saying is that anyone that believes in the O6 story (i.e. the entire world) must believe that Jin is not the father - he cannot be.[/QUOTE]

DVD Josh

Actually, from the events of last night, it looks like the baby was born EARLY. So it would look like the baby is Jin's. Not to mention that baby was decidedly Korean, and according to Hurley LOOKED JUST LIKE JIN.

pinata242

OF COURSE IT LOOKED JUST LIKE JIN! IT IS JIN'S BABY!

We know that. You and I, the viewer. We know the story of the island.

There are people in the Lost Universe's "real world" that believe the cover-up of Oceanic Air Flight 815. People that believe that Jin, Sun's INFERTILE husband, died in that same crash.

Sun gets rescued and she's pregnant - some weeks/months pregnant (we don't know how much). She has the baby that must have a father that makes sense in the context of the Lost Universe's "real world".

There's another lie there and we don't know what it is. For right now, the simplest answer has to be that one of the other O6 is said to be Sun's baby daddy.

BDLOU

As long as she doesn't admit she conceived on the island then no one is going to question it. I mean you are talking about possibly a couple day difference. She could say she must have gotten pregnant the day before they left when in reality she got pregnant sometime that next week on the island. They aren't going to know the exact date of conception. Not to mention that babies are born earlier and later than expected.

pinata242

Ok, can anyone put in the timeline of the show the date of conception for me? When did Juliet take Sun to the Staff?

Tell me how near to 9/22/2004 the conception is said to have taken place and then we can determine whether or not I'm talking about possibly a couple day difference or not.

DthRdrX

Juliet only stated that Ben found a way to communicate with her. Juliet "assumed" that Ben sent Goodwin's exwife. The viewers know that perhaps it wasn't Ben controlling the vision. Juliet would not understand this because she probably thought it was the real woman that appeared to her. It's not known if Juliet even knows the Others are at the Temple.

If Ben was able to communicate with the Others at the Temple why would he double time everything by sending a message to Juliet? Wouldn't he just send a few others right to the Tempest to do what he wants?

Rendle

The D.O.C. episode occurred on December 17, 2004.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Timelineecember_2004

pinata242

So, for simplicity's sake, we'll take 12/17 - 8 weeks = 10/22. That's 1 month (30 days) after the crash.

Is that small enough to overlook?

Rendle

With the way time is different on the island, it could be before or after the 9 month period. Remember in "Not in Portland" when Richard Alpert showed Juliet the pictures of the womb? Juliet thought the lady was in her 60's when she was way off. I'm not sure this will be a factor at all.

BDLOU

Actually, per http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/D.O.C. :

"Juliet gives Sun an ultrasound, telling her that they crashed on the island 90 days ago and the baby was conceived 53 days ago."

So that's 37 days difference. It's iffy wether someone would question that. People do give birth way early. I guess the baby weight would indicate that but I don't think it would really be questioned.

pinata242

But in this case, for Jin to be the father in the real world's eyes, the baby would have be born way late, right? Because the lie would have to say that (infertile) Jin and Sun conceived the baby on or before 9/22/2004. Of course this assumes a normal gestation period...

...ah, I see what you're saying. You're saying that maybe Sun is naturally giving birth early - early enough that the 37 days can be explained that way. Saying that it is the normal due date based on when Jin was still alive.

That's possible, but a little convoluted and coincidental.

DVD Josh

No. (seriously)

The simplest answer is that the father is Jin.

You are making some wild assumptions - that anyone besides Jin and Sun know that Jin is sterile and that she didn't conceive immediately prior to 9/22/2004. Besides, sterile people are sometimes able to have children, it's not completely unheard of.

You are making this much more complicated. Most reasonable people would assume it's Jin and there's nothing conclusive that would show otherwise.

pinata242

^ I'm with you there. It's all possible. And the only thing I'm basing this off now is my assumption that the timelines are near in-synch. Meaning Sun's mid-late October conception, if carried to full term, would specifically preclude Jin from being the father unless she was way overdue.

That's all I know.