Count Dooku

I don't care about the reason for her addition.

Voyager became a much better show after 7 joined the crew.
She and The Doctor became the most interesting characters on the show, and the episodes that focused on them were the best ones.

DS9 was a series that was out of favor with many core Trek viewers, and they added Worf to the cast because he was a familiar face that would draw the attention of their target audience.

The reason for Worf's addition to DS9 doesn't change the fact that the series improved after his addition, and the two big reasons for Jeri Ryan's casting don't mitigate that VOY was the better for it.

And though you didn't make any positive comments about ENT, Nick Martin, I think it's worth mentioning that ENT is just as reprehensible as VOY when it comes to leotards and eye candy.

Jadzia

And nothing made me reach for my remote faser than that Enterprise song. What were they thinking?

Chew

This was a tough decision. I think the finale of Enterprise is still pretty fresh in my mind, so I'll go with Voyager.

runner001

so which are you choosing? a poke in your eye or a kick in your gut/crotch?

i picked voyager for me. it was more in line with what TREK should be.

lukewarmwater

Neither of them were as good as the originals. But I'd say voyager is slightly better because of the holo-graphic doctor and tom paris and his flash gordon type adventures. And voyager was the ones who introduced the borg queen which was later used in first contact.

Enterprise didn't seem remotely like star trek.

Chew

Strike that, reverse it. Borg Queen was first introduced in First Contact (1996). She was later watered down in Voyager.

Ayre

Voyager killed Star Trek

Enterprise just affirmed its death.

Fok

Voyager for me

Cancer Man

I wouldn't be blunt like that, but you are partially correct. I don't think Voyager or Enterprise really "killed" the Trek franchise per se, but it was more to do with Star Trek slowly losing it's mainstream popularity since the mid 90s after the stunning success of TNG.

I guess the creative process for the Trek franchise started to stagnate as well, plus there was a market saturation with so many Trek spin offs going at the same time.

And say what you like about the much scapegoated Rick Berman, he was not the main person who ran the Trek franchise into ground although he still has alot to answer for. When Voyager had finished it's run, even Rick Berman knew that the Star Trek franchise was in dire straights so he begged the excutives at Paramount to give the Star Trek franchise a rest for a few years before they launched a new Trek series and get their creative process back together. But no, the Paramount vultures were fixated on profit, profit, profit.

The Paramount bosses demanded Rick Berman to make a new Trek show as soon as possible to milk more money out of Star Trek, and I guess that's one of the reasons the Star Trek franchise was burned out. I'm suprised that Enterprise was as successful as it was and how it still ended up a fairly solid Trek series considering the bad circumstances surrounding it.

Nick Martin

"Enterprise" was something I ignored completely- I may have watched most of its first season, but I don't even remember any of it.

As for 'Voyager", well I have the opposite point of view here- Seven Of Nine came on and I didn't like the show anymore, and while she herself was sort of interesting, all that focus on her made me hate all things Borg, and turned the Doctor into a lovesick, opera-singing shell of his former self...he was so much more interesting as a cold jerk than a disgustingly sweet softy.

Filmmaker

I'm just stunned (no pun intended) at the amount of people saying VOYAGER had a better cast. Garrett Wang is the single most painful actor (and I use the word lightly) we've had to suffer with in TREK's history (and TREK's chief virtue has always been the likeability of its characters), and Robert Beltran isn't far behind. In ENTERPRISE's favor, Connor Trinneer is the best actor of any TREK since Rene Auberjonois (well, to be fair, Robert Picardo did rock). He was a delight, and I'm crushed I'll never be able to see him perform as Tucker ever again (to say nothing of the despicable fate his character suffered at the hands of Berman/Braga). None of the other ENTERPRISE actors were poor actors; if any complaints can be hurled at them, it's that some of their characters were underwritten, but VOYAGER actually had bad actors.

Nick Martin

One aspect of the show that caused me to ignore it completely.

riley_dude

This is one of the things that Voyager and Enterprise had going against it but the powers that be thought it was a good thing. Putting a babe in a tight suit to get viewers in. Trek is not about this and they sold their audience short. Trekkers tune in to see good storytelling not chicks in silver mylar.
I'll agree with this. I stayed with Voyager throughout the 7 seasons even though it was pretty bad at times. I did this because I was a dedicated Trek fan. When Enterprise did the same things, well, fool me once...

Cancer Man

Garret Wang and Robert Beltran were certainly weak links, although Beltran started off OK but then began to "phone in" his performances in later seasons.
But Voyager still had a strong cast what with Kate Mulgrew, Robert Picardo, Tim Russ, Robert Duncan McNeill. Roxann Dawson, Jeri Ryan and even Ethan Phillips (although Neelix was an annoying pr*ck).

I thought the Enterprise cast was solid and underrated as well, and though they were not a bad cast per se, they were let down by the character writing, even in the much better later seasons.

And Nick Martin, although the Borg were dumbed down in later seasons, I still felt that Season Four and Five were the best seasons of Voyager. Sure Seasons One and Two were alot stronger on hindsight, but Season Three was a very weak season which was why the writers made the big changes they did in the Fourth Season.

And the EMH Doctor did change, at least Robert Picardo was still as entertaining as ever and his Doctor character actually went through real character development. The common complaint about Voyager was that it lacked character development.

Ayre

During an episode of Voyager that involved finding your "Spirit Guide", I actually thought to myself that Star Trek was dead. I didn't watch the show again till the finale.

This is really DS9's fault ;-P DS9 was a departure from the previous two shows. It involved a fixed base and a nearby world. I think if it had been more successful, the franchise would have been allowed more room to be creative. Voyager and Enterprise are unimaginative and poorly executed rehashing of the original theme. I am not that fond of TnG either, but it had its moments. DS9 is my second favorite ST (ToS is first).

Voyager may not have killed Star Trek for everyone, but it sure did for me.

Cancer Man

I do not know why this is still a issue that is bitterly argued to this day; sure Seven was a cynical ratings ploy, but despite this she proved to be a successful character and good addition to Voyager that did not harm the show in any significant way.

riley_dude

She was a good character but they made it the 7 of 9 show. No wonder Kate Mulgrew got pissed off. As someone had mentioned before, if they were going to make the character credible and not make it a ratings ploy, they should have put her in a starfleet uniform or some other duds just like everyone else.

Nick Martin

There was a time-travel episode that featured Seven in a standard uniform (because the 29th century Starfleet needed her to infiltrate Voyager prior to her actual joining of the crew...a sort of "Future's End" follow-up) and I thought, wow...she doesn't stick out as the 'hot one' anymore, but as a credible member of the crew, just like when Troi finally started wearing one in later seasons of TNG. I don't watch TV shows to look at pretty people, I watch them to enjoy good characters and stories. Obviously the opposite rings true for the 'average' TV viewer, but that's how it is.

The Doctor may have undergone a great character arc, but I will always miss the good old days of him being a prick. He was cool when he didn't care.

I miss DS9....the only Trek for me.

das Monkey

I disagree. The forced relationship between her and Chakotay was lazy writing and just plain stupid. It's no wonder Beltran hated his job.

das

Nick Martin

As for Robert Beltran being 'weak', I once read an interview with Bryan Fuller, former "Voyager" writer (who created "Dead Like Me" and co-created "Wonderfalls") and he mentioned that Beltran specifically, often mocked the scripts because like most of the cast, he didn't care about them and didn't believe in what his character's dialogue was about. I take that to mean it was just a paycheck for him and at least some of the others.

There are shows where actors believe in what they are doing, and care about the stories, dialogue, and making it as good as it can be...this wasn't the case.

The same apparently cannot be said about Jeri Ryan, who evidently loved working with the cast. I don't know if she was one of the actors who didn't care about the scripts, but she did care about being there, if what I have read/seen in interviews rings true.

Chew

Beltran openly mocked the scripts? Nobody has heard of Beltran since Voyager in any major way. Now I understand a big reason why.

riley_dude

The Doctor should have been with Seven in the end not Chakotay. Where the hell did they come up with that plotline???
As for Beltran, he was right about the writing. How can someone fault him for speaking out much the same way the actress who played T'pol did later on.

lotsofdvds

Yes, thank you for pointing out that dreadful episode. For me, I gave Voyager three seasons on DVD, and then I stopped watching. I'd just come off watching all the DS9 sets and was just blown away by the best Trek series ever, and then Voyager was a complete 180. It made me want to hate Trek. So after three sets I'd had enough and bailed.

I came back to Trek for Enterprise because the premise intrigued me and I'm a big Scott Bakula fan. I watched the first season religiously until they aired like 8 reruns in a row and then never returned until the DVDs came out. I have two discs left to go in Season Two now and it is INFINITELY more watchable than Voyager.

Voyager had a strong episode here and there ("Eye of the Needle" was a five star first season effort), but too many times the stories just outright infuriated me with their stupidity. Too many Voyager eps were "Hey look at this pretty space thing... lets fly in for a closer look... OMG the pretty thing is going to tear Voyager apart!" and things going haywire in the holodeck.

Enterprise, with the exception of "A Night in Sickbay" has yet to infuriate me.

I am amazed though at the number of people who can't see past the freakin' THEME SONG.

Nick Martin

Here's the interview link:

http://suicidegirls.com/words/Bryan+Fuller/

and here is the relevant text:

das Monkey

Beltran's a riot at conventions. I've always liked the guy. He never shies away from telling people that Voyager was stupid, and not in a bitter way, but in a specific analysis of all the dumb shit they did.

One of my favorite Beltran moments was at the 35th Anniversary mega-event. There was a HUGE line of people from all over the world waiting for his autograph, and after about 20 minutes, he answered his cell phone, stood up and said, "I'm sorry folks. I have to get back to Hollywood for an audition. Maybe I'll see you next year." Then he left. He sold it for about 30 seconds as the ire boiled within the crowd, and then he ran back in and said, "I'm just kidding. I'll sign as much as you want for as long as you want." Some people didn't think it was funny, but I was doubled over laughing at how angry people got in those 30 seconds.

das