Little bit of bias there, eh, slayer?

Doc MacGyver speaks the truth!!!

Great comments man! :beer: :beer:

I never said he would've made the show. I'm saying *IF* he did. If he was chosen to lead the team and accepted. It's all hypothetical.

Joss is a master story teller. It's that simple. He can do more than heroic women and male anti-heroes. Anything involving super heroes he can do. If a series has great characters he would be great for just about anything regardless of genre.

Joss also writes for Astonishing X-Men and does a great job there too. He can do super hero stuff very well. If he created Smallville all of these little annoying flaws would be gone. There woud be great character development and great story/characters arcs that go somewhere as opposed to the rinse, repeat and reset style of Smallville. There's no way Joss would allow all of the things that has gone on on Smallville. Story/Character arcs would actually go somewhere and it would actually feel as if time were passing as seasons progressed.

Smallville writers are too afraid to take chances or perhaps they're under order not to. :) Joss would make them take chances if he had to rework their scripts himself.

I'm not saying this is a series that Joss would even want to do, but if he did and had his heart into the series it would be fantastic. It would be on another level than it is now (btw, I'm not saying it's bad or anything). It's entertaining right now, but it has so much more potential. It has a lot of flaws, but I've just learned to accept and live with Smallville's flaws.

Yes we do. I don't think the writers could be any more obvious in implying that was the case.

I enjoyed the episode and thought Doc was spot on with his analysis about the episode. It did a great job of continuing to push Lex as a villain, which follows up his actions in last season's finale and the season premiere with the words he has exchanged with both Lana and Chloe.

I think i'm still one of the few that doesn't care for Chloe. She should have died two seasons ago :(

I'm not sure how anyone would get the impression that Lana is a slut or town whore.

The villains were a bit boring, and I pretty much dislike it everytime I see the sheriff turn up.

I can understand those who are afraid over the possibility of a "reset." I really hope nothing like that occurs any time soon. I don't think the writers are as bad as some feel, but I do think they can do an awfully poor job as far as pacing and working with a main story arc over the course of a year.

It was actually Zan and Jana. :-)

I liked this ep. But then again, I'm a Smallville fan. :-)

Thanks for the warm responses, fellas. Sadly, no matter what we say or how many good points we make, some people only see fotw's and buffy clones.

Is the series flawed? yes. Was last season a stinker? yes, for the most part. But then again, we got some nice gems - "run" comes to mind. And some of the storylines are, well, retarded (witchy lana and kung fu fights in china par example). My point, and the point of those that agree with me is that this trend (for now) seems to be ending. We've had real, lasting development over the course of just these two episodes that was leaps and bounds over last year's entire season. All I'm saying is if they keep this going, don't hit the reset button and give us some serialized, character building (and deconstructing) stories that mean something to the overall plot and don't fall back into kryptonite villains for the sake of kryptonite villains, then I for one will be very psyched to see where it goes.


Doc

Vote for Zod in 2008!!!

http://www.zod2008.com/

Question: Anything bad that Whedon puts out, do you think it's someone else's fault and not his? Or do you believe that he's never made anything bad?

Whedon is a cult icon ... nothing more. He has not demonstrated any talent as a master storyteller because he has little mass appeal. He does not cross markets and for the most part feeds his core audience. Trekkies needed a new hero ;-P

lol. A trick question. Anything that Joss had creative control over has not been bad. Period.

I know the two films that you're referring to (Buffy & Alien Resurrection). Both are films that Joss had zero creative control over. Both are projects with directors that had their own vision. That's a fact. His vision was not the director's. In Ressurrection his script was reworked to the point that it didn't resemble Joss' original script anymore. He actually she some tears over this knowing that his name was on the script and the director was having his way with it. It was Joss' worst experience to date in film, according to him. He left the set early out of disgust. The Buffy film was a similar situation, although not as terrible of an experience for him (he still didn't like what the director made though). A director directing with her own vision and one of the lead actors rewriting his lines. Joss left the set.

Give Joss creative control and he'll rarely do any wrong. When Whedon writes something ONLY he or someone he greatly trusts should direct it. Preferrably the former. Period.

LOL. What on earth does mass appeal have to do with anything? By your logic Britney Spears has demonstrated tons of singing talent because she has mass appeal. rotfl

Explain how he hasn't displayed talent as a master story teller, because millions would disagree. Many critics and fans would disagree. Go into detail. I want to read this. :)

BTW, Star Trek? C'mon, you're grasping for straws. I am NO Trek fan (infact, I really dislike Star Trek). Personally, I don't know of any Buffy/Angel fans who are Trek fans (I'm sure there are SOME, but not nearly as many as you seem to think. Infact, I'd say the average Buffy/Angel fan probably dislikes Star Trek, based on my experiences anyway.).

I've turned 4 HATERS of Buffy into HUGE fans of Buffy and Angel. They are now huge Whedon fans too. If he wasn't as great as I and many others thought he was I have no doubt my four attempts to turn blind haters into fans would've failed, but they didn't. I'm 4/4 so far. None of them before were hardcore fans of ANY tv show at all. None of them cared or kept track of writers/directors before until I introduced them to Joss Whedon. Before Whedon/Buffy/Angel they too were more about the "mass appeal" until I showed them a buried treasure. Joss is not only fan acclaimed, he's critically acclaimed as well. Let's not forget that.

The fact is most people are blind to Whedon and BuffyAngel even before watching it. The four people I know who said they hated Buffy had no reason to be Whedon fans in the first place. They didn't know him or that he was a master story teller (they eventually found out though). They already made up their mind about his shows (as I once did), but when I got them to watch from beginning to end suddenly they're big fans of him and his shows.

Most people are sheep anyway. They will flock to the stuff with the big flashy ads and trailers, not the great stuff that doesn't seem like it could be great. Not that I have a problem with that, because I do it too occassionally, but most people are not going to flock to give something like Buffy/Angel a chance. I don't care how great the shows are or how great Whedon is, it's just not going to happen. I didn't. I avoided Buffy for most of its entire run. I had no idea of this Whedon guy's reputation. It wasn't until I was forced to watch it (thankfully) that I saw the greatness of the show and Joss Whedon as a story teller. I then became a big fan. To my surprise many others saw the same thing as I did. I didn't think I could get others hooked (because most people are closed minded), but I did and that is a testement to Joss' masterful story telling. If I can take 4 blind haters and turn them into huge fans that says something about Joss Whedon. It wasn't easy getting them to even give his shows a chance, but when they did they didn't regret it one bit.

Without me getting a few people to give his stuff a chance that's 4 fans that never would've even existed (and they have gotten others into Joss Whedon shows as well). Would I have had to force them to go see the Matrix or something big in theaters with "mass appeal" like I did with Buffy? Um, no. Are they still bigger fans of that stuff with "mass appeal" now that they have seen all of Buffy/Angel? Um, absolutely not.

Why? Because "mass appeal" means absolutely nothing.

I have no problem with Whedon being a cult icon. The reason why he doesn't appeal to the masses is because he doesn't try to and his stuff is a bit above "mass appeal". For that reason though I almost never became a fan, but thankfully someone steered me in that direction and I steered some other people as well.

"Most people are sheep anyway."

Apparently, you are an elitest. You honestly think Whedon fans are enlightened. Wake up .. they are trendy click shows.

"Why? Because "mass appeal" means absolutely nothing.'

It is the difference between being a master storyteller and a cult icon.

He has only struck it with his core audience. It means everything. Here, let me explain it in terms that a Whedon fan might understand. It is the difference between Superman and the Silver Surfer. (BTW I enjoy both of those)

"Buffy/Angel fans who are Trek fans"

It was a metaphor. I didn't mean buffy fans were Trek fans. I mean that Whedon has taken the position that Rodenberry held. It is not a bad place to be. Just not exactly what I would consider masterful. It is personal opinion and that is where mass appeal comes into play. It is likely (by show ratings) that most people would not believe Whedon to be a master storyteller. He also hasn't been given awards, accolades or global praise by his peers. Such as Stephen King or J.K. Rowling.

It isn't that difficult to understand. *shrug*

"I've turned 4 HATERS of Buffy into HUGE fans of Buffy and Angel."

Only 5,999,999,995 more to go.

No need to take it personally ;-P This isnt a whedon thread after all.

Sorry for the threadjack.

I would suggest that he is not a master story teller because it is clear that he only has a passion for a couple of genres. You can dance on the head of a pin and tell me that he'd be terrific at a Smallville, Law & Order, or House, but I don't buy it in the least because Joss himself has not established it in a video medium. Joss knows what he is good at, and he keeps going back to that well. In this regard, he is a lot like Wes Anderson. Both of them need to take a little bit of a risk on material outside of the paths they have beaten in the past if they want their reputations to grow.

Don't get me wrong here -- I like Joss. I saw Serenity on the first day and could hardly contain my excitement during the film. I also like Wes Anderson a great deal. I see no reason to hero worship either of them or to act like they can do no wrong. If they want to continue cranking out the same material, that's fine with me, too.

Hi, I'm Jimmy James. Now that we have been introduced, I'd like to step forward as a fan of both Joss and Trek. :D

I find this interesting because the movie Buffy The Vampire Slayer is one of my favourite guilty pleasures. It's because of the movie that I jumped at the series. But series left me cold and I quit after a few episodes. Then, due to all the hype surrounding it, I decided to give Angel a shot and it failed to connect with me at any level. (It's due to those two shows that I erroneously never bothered to watch Firefly when it first aired and only relatively recently fell in love with it on DVD.)

Now, as for Smallville it has scores of problems but when the writers get things right, they knock it out of the park. Would I rather the kinks be totally removed? Absolutely. But it's not so flawed as to my being unable to see beyond its flaws.

Ugh. I just wrote a reply, tried to erase something (ended up going pages back instead) and then when I went forward everything I wrote was erased.

Anyway.......

IMO, Whedon is a master story teller. I don't care if he happens to like certain genres. I doubt many people thought Whedon could pull off a Space Westers. :).

His greatest Buffy episodes transcend genre. My point all along was that someone like Whedon would be great for Smallville. You admitted he has a passion for certain genres, but said that he wouldn't be good for Smallville? Smallville is the genre that Joss is great at. Smallville is also a bit of a Buffy clone, so I don't get how he couldn't do something like Smallville.

I wouldn't want him running something like L&O or House (although I have no doubt that he could write episodes for the show if he chose to do so), so I agree with you there. Smallville, though, he'd be great for, IMO.

No, no, no. I'm not an elitist. I'm a bit of a sheep myself too sometimes, but I also keep an open mind unlike most people. I do believe that Whedon fans are enlightened. I have good reason to believe this too. I was closed minded to Whedon and Buffy for years, but someone got me hooked. I thought I was just crazy at first. Then I tried getting my best friend to watch, which was near impossible. His first comments were "I don't watch that stupid shit.". lol. It was not easy, but eventually he caved and watched it. Now he's a huge Buffy, Angel & Whedon fan (he even got his girlfiend hooked who thought Buffy was stupid as well).

Whedon and his shows actually open my mind and my friend's mind as well. Without having seen Buffy I can say there's no way me and my best friend would've ever even watched Smallville or other shows that we ended up liking/loving.

The fact that 4 people that were so sure that they would not like Buffy (some had seen episodes here in there too, including myself) and still ended up hooked is just amazing. The thing is it's not easy to open people's minds enough to give them a chance. So many people have already made up their mind already. This is one good reason why Joss Whedon doesn't have mass appeal. That masses aren't going to flock to watch something called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, based on a mediocre (at best) movie. I didn't and I almost missed out on amazing show, because of my closed mind. My best friend finally watched the Buffy movie after having seen all of Buffy the seires and he hated it. He couldn't believe how different it was. Funny thing, before I got into Buffy I thought the series would only be inferior to the movie. I know other people who thought this too. Again, mass appeal means squat.

Sorry, but I disagree and think that's bad logic (IMO).
Britney Spears has mass appeal. I guess she's a truly great singer and anyone with less appeal is a cult icon as well and not a great singer even if that person is clearly a superior singer.

Nice. Hyperbole. There are millions of fans throughout the world. If the Buffy cast show up in England they are treated like rock stars. The DVDs sell very well too I might add. Doesn't matter though. Mass appeal and sales doesn't necessarily say anything about quality. I've already learned that most people are closed minded to something like Buffy before even giving it a chance. I was and so were a lot of other people. It's just the way it is.

[quot]No need to take it personally ;-P This isnt a whedon thread after all. Sorry for the threadjack.[/quote]

I'm sorry for the threadjack too. How about we keep it just about Smallville from here on out.

I used to enjoy this movie a little bit as a guilty pleasure myself, but after seeing the show from beginning to end it almost disgusts me now. My best friend saw it for the first time not all that long ago after watching the series from beginning to end. He absolutely hated it and I rarely see him hate something like that. He was almost offended after seeing the series. I think he hated it because he knew it would've been far better had Joss been given full creative control.

good episode

i liked the part where chloe found out that pete knew about clarks secret and got to see his spaceship :D

too bad pete lives in chicago now. but he did win his match at the school swim meet

Really some people are too devoted to some things.

People who hate Buffy and Angel are right up there in my book with child molesters and terrorists , just joking guys, relax :)

People can love Buffy/Angel or can hate them, but there's not many people who aren't passionate one way or the other.

Now back to the Smallville episode, it was pretty good

Very decent episode - not the greatest, but satisfying.

And as for Smallville being a "Buffy ripoff" .... hell, I wish SNL could come up with lines that funny!

So this was my first ever episode of Smallville. I just got HD, and my DVR records two shows at the same time, so I thought what the hell, I'll watch Smallville.

Ahem....I don't see the appeal. Granted the gist of this thread is that it wasn't one of the best. This show, however, seems to be in the same league as "Jack of all Trades", "Buffy", and "She Spies".

Next weeks seemed more interesting. I'm not giving up yet. I thought I'd the new BattleStar Galactica, and I gave it a shot and I love it, so.....

And yes, Chloe (the hacker girl?) has nice cans.


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I like Smallville, but if this week was my first exposure to it I'm not sure I'd stick around. try to find this season's premiere, and rent the earlier seasons. someone else can probably give you a list of episodes that are key ones plot wise so that you don't have to rent every single disc of the previous seasons

Yeah, you're coming into the game VERY late - so it's no surpise you were unimpressed. Theres' a lot of backstory you've missed out on, that could greatly change your opinions on some parts of the show, but needless to say this was NOT the best epsiode to view first.

Battlestar Galactica, is only halfway through it's second season, and they just started re-aing the begining of season 2 a couple of weeks ago. Given that they pretty much bring you up to speed with what's going on with the story at the beinging of every epsiode - it's far easier to jump in as a newbie and catch up. Plus, the fact that it IS one of the best shows on Tv right now, doesn't hurt, either.

As previosuly stated, I'm a Buffy fan, but even I would hardly call Smallville a rip-off of it. If anything, it's more of a Roswell 'rip-off' - the highly superior show that it replaced on the WB.