well that makes sense where your opinion comes from.. and why its just your opinion, so pretty much pointless
if you dont like house, family guy, simpsons, malcolm in the middle, arrested development, 70s show, etc...

but the facts are.. overall for the season.. CBS dominates all.. nbc/abc/fox are all basically tied for 2nd
and Fox wins the most important 18-49 demo

so regardless of opinion.. the facts speak for themselves :lol:

Where did I dispute the facts? I've stated that I think FOX is in a precarious position because they rely so heavily on one program. No other network does this. This fact is one factor in why I think they are 2nd rate. Finishing 1st in 18-49 for one season is not enough to say that FOX has 'graduated' to the next level.

I never said I disliked FOX. I watch AD, That 70s Show, and O.C. (plus Tru Calling when it was on). I watched many of their shows in the past: 90210, Melrose, Fastlane, Titus, Boston Public among others.

I continue to stand my position about what House would do without the lead-in. For example, it lost 39% off AI's lead-in last week: that's pretty steep.

no other network relies on just 1 show?
cbs has 6 of the top 10 spots for the season
abc has 2 (wives and grey).. fox has 2 (both idol)

so if your saying that abc having a 2nd show in the top 10... or nbc not having a single show in the top 10.. puts them in much better position than fox.. i guess thats an opinion..

but the idea is to bring in ratings and win specific demos.. which is exactly what fox did.. they won the most prominent demo

I never said fox didnt have a 2nd rate feel.. I just said they have a great lineup of shows.. and from my prospective, they do.. as I mentioned, I dont watch anything on abc.. and really only watched raymond on cbs.. but i watch at least 5-7 fox shows on a regular basis.

of course.. now all the seasons are over.. so its craptastic choices on every channel

Alien Nation
Married With Children
The Simpsons
The X-Files
Millennium
Sliders
Buffy The Vampire Slayer
Family Guy
American Idol
24
NFL Football
MLB (including the World Series every year)

FOX often seems like the ONLY real network out there (although props to ABC for getting better this past year). They certainly have more of an imagaination in their programing than any of the other networks.

UPN is the one that doesn't seem like a real network!

Where does FOX finish in 18-49 without AI? Keep in mind, the loss of AI also hurts House and whatever is aired after AI on Wednesday (Stacked?).

That is what I am getting at.

Take away the best show from ABC (Desparate Housewives), CBS (CSI), NBC (ER) and the hit they take is not nearly as huge - overall or in the 18-49 demo.

You don't watch anything on an entire network and yet claim <i>House</i> may be the best show on television? What's wrong with this picture ... ;)

For the record, I watch <i>House</i>, and here's my differential diagnosis: House's comments are often hilarious, but the show is a painful and often predictable formula.

I watch all kinds of shit on Fox as I do with all the channels, but until they get that third hour, they're still second rate. Of course, they exist there alone, since the WB and UPN are third rate, and that's being kind to UPN. Tell me which demographic they own in the 10pm-11pm slot.

The truth is that only a second rate channel could get away with the way Fox programs shows, and I wouldn't want it any other way. As I said, we already have plenty of ABC/CBS/NBC. We don't need another. We're better off with Fox as a slightly second rate, trashy, oddball, Man vs. Beast channel that brings us all the shows the other networks would be terrified to air.

das

Buffy wasn't on FOX.

They didn't show much dedication to Sliders - it was on FOX for what - a season and a half.

:lol: Thank you.

I guess we'll find out next season how House does without the Idol lead-in.

I'm a little surprised <i>Idol</i>'s still such a juggernaut. I figured it would be losing steam by now. For the most part, it's the same thing over and over again, and you'd think their audience would get tired of the truly ridiculous amount of filler, but clearly they're not. :shrug:

das

I thought they did a good job of breaking a lot of patterns in the later episodes, starting with Chi McBride.

but the reason i dont watch anything on an entire network.. is because i tried it, and didnt like it.. or watched for awhile, and it just got old to me (wives).. So far, House has not gotten old to me.. But if it does, Ill be in here bashing it :D
but for now.. I think its a great show.. definitly better than the other options out there right now

Over/Under 17 million viewers (last week's number) per week. I got Under. Any takers on Over? ;)

More mysterious and unexplainable than anything on Lost. ;)

true.. but they havent really shaken up the formula.. and its a formula that works

i liked apprentice in the past.. but they kept fucking with it.. till this season, i couldnt even force myself to watch it.

17 million would get you right around the edge of the top 10.. Which would be a great spot for them.
a more realistic goal, would be 10m avg for next season.

monday night football didnt even get 17m

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,272|||season,00.html

Well the thread topic says does it "seem second rate" to you.

So I took that to mean opinions, not which is second rate in terms of ratings.

I've not found any shows on Fox I liked enough to watch regularly since X-files, Ally McBeal and Dark Angel (season one).

But I'm not a huge TV person anyway (have like 7 season passes on my Tivo) so my opinion is certainly not as informed as someone who's life revolves around TV. :D

I watch nothing on ABC save Monday Night Football. At least Fox has 2 games every other week, so it appears ABC is a third rate network, at best.

Wrong. That is what they said about 24..until they moved 24 out of tuesdays..and stuck it on Mondays..what happened? 24 got BETTER ratings and stands on its own.

The same could be said for your examples..Take away Housewives and Grey's anatomy doesnt make the top 10. Take away CSI and its mirad of spinoffs..and CBS loses a big chunk.

That's right - GA would be hurt, but the whole network wouldn't crumble. It only effects them on one night. CSI and its spinoffs are still 3 different shows, so that is not a fair comparison. Also, Grey's stands on its own better when you look at dropoffs: look at twikoff's link - the dropoff from DH to GA is 14.5 to 11.6; the dropoff from AI to House is 15.7 to less than 9.1 (it isn't in the top-20).

Take away Idol and FOX most likely finishes 4th in 18-49 because it props up 2 nights (not to mention when they air Idol specials).

So what? Just because 24 did it doesn't mean a different show can.

Was trying to disprove the notion that only reason house did well was because it had AI as a lead in..and since 24 I believe is the only other show that had AI as a lead in (that was quality to begin with). I think thats a valid point.

Damn...you're right. Sorry. Keep thinking Fox to WB, but it was WB to UPN.

House ran a full season and had repeats. Its average was much lower in the beginning as a new show and picked up steam when AI came on board. GA was midseason and never showed a repeat as I recall. This would help pad its season to date ratings.

Yes, without AI, Fox would be 4th in both categories probably and yet AI is still going on strong. Remember also, they went 3 nights in February during the boys v. girls segment. I really don't think this is comparable to ABC's who wants to be a millionaire disaster a few years back. That was on 4 nights a week and really skewed older. AI is billed as a once a year event viewing. I swear every year that I would only watch the sucky singers at the beginning but I always end up watching until the results. Even failures such as the AI children edition didn't damage the franchise. This show can go on for a long time and really help fox promote and build up other shows. If we can get more House, 24, etc. then all the better.