One more before bed last night:

Knives

I really liked the Londo storyline. It seems he's not only joined the wrong side in regards to the shadows, but also joined the wrong faction at home. He comes off as a decent guy who's making all the wrong choices. My guess is that he'll redeem himself in a big way at some point.

The alien storyline with Sheridan was kind of silly, and it's extremely hard to believe that he wouldn't have been briefed (formally or informally) about what happened to B4.

Overall, a passable, but forgettable episode.

That is one of my favorite lines in the entire series. To that point Vir has been characterized as this wimpy guy and then he just lets Morden have it (heh, heh, heh).

Well, as far as Sheridan's storyline goes, I once again refer to JMS's comments in the Lurker's Guide...

" Actually, the chronological order was *supposed* to be "Knives," THEN "Z'ha'dum." In "Knives" you get the reminder about Anna, then in "Z'ha'dum" you get the payoff. That was originally how they were intended to be aired, but there was *so much* CGI work and rotoscope work and creature animation involved in "Knives" that it got flopped to second in that order. So while it works *best* the way it was intended, it still works okay in this order."

I thought that the episode was pretty good, myself, if only for the Londo stuff. The viewer has known for a while that Londo's been on a dark road, as you said, but this is, IIRC, the first time we actually see that Londo himself realizes it.

Yeah, I read that it was out of order before posting, but it doesn't affect the actual part of the show that didn't work for me, the alien itself, which felt a bit contrived. And the way Sheridan figured it out was kind of corny.

In fact, the thing that the "out of order" tidbit really helped me with was in the Londo storyline, where he said he wanted to better keep up with the homeworld...but he had just been there in the previous episode when Vir covering for him. Now it makes sense that he had this duel and then went home to check on things.

For the record, I really liked the Londo part of this episode as well...and thought I'd expressed as much. I know I'm coming off as lukewarm about the show in my posts, but again, that is simply not the case.

I'm certainly interested. But like with the Buffy/Angel threads, it's hard to comment without spoiling. Don't think for a minute that there aren't people reading your thread. Since we can't watch it again for the first time, this is the second best thing (the best being watching with newbies).

B5 is very hard to comment without spoiling, as the show is so arc- and character-driven that commenting on your comments would oftentimes end up being a spoiler. Basically that makes the good stuff (the arc elements) hard to comment on, leaving us with commenting on standalone story elements.

P.S. Just finished watching the show in its entirety for basically the 3rd time with my wife who was a B5 noob last week. Took about a year and a half to get through them all. She doesn't like sci-fi with spaceships at all - she will NEVER watch Star Trek for example. Anyway she liked the show but not as much as my uber-fandom, as she was bored by the stuff like space battles. Oddly she liked corny eps like "Infection" that I detest because she likes cheesy horror.

Finished season 2 tonight, and I must say that the last few episodes were some of the best TV I've seen in a long time.

Confessions and Lamentations

The plague episode. A decent little standalone episode, but the most interesting thing is what appears to be a budding romance between Sheridan and Delenn...possibly.

Divided Loyalties

The return of Lyta, who after scanning Kosh became a psi-corps resistor...Ivanova is a telepath...and Talia Winters was a psi-corps plant.

Was it just my overactive hormones, or were they hinting at some girl on girl action with Talia and Ivanova?!?!

Another solid episode for a whodunnit.

The Long Twilight Struggle

WOW! Something happened this episode that RARELY happens to me on TV shows or even films. I actually was feeling visceral anger at Londo. This is easily my favorite episode so far. I just can't say enough about how this was executed.

The planet stuff and the Zathras reference were pretty good, and the Ranger stuff is just OK, but every scene with Londo and G'Kar was amazing...just amazing.

10/10...mostly for making me emote.

Comes the Inquisitor

Everything with G'Kar was great...everything with Delenn and Sheridan was filler...at least that's the way it seems. Jack the Ripper? Silly.

At any rate, this one wasn't my cup of tea, and if the current trend holds, the next one should be awesome...

The Fall of Night

Yup.

Londo and the Centauri are getting REALLY ballsy, earth is being run by fascists who are trying to appease the Centauri, the shadows have every reason to make their move now with their cover (and Kosh's) exposed.

I continue to want to kick Londo's ass, which says tons about him as an actor as I don't think the writing alone would have done it. It's kind of like when that chick sold out Kieffer in the first season of 24, but this time I actually give a crap...if that makes sense.

Great finale, and I'm looking forward to next season.

I always liked this one due to the fact that, like in Believers, the doctor wasn't able to save the day. Sure, he got the cure for the plague and will be able to help any other races afflicted by the disease, but he still wasn't fast enough to save the Markab.

Nope, you weren't imagining it.

This is definitely one of practically every fan's favorite episodes. One of my favorite scenes in the whole series has to be Londo at the window of the Centauri cruiser while the bombardment is going on, and you can see that "what have I done" look in his face, now that he's actually seeing the results of his actions in person.

Well, the main point of the Delenn stuff was to give a little more insight into her character, as well as shine a little more light on how the Vorlons do business.

Man, there's just so much more I want to say, but I really don't want to spoil anything. Have fun watching Season 3, though... heh, heh..

Yeah, Season 3 is when it really gets good.

Glad to see you're having so much fun.

Glad you're enjoying this so much, Chess. The interaction between Londo and G'Kar is one of the best things about this show.

And yes, Ivanova and Talia got it on.

I was in a hurry to get to bed last night, but thought I'd chime in again this morning with some general thoughts...

On the seasons:

Season 2 was MUCH better than S1, and they found whole new gear in the latter half of S2. My anticipation for S3 is pretty high, needless to say. To be honest, I might have given up after S1 had it not been for you guys. I didn't hate it or anything. Most of the episodes were passable, but I didn't find the last few eps of S1 very fulfilling at all. The end of S2 fucking rocked.

On the characters/actors:

G'Kar and Londo remain my favorite characters. Their acting is just head and shoulders above anybody else on the show, and their characters have made a much more interesting journey than any other character. Every second they are on-screen, the show is better for it.

Sheridan has grown on me in a big way. I love this thing he does where he's like "hey, look, I'm smiling and reasonable" but when he's rubbed the wrong way, look out. When Londo yelled at him in the council, my girlfriend yelled "No he didn't!", which tells me that Bruce has sold the role to some extent. At the very least, I find him more interesting than Sinclair.

Ivanova hasn't really done much yet and is a B-movie quality actress. If she'd made out with Talia a little bit on screen, I'd give a few bonus points. As it stands, she's still kind of 2D.

Garabaldi hasn't had much of an arc yet either, but I do like the actor.

Delenn is just Delenn...even with the hair. I really like her sidekick though. Along with Vir, he has definitely been more than expected.

I'm still not sure what to make of Kosh.

On the arcs:

I like that the earth conspiracy is turning more overt with the nightwatch and whatnot, but it's still the least interesting part of the show by far. It sort of reminds me of "V" with just a touch of Starship Troopers. Meh...it's nothing bothersome, but nothing groundbreaking either.

The arc with the Shadows, Londo, G'Kar, Sheridan, Kosh, and Delenn...wow...just wow! This sort of thing has never been done on TV...at least not that I can think of. Buffy/Angel sort of did it within their universe, and Farscape touched on some of the same elements, but B5 is going places those shows never considered (or at least it seems that way). And knowing that it's actually going somewhere and that they aren't just making it up as they go just to have it fall apart at the end (as opposed to say, the X-files) makes it all the more fulfilling. Also, the numerous hints and symbolism within the narrative make it a different experience if you're paying attention.

Great stuff!

What, no mention of Dr. Franklin?

I don't know if you've heard it already, or if it's even been mentioned in this thread, but JMS (the show's creator) actually had the basic ideas of the whole story in mind before work on the show even started, so there aren't any major plotlines that go unresolved or have the feeling of just being put together on the fly.

One thing about the earlier episodes, they're great to watch again after you've finished the series, if only to see exactly how far the characters have come since the beginning. In only two seasons, you've already seen Londo go from a bit of a buffoonish figure to someone who's darker and more troubled. There's also some great foreshadowing laid out early on that really is better appreciated after finishing all five seasons.

Franklin is *barely* a major character, and the episodes that he's prominent in don't tend to be my favorites. He's an interesting character, but like Ivanova and Garabaldi, he hasn't really done much yet.

When you revisit the show (and you will, I'm sure, judging by your response)...you'll notice all these crazy little foreshadowings and stuff that you totally missed on the first time through. Even mediocre episodes like Soul Hunter and TKO have bits snuck into them.

True. This is why I am enjoying the show quite a bit (watching Buffy/Angel with my wife still, almost done with S4/S1). The character arcs and the story arcs aren't nearly as organized and thought out the same way that JMS did, but I enjoy what of it they do. We were trading off (B5 for Buffy) and the weirdest thing would happen...

Quite frequently when we were watching we would have an eerie similiarity - as in, something one character in B5 says that is basically echoed by someone in Buffy/Angel right afterwards, or the basic ideaology/theme behind the episode wouldf be sorta similiar, or something. We started noticing it and joking about it as the 'theme of the night'.

Glad you're enjoying it so far... and yes, I too thought that the Season 2 finale kicked serious ass too. But when you see what's in store for Seasons 3 and 4, your jaw will drop. Just when you think it can't get any better..... it does.

Finished the first disk of S3…

Matters of Honor

Off to a good start.

A new character (I’ve seen him on the season boxes) and a new ride (pimped even) for Sheridan. Amazing that Sheridan was quick enough on his feet to take out a Shadow ship having never encountered one before. Also interesting that the Shadows know about the Rangers and where they train.

Earthdome and Psi-corps in league with the Shadows? That sounds about right, I guess.

I think we’ve reached a point where the visual effects are good enough that they aren’t even worth commenting on.

Convictions

This is one of the few episodes that I caught when the show was in its initial run, and I loved it. Still do. G’Kar and Londo in that elevator worked on several levels and was funny as hell.

Brother Theo looks like he might be a regular contributor to the show…and I like the premise for his being there.

Lennier has really grown on me, and I am exceedingly curious what Londo was doing on a Minbari transport.

Even the mad bomber story was pretty well executed.

A Day in the Strife

Another solid episode.

Franklin’s drug use had been evident for a while, but I wasn’t sure where they were going with it. Good scenes between him a Garabaldi.

The G’Kar story (like all G’Kar scenes) was terrific. I hate to see Vir go, since he seemed like Londo’s only remaining voice of reason…plus I was really starting to like the character.

I actually liked the “probe” idea too. Clever sci-fi.

Passing Through Gethsemane

Yet another great episode.

Brad Dourif can do no wrong. Every time he guest stars on a show, he just cranks the whole show up a notch. Remember his appearance on X-files (also a "capital punishment" episode).

This is a great little sci-fi story in the Phillip K. Dick vein, and it really resonated with me. Any time a TV show can make you think a bit, that is an accomplishment IMO.

Lyta is back again in just about the creepiest way imaginable…and with gills to boot. What is it with Kosh and telepaths? And was it me, or did it look like he was “wearing” Lyta as a suit? And didn’t he sort of look like that thing that took over Sheridan a few episodes back?

Too many questions…

Heh-heh-heh

See, you're going to have to remember all these concerns and questions you have until later, as a lot of the stuff you're wondering about does have a perfectly valid explanation, but I can't remember if it's been covered in the series yet, or if it was merely strongly implied (but hasn't been implied yet), etc...

Yup, and they keep getting better, too. It's not as much of a gigantic leap as it was from S1 to S3, though...


Well, he could have had business on Minbar, or had booked passage on the Minbari transport. Also, Garabaldi mentioned to G'Kar later in the episode that there was a Centauri ship just leaving as the explosion went off, so it's also possible that Londo was taking care of something regarding that ship, and was on his way back.

Well, I can say so far that every single question you've raised so far will have a definite answer by the time the series is over

That's answered in the Lurker's Guide for this episode. I certainly wouldn't call this a spoiler, but just in case:



From your very first post in this thread.

Seems you're going much quicker than you anticipated.

It's been a while, but I watched 5 eps over the course of the weekend...

Dust to Dust

Another Chekov episode. This one was pretty good for a standalone episode. I really liked the bit at the end about the Psi-corps sponsoring the distribution of dust. It reminded me of the CIA's "war on drugs" in the 80s with Iran Contra.

It looks like they are taking G'Kar in a new direction and he should be in the clique pretty soon. The stuff with him and Kosh was good too. The big question is what the Shadows (presumably) did to all the Narn telepaths. It seems like they are doing a pretty good job of rounding up the ones on earth.

Exogenesis

Shrug.

Messages from Earth

Yeah, this one was really good. Not my favorite episode yet, but probably top-5. The shadow ship on Mars is bothersome and indicates bigger things going on there. Sheridan not wanting to fire on his former ship was understandable, but we know he'll have to go there eventually.

Did Garabaldi say that he'd seen a Shadow ship before???

The nightwatch stuff is bothersome because I see so many elements of it today...but I won't delve into contemporary politics.

Point of No Return

Another exceptional episode. Man, this is getting really consistant!

The Londo/Vir stuff was great, except for the cute bit at the end. Clearly, one of them would have to become emperor before they had to worry about the other. G'Kar is gaining importance as well...presumably becoming sort of a MLK/Ghandi type.

The nightwatch element was good, and it's nice to see Zack finally make the right call...hopefully. Speaking of Zack, I'm noticing a lot of peripheral characters that really grow on me over time. I like the way they handle character's like Zack and the LT on the command deck to illustrate the choices everyone has to make.

But the best part was to see the part of the story that hadn't worked for me thus far come to a head (Earth conspiracy). The presentation and the lead-up was a bit heavy-handed, but the payoff was great. These guys really made their move in a big way this episode and are rounding up their "enemies" en masse. We now know that Sheridan and company will have to make a choice. It's obvious which choice they'll make, but it should be good to see how they get there...

Severed Dreams

...and man, was it. This was one of the best hours of television I've ever seen.

I'm really appreciating how much the addition of Sheridan brought to the show. Where Sinclair was always pretty much the same character, Sheridan has truly evolved over the past two seasons, and it really came to a head in this episode. His loyalties to Earth Alliance were not easily cast aside, but he eventually makes the right choice. I also liked how he tried to talk to the oncoming commanders and to appeal to their sense of reason. A lot of shows would have just said "Ok, now these guys are the "enemy" and that's that".

Watching Delenn bitch slap the gray council was great...leaving the warrior caste there to stew.

The dramatic tension they built over the course of this episode was terrific, and when Delenn showed up at the end, it was predictable, but it was all I could do not to cheer out loud. "Only one Earth commander has ever survived a confrontation with the Minbari fleet, and he is behind me. You are in front of me."

Kick. Ass.

General Thoughts

I'm about half way through, and this is getting really really exceptionally good. The last 3 episodes I've watched have been (as previously stated) some of the best TV I've ever seen. The shocking thing for me has been that these episodes haven't been terribly Londo or G'Kar centered, and they are the ones I usually get into.

I just saw things that I thought would take another season or two to resolve, so the story must be a LOT bigger than I previously thought. I really thought they'd drag that conspiracy business out a lot longer...must be some leftover angst from the X-files!

Whoever compared B5 to Lord of the Rings was right on. I think I just watched the Helm's Deep episode. I don't mean that as a bad thing...and it's certainly not a direct "rip off", but the story seems to be hitting a lot of the same beats as LOTR.

Bottom line:

You are in the thick of it now. "Only one Earth commander has ever survived a confrontation with the Minbari fleet, and he is behind me. You are in front of me." That's one of my favorite lines from this show. Believe it or not, it gets better.

That is, hands down, the most kick-ass line of the entire 5 years. I get chills even thinking of it now. Delenn brought some serious firepower with her. "Why not? Only one human commander has ever survived battle with the Minbari. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."

EarthForce response: "Uh, yeah, we left the oven on. Or the iron. Or something. Gotta go, bye."

And yes, Garibaldi did say he'd seen a Shadow ship before, but you'd need to read the comics to hear the whole story, although it was hinted at on the show a few times.

The Lt in C&C is named Lt. Corwin, after one of JMS' favorite writers, who I believe was blacklisted in the 50s. Joshua Cox plays him, a really nice guy, met him once.

And, even though this was mentioned a few days ago, just to confirm, no, you weren't imagining that Susan and Talia were in a relationship. Just how deep that relationship went emotionally, you'll find out soon.

Yeah, well, is there anyone here who's introduced a newbie to B5 who hasn't seen them get completely obsessed with watching them marathon style when it gets to season 3?

Best. Damn. Show. Ever.

Oh well, too late now.

I knew I dorked up the quote a bit, but I loved it too.

Garabaldi: It just seemed odd to me that he hadn't mentioned it before. I thought it might have just been an easy plot device, but I guess it was planned that way. I have to assume that I can trust the guy given Sinclair's vision in B-squared.

Corwin: Right, sometimes all the names of minor characters get overwhelming. The point was that I like how the portray the importance of decisions by Everymen (capital E) in a way that most shows of this genre do not.

Ivanova and Talia: Just wanted to make sure I wasn't being a perv when I thought I saw the beginnings of some hot lesbo action.