I actually think that the scene involving them from "Divided Loyalties" (season 2 episode) is left intentionally vague so that the audience can think "Wait, was that...? No, couldn't have been."

Nope. For more, visit your favorite slash fanfic web site.

Another marathon day yesterday with tons of revelations. Hell, I'm not even sure what major questions I have left at this point!

Ceremonies of Light and Dark

Nightwatch terrorists...sigh. The one thing that I really liked about the nightwatch arc was the fact that regular people were being turned into fascists (for lack of a better word). These guys were just wacko stereotypes. Kind of disappointing.

Ivanova was apparently rebirthed as a lesbian, which is pretty hot IMO. Franklin finally admits that he has a problem. Everybody gives up their uniforms and gets new ones...which I'm pretty lukewarm about.

The scenes with Delenn and the other ambassadors featured some good dialogue and acting...almost good enough to bail this episode out, but not quite.

Sic Transit Vir

Vir's list. Nice to see Vir get a little action. Also nice to see how the Centauri have dehumanized the Narn. I was amused by Londo's dislike of bugs and how that might relate to the shadows...and the Narn for that matter.

A Late Delivery from Avalon

King Arthur? Uhhhhhhhhh......yeah.

Ship of Tears

Hey, It's Bester again. And it looks like we have a weapon against the shadows...not to mention an explaination for why they killed off the Narn telepaths. Both plotpoints had been pretty well set up and were fairly predictable when watching the show marathon style, but that doesn't really diminish them at all.

The surprise for me was the way they used human telepaths as CPUs for their ships. THAT was some creepy stuff. The scene where Delenn told G'Kar the truth was solid too.

I really liked this episode, and I'm now pretty much sold on Bester. He's a creepy little bastard, but he's kind of funny.

Interludes and Examinations

Holy shit, they killed Kosh...sort of. Since he seems to be made up of energy or light, it might be a bit tougher to kill him as we see in the next couple episodes. At any rate, I like the way they handled it with him basically sacrificing himself.

Londo is being manipulated by Morden again, but that's not really news.

Very good episode.

War Without End, Part One & Two

FINALLY the payoff for Babylon Squared! Too many reveals to list and a relatively satisfying payoff for Sinclair. I said earlier that time travel isn't one of my favorite plot devices, but they seem to have thought this one out pretty well...except for Sheridan's little trips through time AND space. But those bits were most revealing, especially Londo's "keeper"...which I assume is what Morden has.

I admit that they got me with taking B4 into the PAST war and the whole Valen bit. I knew about Valen before they revealed it at the end, but not before seeing these episodes.

Anyway, in spite of my time travel paradox quibbles, this was an exceptional two-parter and it increases my appreciation for B squared quite a bit as well.

Isn't this the best show ever? ISN'T IT???!?!?!?!

I'm getting to the point where I'd have a hard time arguing otherwise.

I'd certainly put it in the upper echelon of sci-fi/fantasy/action TV with the likes of Buffy, Star Trek: TNG, and Farscape. At the current rate, it may surpass those shows very soon. I just hope it has a satisfying conclusion. It seems like people are sort of lukewarm about season 5, so I'm still a bit worried about that.

I also forgot to mention that along with the time paradox, I'm still kind of put off by the use of english in inappropriate circumstances. When Sinclair and Zathras went back 1000 years and started speaking english to the Minbari, who'd never heard of humans, I was really taken out of the moment.

Still, a brilliant show so far, and it may just turn out to be an all time favorite. If nothing else, I do plan to keep the DVDs, which is saying a lot.

Lukewarm about the first half, the second picks up quite a bit. And there's the very emotional final episode that wraps things up nicely. If you enjoyed first season, I doubt you'll be disappointed in the fifth.

I agree completely. I liked season 5, even if (for reasons you'll later learn, Chess) the first half didn't pack the same punch as previous seasons. It gives great closure to the whole story.

Chess, you're in the middle of a great ride.

Wow, you're blazing right along there, aren't ya? As others have said in this thread, it's pretty much a given that anybody who's watched the show up to this point is hooked by the time they reach Season 3.

It's funny, JMS wrote a lot of the Earth problem stuff so that it would almost be a throwback to the whole "red scare" stuff, but it is amazing how many parallels you can draw with some current events...

Yeah, it was a bit too cliche, but it's not too much of a leap to think that some people, especially veterans of the Earth-Minbari War, would have a more vehement hatred of aliens than others. The thing to remember is that humans were practically hours away from extinction at the hands of an alien race about 12 years prior, and while the Minbari did technically surrender, it was still pretty obvious that humans would have been wiped out if they hadn't. That's bound to leave some people with a bit of an inferiority complex.

Can't argue there. There was just too much about this episode that seemed off. There's still an episode you haven't seen yet that a lot of people regard as the worst episode of B5, but I personally think that Avalon is weaker. At least the other episode has a side story that's pretty good, this one (other than the insight into the exact start of the E-M War) was pretty much forgettable.

There's a quote from JMS somewhere in the Lurker's guide where he mentions how he does leave enough clues in the show for anybody who's paying attention to figure a lot of stuff out ahead of time. I always felt that that's what makes the show feel more solid. The "surprises" aren't just thrown at you out of left field, there's actually some build up to them.

Yup. When I first started watching B5, I was like you, and could only see him as Chekov. Now, whenever I see any old ST, I can only see him as Bester.

Well, it isn't really a paradox or anything. Remember in Babylon Squared, Sinclair and Garabaldi would have "timeflashes", which would basically show them what happened in their past or future. Garabaldi re-experienced a fight he had with Lise, Sinclair experienced the fall of Babylon 5 that would have happened if the events of WWE didn't take place, etc. In WWE, Delenn saw her future, with the "dropping the snowglobe" scene. The timeflashes had people experiencing events in different times and places, yet remaining where they were in the "present". Since Sheridan, Ivanova, etc were actually travelling through time instead of just being along for the ride like the workers aboard B5, they had to wear the time stabilizers to avoid being "unstuck in time". Once Sheridan's was destroyed, he started slipping into himself at different points, instead of just seeing it. So all that stuff on Centauri Prime wasn't him just appearing out of nowhere. Seventeen years after the start of his campaign against the Shadows, Sheridan will be on Centauri Prime with Delenn, and the Sheridan from WWE just occupied his body for the time you saw.

Of course, that's assuming that when the B5 people changed the future by taking B4 back to the past, that what you saw will happen either way, but I'm not gonna say...

Who said they were speaking english? Think of it like a WWII movie or something similar. When you have scenes in Germany, you'll see the Nazi officers and such speaking english, but that's just to avoid having whole scenes done in subtitles. As you saw in WWE, Sinclair knows how to speak Minbari, and it's entirely possible that Zathras speaks it as well. It's safe to assume that when you've got a scene where everybody's of the same race (Narn, Centauri, Minbari, etc), they're all speaking their native language.

Yeah, I'm going a bit faster than I thought I would. Twice now, I've come home from work and just watched B5 all night. Ironically, both times were the leadups to B squared and WWE. Also, disk 5 in the used season 3 I bought was a bit scratched up, so I wanted to be sure that it worked...and I rushed a bit to get to it.

yeah, substitute "scary" and "disheartening" for "funny" and "amazing" and I'm right there with you.

Point taken, but I would much rather have seen a couple of "normal" guys who thought they were patriots in those roles. It would have made for a much more dramatic and realistic show. That whole "footbone connected to the anklebone..." scene was just terrible. I would like to have seen a normal guy, like a Zack character who made the wrong choice in that role. Sheridan's anger scene at the end would have played a lot more dramatic as well. Anyway, just an observation.

We agree completely, I think.

Again, I agree completely. The fact that the show is sometimes predictable is NOT to its detriment. For lack of a better term, I'll call it narrative consistency.

I don't know. I think he's still Chekov, and it was still a mistake to cast him, but I'm at least enjoying the character now. I read one of those "JMS speaks" bits on the lurker's guide about Bester where JMS was complaining that the actor had been typecast....which to me implies that JMS would have hired him even if he hadn't been Chekov...which is IMO complete bullshit. Still, I like where they are going with the Bester character and the Psi-corps stuff in general.

It's not as big of a paradox as before, but not for the reasons you describe. The paradox was the circular continuity between the past and present in regards to Sinclair and B4. This sentence makes about as much sense as the time travel story: Sinclair would have never been in a position to steal B4 if it hadn't been stolen before he was in the position to steal it. But if I can forgive a paradox in the Terminator (Reese sent back in time by Connor to be his own father), I can let it go in a TV series. The reason the paradox is smaller now is that before I had assumed that they took B4 to the future, where it would either replace or coexist with B5, but with it (and Sinclair) safely in the past, the leap in logic is much shorter.

Thanks.

That's a reasonable position to take...and I will do so. It was just bothersome that Sinclair actually spoke to the Minbari in their own language, but Zathras did not.

Zathras could have spoken to the Minbari in their language just as much as Sinclair could have. If I remember correctly, I don't think we were ever told that Zathras couldn't speak Minbari, so it's actually pretty likely that both him and Sinclair/Valen spoke in Minbari in those scenes.

As far as the time thing goes, it's not really a paradox, unless I've got the definition wrong. I've always thought that a paradox was a situation where something couldn't happen, yet did. I can't think of an example offhand, but at worst, the whole Valen/B4 thing is just a closed loop (which the Vorlon in the beginning of WWE mentioned outright), not a contradiction.

paradox: two MDs or PhDs

I read this paper while trying to verbalize my problem and it pretty well describes my misgivings: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0109/0109029.pdf

It's all about something *causing* its own *cause*.

Your assumptions about time travel are based on our linear perceptions of how we think it should be and our almost certainly flawed perceptions of the Universe. If "time travel" does in fact exist, it likely exists in a manner outside our current ability to understand it, so to debate it much beyond its purpose as a dramatic device isn't particularly worthwhile. Still, while 99% of all time travel stories are miserable failures when it comes to even the most basic logic, at least the "closed loop" style presented by B5 (and many others) approaches a reasonable conclusion. It is the most logical approach to the concept and deserves credit for the attempt to avoid all the painfully bad cliches typically associated with these stories. It's science fiction. There invariably has to be some suspension of disbelief to tell these unique stories. I'd much rather it be in this manner than the crap people like B&B try to sell.

das

Keep in mind that people are lukewarm because they're comparing it to the exceptional material that came before. Taken on it's own, I would say season 5 isn't that bad. Just don't expect it to live up to the same standards as other seasons.

And as others have said, the second half is quite good.

Like I said, if I can get past it for Terminator, I can certainly get past it for B5. Also, I agree that the closed loop methodology is the best approach, and I agree about our limited perception of space time continuity.

However, I still have a tough time getting past us "winning" a 1000 year old war with a device that never would have been built had we lost said war. The only explaination is that there are infinite possible "branches" of time and that someone from a branch that *didn't* happen can go back to the source of their branch and make *actual* reality match their current *perception* of reality. In other words, building a loop in time is cool, but in this case, there would be nobody in the time continuum to build the loop barring alternate universes. I am also confused as to why the Minbari War couldn't have been prevented...but that's another story.

I just wish I could draw what I'm trying to say...

At any rate, I am perfectly capable of suspending disbelief and am happy to do so in regards to B5, as it is an exceptional series. I just have a busy brain and basic problem with time travel stories.

Here's some comments from JMS via the Lurker's Guide on the whole time travel thing that I thought you might find insightful on his method of thinking. I gathered you weren't reading it (although spoiler free sometimes it alerts you to stuff you might otherwise miss, so I think you're right in just watching it without reading the Lurker's Guide at this time).

But some useful Q&A about the time travel eps might be insightful for you.


From War Without End part 1, Lurker's Guide:




I particularly like this answer:


From WWE part 2, Lurker's Guide:

chess - I only discovered this thread today.

I love your descriptions and reliving the viewing with you. I may have to start watching it again.

and as for spoilers.... heh heh heh


it DOES get better. If you want, you may wish to watch Season 4, then the last episode of Season 5, THEN watch Season 5 - since indeed it is weaker than the other seasons due to almost cancellation.

Eh, while the last episode of Season 5 was originally intended to be the Season 4 finale when there was no guarantee of a S5, it'd be kinda silly to view it after S4. As others have said, S5 does get off to a bit of a slow start, but it does have some damn good moments and episodes. Not only that, but the S5 finale is such a good series finale I can't imagine watching it as any other episode than the last one.

"You have always been here"...pretty much explains it I guess.

Watched a couple tonight before watching the dreadful Star Trek Insurrection...and I've had a couple of drinks, so bear with me...

Walkabout

Old Kosh may still live...sort of...and new Kosh doesn't look nearly as cool. Psychics work against the Shadows (thank you Bester). Franklin needs to just be spaced.

Grey 17 Is Missing

For the "worst episode ever" this wasn't all that bad...certainly no worse than the return of King Arthur. Hell, I actually sort of liked the Delenn/Ranger One storyline. Franklin REALLY needs to be spaced. What a dick.

And the Rock Cried Out, Was That Really a Dummy in the Last Episode

Fun episode. Londo and G'Kar stole the show...as usual, and I LOVED the whole gospel music/death of Refa scene. Countdown to Z? Hmmmm....

No worries, I'm here for the duration...including the movies...and possibly a book or two.

Ooooh, you're getting close to the end of third season. HHH

You're lucky, Chess - you get to jump into seaon 4 right after you watch the finale of season 3. For those who watched it on TV during its furst run, they had to wait until the following season (that must have been hard!) For those of us who watched it as the box sets were being release, we had to wait a couple of months (that was hard!)

Ehh, it wasn't really that hard

http://www.tvtome.com/Babylon5/eplist.html

I added spoiler tags to the episode titles, I wasn't sure if chess has looked ahead at the titles or not. It might be hard to miss on DVD menus.

I didn't realize that the end of season 3 and the beginning of season 4 were aired so close together. I had to wait longer than you! Bastard! [Bando shakes his fist at Chew.]

I'll probably watch the last two tonight and *try* to wait till tomorrow to start season 4...in deference to bando, who apparently had to wait a while.

Truth is, I have a couple of rentals to knock out.

Sounds like it's quite the cliffhanger. I assume that the Shadows attack, but beyond that, something big/unexpected must happen. Possibly a traitor in our midst? Can't wait to find out.

I can't imagine it being a much bigger cliffhanger than the ones on Farscape. That show just never let up.